Homebrew PCBs

Hi group

Last summer I created a UV LED based exposure unit with which I had IMHO 
very good results. I uploaded a description and pictures to the 
following place in the files section:

Files </group/Homebrew_PCBs/files/> > Homemade_PCB_equipment 
</group/Homebrew_PCBs/files/Homemade_PCB_equipment/> > UV LED exposure unit

Below you find the descriptive text for your quick reference - enjoy!

Markus

<------- cut here --------->

UV LED exposer unit
-------------------

In this folder you can see pics of my homebrew, UV LED based double side exposure unit. The folowing features are maybe "special" enough to be noted:

- It generates very PARALELL light. This is important if you want to make small traces. Using this unit, I already sucessfully created boards with 5 mil traces using dry film fotoresist.

- There are two holes in each glass allowing the positioning shafts I use to allign the films against the PCB to remain. This allows me to leave the protection foil on the dryfilm resist, resulting in almost no wear out on the films.

- Obviousely this unit allows to expose both sides of a PCB at the same time. To do this, the upper box is simply placed on top of the lower. The glass is intentionally NOT mounted to the boxes. This allows me to fimrly press the two glasses together thereby makeing sure there are no air bubbles.

- The LED distance is 20mm square, distance from the LEDs to the PCB is ~65mm

The exposure time is longer than what's normal with tube oriented units. I'm almost exclusively working with dryfilm resist due to it's several advantages. There the time is exactly one minute.

Feel free to ask questions, otherwiese enjoy :-)

Markus

Very nice. A few questions
1. What are you using for the mask
2. Can you upload the datasheet for the LED's you are using.
3. Can you post parts lists and schematics for the driver board.
4. Do you have any pictures of boards you have done with it.

Again very nice. Congratulations.


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Markus Zingg <homebrew-pcb@...>
wrote:
>
> Hi group
> 
> Last summer I created a UV LED based exposure unit with which I had
IMHO 
> very good results. I uploaded a description and pictures to the 
> following place in the files section:
> 
> Files </group/Homebrew_PCBs/files/> > Homemade_PCB_equipment 
> </group/Homebrew_PCBs/files/Homemade_PCB_equipment/> > UV LED
exposure unit
> 
> Below you find the descriptive text for your quick reference - enjoy!
> 
> Markus
> 
> <------- cut here --------->
> 
> UV LED exposer unit
> -------------------
> 
> In this folder you can see pics of my homebrew, UV LED based double
side exposure unit. The folowing features are maybe "special" enough
to be noted:
> 
> - It generates very PARALELL light. This is important if you want to
make small traces. Using this unit, I already sucessfully created
boards with 5 mil traces using dry film fotoresist.
> 
> - There are two holes in each glass allowing the positioning shafts
I use to allign the films against the PCB to remain. This allows me to
leave the protection foil on the dryfilm resist, resulting in almost
no wear out on the films.
> 
> - Obviousely this unit allows to expose both sides of a PCB at the
same time. To do this, the upper box is simply placed on top of the
lower. The glass is intentionally NOT mounted to the boxes. This
allows me to fimrly press the two glasses together thereby makeing
sure there are no air bubbles.
> 
> - The LED distance is 20mm square, distance from the LEDs to the PCB
is ~65mm
> 
> The exposure time is longer than what's normal with tube oriented
units. I'm almost exclusively working with dryfilm resist due to it's
several advantages. There the time is exactly one minute.

> 
> Feel free to ask questions, otherwiese enjoy :-)
> 
> Markus
>

Hello javaguy11111,

  Sunday, January 13, 2008, 7:22:39 PM, you wrote:

> Very nice. A few questions
> 1. What are you using for the mask
> 2. Can you upload the datasheet for the LED's you are using.
> 3. Can you post parts lists and schematics for the driver board.
> 4. Do you have any pictures of boards you have done with it.


  Wow :)

  Would  you have all chewed up and swallowed, and you to have stomach
  full  without  any  effort?  Adnd  does  marcus  have  to  take  his
  underpants off for you to obserne his PCB's?

-- 
 Best regards,
 Zoran A. Scepanovic
 zastos@...

*********
Rules are for fools but a guide for the wise.
*********

Please be advised what was said may be absolutely wrong, 
and hereby this disclaimer follows.  
I reserve the right to be wrong and admit it in front of the entire world.



Local time: 23:35


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

1. Not sure what you mean. I use overhead foils that I print onto using 
an Epson Stylus C62. The PCB's are laminated using dryfilm fotoresist 
(in my case Ordyl Alpha 950)

2. The datasheet is now uploaded in the project directory ( 
Homemade_PCB_equipment -> UV LED exposure unig)

3. I could, but it's realy dead simple. Since I use 5 LEDs in series, 
~20V are requiered. I used a transformer that I took out of an el cheapo 
battery charger (a 4 amp part with a center tab actually rated for 12V 
but by not using the center I can draw 24V @ 2amps). That goes through a 
rectifier and then a traditional LM317T is used to regulate the voltage 
to 20V. Just downlaod the datasheet from national and look at the 
standard cirquitry. I think if you build such a unit you may want to 
change things or use some parts you have laying around. Well, if you 
really want I can upload the eagle schematics and board layout.

4. I so far only did boards with it for customers where I first would 
have to ask for the Ok to publish their board here. My boards are 
probably a bit special in that they are mostly 4 layers with solder stop 
mask etc. pp. So they look pretty much like any other profesionally made 
board you may have laying around anyways. However, what in particular do 
you want to see/know? I may can upload a part of a board only?

Markus

javaguy11111 schrieb:

>
> Very nice. A few questions
> 1. What are you using for the mask
> 2. Can you upload the datasheet for the LED's you are using.
> 3. Can you post parts lists and schematics for the driver board.
> 4. Do you have any pictures of boards you have done with it.
>
> Again very nice. Congratulations.
>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com 
> <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>, Markus Zingg <homebrew-pcb@...>
> wrote:
> >
> > Hi group
> >
> > Last summer I created a UV LED based exposure unit with which I had
> IMHO
> > very good results. I uploaded a description and pictures to the
> > following place in the files section:
> >
> > Files </group/Homebrew_PCBs/files/> > Homemade_PCB_equipment
> > </group/Homebrew_PCBs/files/Homemade_PCB_equipment/> > UV LED
> exposure unit
> >
> > Below you find the descriptive text for your quick reference - enjoy!
> >
> > Markus
> >
> > <------- cut here --------->
> >
> > UV LED exposer unit
> > -------------------
> >
> > In this folder you can see pics of my homebrew, UV LED based double
> side exposure unit. The folowing features are maybe "special" enough
> to be noted:
> >
> > - It generates very PARALELL light. This is important if you want to
> make small traces. Using this unit, I already sucessfully created
> boards with 5 mil traces using dry film fotoresist.
> >
> > - There are two holes in each glass allowing the positioning shafts
> I use to allign the films against the PCB to remain. This allows me to
> leave the protection foil on the dryfilm resist, resulting in almost
> no wear out on the films.
> >
> > - Obviousely this unit allows to expose both sides of a PCB at the
> same time. To do this, the upper box is simply placed on top of the
> lower. The glass is intentionally NOT mounted to the boxes. This
> allows me to fimrly press the two glasses together thereby makeing
> sure there are no air bubbles.
> >
> > - The LED distance is 20mm square, distance from the LEDs to the PCB
> is ~65mm
> >
> > The exposure time is longer than what's normal with tube oriented
> units. I'm almost exclusively working with dryfilm resist due to it's
> several advantages. There the time is exactly one minute.
> >
> > Feel free to ask questions, otherwiese enjoy :-)
> >
> > Markus
> >
>
>

It is up to you how much information you want to supply. If I or
someone else were to try and duplicate your work it helps to have as
much information as possible. Whether it is datasheets, schematics,
process, etc. That is why I ask all the questions. You are obviously
under no obligation to answer them.

I think the datasheet for the UV LED is probably the most important part.

Thanks,
Damon


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Markus Zingg <homebrew-pcb@...>
wrote:
>
> 1. Not sure what you mean. I use overhead foils that I print onto using 
> an Epson Stylus C62. The PCB's are laminated using dryfilm fotoresist 
> (in my case Ordyl Alpha 950)
> 
> 2. The datasheet is now uploaded in the project directory ( 
> Homemade_PCB_equipment -> UV LED exposure unig)
> 
> 3. I could, but it's realy dead simple. Since I use 5 LEDs in series, 
> ~20V are requiered. I used a transformer that I took out of an el
cheapo 
> battery charger (a 4 amp part with a center tab actually rated for 12V 
> but by not using the center I can draw 24V @ 2amps). That goes
through a 
> rectifier and then a traditional LM317T is used to regulate the voltage 
> to 20V. Just downlaod the datasheet from national and look at the 
> standard cirquitry. I think if you build such a unit you may want to 
> change things or use some parts you have laying around. Well, if you 
> really want I can upload the eagle schematics and board layout.
> 
> 4. I so far only did boards with it for customers where I first would 
> have to ask for the Ok to publish their board here. My boards are 
> probably a bit special in that they are mostly 4 layers with solder
stop 
> mask etc. pp. So they look pretty much like any other profesionally
made 
> board you may have laying around anyways. However, what in
particular do 
> you want to see/know? I may can upload a part of a board only?
> 
> Markus
> 
> javaguy11111 schrieb:
> >
> > Very nice. A few questions
> > 1. What are you using for the mask
> > 2. Can you upload the datasheet for the LED's you are using.
> > 3. Can you post parts lists and schematics for the driver board.
> > 4. Do you have any pictures of boards you have done with it.
> >
> > Again very nice. Congratulations.
> >
> > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com 
> > <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>, Markus Zingg <homebrew-pcb@>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi group
> > >
> > > Last summer I created a UV LED based exposure unit with which I had
> > IMHO
> > > very good results. I uploaded a description and pictures to the
> > > following place in the files section:
> > >
> > > Files </group/Homebrew_PCBs/files/> > Homemade_PCB_equipment
> > > </group/Homebrew_PCBs/files/Homemade_PCB_equipment/> > UV LED
> > exposure unit
> > >
> > > Below you find the descriptive text for your quick reference -
enjoy!

> > >
> > > Markus
> > >
> > > <------- cut here --------->
> > >
> > > UV LED exposer unit
> > > -------------------
> > >
> > > In this folder you can see pics of my homebrew, UV LED based double
> > side exposure unit. The folowing features are maybe "special" enough
> > to be noted:
> > >
> > > - It generates very PARALELL light. This is important if you want to
> > make small traces. Using this unit, I already sucessfully created
> > boards with 5 mil traces using dry film fotoresist.
> > >
> > > - There are two holes in each glass allowing the positioning shafts
> > I use to allign the films against the PCB to remain. This allows me to
> > leave the protection foil on the dryfilm resist, resulting in almost
> > no wear out on the films.
> > >
> > > - Obviousely this unit allows to expose both sides of a PCB at the
> > same time. To do this, the upper box is simply placed on top of the
> > lower. The glass is intentionally NOT mounted to the boxes. This
> > allows me to fimrly press the two glasses together thereby makeing
> > sure there are no air bubbles.
> > >
> > > - The LED distance is 20mm square, distance from the LEDs to the PCB
> > is ~65mm
> > >
> > > The exposure time is longer than what's normal with tube oriented
> > units. I'm almost exclusively working with dryfilm resist due to it's
> > several advantages. There the time is exactly one minute.
> > >
> > > Feel free to ask questions, otherwiese enjoy :-)
> > >
> > > Markus
> > >
> >
> >
>

When someone publishes something I think is really cool, I do not
hesitate to ask for details. 

If you want to blunder around reinventing the wheel, then be my guest.



--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Zoran A. Scepanovic"
<zastos@...> wrote:
>
> Hello javaguy11111,
> 
>   Sunday, January 13, 2008, 7:22:39 PM, you wrote:
> 
> > Very nice. A few questions
> > 1. What are you using for the mask
> > 2. Can you upload the datasheet for the LED's you are using.
> > 3. Can you post parts lists and schematics for the driver board.
> > 4. Do you have any pictures of boards you have done with it.
> 
> 
>   Wow :)
> 
>   Would  you have all chewed up and swallowed, and you to have stomach
>   full  without  any  effort?  Adnd  does  marcus  have  to  take  his
>   underpants off for you to obserne his PCB's?
> 
> -- 
>  Best regards,
>  Zoran A. Scepanovic
>  zastos@...
> 
> *********
> Rules are for fools but a guide for the wise.
> *********
> 
> Please be advised what was said may be absolutely wrong, 
> and hereby this disclaimer follows.  
> I reserve the right to be wrong and admit it in front of the entire
world.

> 
> 
> 
> Local time: 23:35
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Damon,

No worries, it was not me who wrote the other answer :-). I have no 
problem to disclose all information or else I would not have uploaded 
the stuff. in fact I did so in the hope it helps other interested 
parties. However, there's not that much to it actually that's why I 
thought not more information is needed. But you are right, the devil 
sometimes lies in the details.

What I can aditionally clarify here is that by "battery charger" in my 
previous post I meant a CAR battery charger. That's a good source for 
cheap transformers where I live (Switzerland). Surprizingly, if I buy a 
transformer in an electronics part shop, I pay more than if I buy such a 
car battery charger. I often buy some of them if they are on sale. The 
nice thing here is that with the bigger units, you really get powerfull 
tranformers which otherwise would be fairly costly (again, where I live, 
no idea wether they are cheap elsewhere) - plus usually an amp meter, 
some cabling fuses and a housing that can be reused as a plus :-)

The exposure unit boxes where choosen so as a double euro card could be 
exposed, but later on it turned out that buying that many LEDs would be 
too costly. The cheapest source for the LEDs I found so far is Reichelt 
in germany, (www.reichelt.de) where one LED is 1.4 EUR. They otherwise 
seem to be either fairly high prized or not available - at least where I 
can buy them.

HTH

Markus

javaguy11111 schrieb:

>
> It is up to you how much information you want to supply. If I or
> someone else were to try and duplicate your work it helps to have as
> much information as possible. Whether it is datasheets, schematics,
> process, etc. That is why I ask all the questions. You are obviously
> under no obligation to answer them.
>
> I think the datasheet for the UV LED is probably the most important part.
>
> Thanks,
> Damon
>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com 
> <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>, Markus Zingg <homebrew-pcb@...>
> wrote:
> >
> > 1. Not sure what you mean. I use overhead foils that I print onto using
> > an Epson Stylus C62. The PCB's are laminated using dryfilm fotoresist
> > (in my case Ordyl Alpha 950)
> >
> > 2. The datasheet is now uploaded in the project directory (
> > Homemade_PCB_equipment -> UV LED exposure unig)
> >
> > 3. I could, but it's realy dead simple. Since I use 5 LEDs in series,
> > ~20V are requiered. I used a transformer that I took out of an el
> cheapo
> > battery charger (a 4 amp part with a center tab actually rated for 12V
> > but by not using the center I can draw 24V @ 2amps). That goes
> through a
> > rectifier and then a traditional LM317T is used to regulate the voltage
> > to 20V. Just downlaod the datasheet from national and look at the
> > standard cirquitry. I think if you build such a unit you may want to
> > change things or use some parts you have laying around. Well, if you
> > really want I can upload the eagle schematics and board layout.
> >
> > 4. I so far only did boards with it for customers where I first would
> > have to ask for the Ok to publish their board here. My boards are
> > probably a bit special in that they are mostly 4 layers with solder
> stop
> > mask etc. pp. So they look pretty much like any other profesionally
> made
> > board you may have laying around anyways. However, what in
> particular do
> > you want to see/know? I may can upload a part of a board only?
> >
> > Markus
> >
> > javaguy11111 schrieb:
> > >
> > > Very nice. A few questions
> > > 1. What are you using for the mask
> > > 2. Can you upload the datasheet for the LED's you are using.
> > > 3. Can you post parts lists and schematics for the driver board.
> > > 4. Do you have any pictures of boards you have done with it.
> > >
> > > Again very nice. Congratulations.
> > >
> > > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com 
> <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>, Markus Zingg <homebrew-pcb@>
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Hi group
> > > >
> > > > Last summer I created a UV LED based exposure unit with which I had
> > > IMHO
> > > > very good results. I uploaded a description and pictures to the
> > > > following place in the files section:
> > > >
> > > > Files </group/Homebrew_PCBs/files/> > Homemade_PCB_equipment
> > > > </group/Homebrew_PCBs/files/Homemade_PCB_equipment/> > UV LED
> > > exposure unit
> > > >
> > > > Below you find the descriptive text for your quick reference -
> enjoy!
> > > >
> > > > Markus
> > > >
> > > > <------- cut here --------->
> > > >
> > > > UV LED exposer unit
> > > > -------------------
> > > >
> > > > In this folder you can see pics of my homebrew, UV LED based double
> > > side exposure unit. The folowing features are maybe "special" enough
> > > to be noted:
> > > >
> > > > - It generates very PARALELL light. This is important if you want to
> > > make small traces. Using this unit, I already sucessfully created
> > > boards with 5 mil traces using dry film fotoresist.
> > > >
> > > > - There are two holes in each glass allowing the positioning shafts
> > > I use to allign the films against the PCB to remain. This allows me to
> > > leave the protection foil on the dryfilm resist, resulting in almost
> > > no wear out on the films.
> > > >
> > > > - Obviousely this unit allows to expose both sides of a PCB at the
> > > same time. To do this, the upper box is simply placed on top of the
> > > lower. The glass is intentionally NOT mounted to the boxes. This
> > > allows me to fimrly press the two glasses together thereby makeing
> > > sure there are no air bubbles.
> > > >
> > > > - The LED distance is 20mm square, distance from the LEDs to the PCB
> > > is ~65mm
> > > >
> > > > The exposure time is longer than what's normal with tube oriented
> > > units. I'm almost exclusively working with dryfilm resist due to it's
> > > several advantages. There the time is exactly one minute.
> > > >
> > > > Feel free to ask questions, otherwiese enjoy :-)
> > > >
> > > > Markus
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>

Hello Markus,

  Monday, January 14, 2008, 12:42:52 AM, you wrote:

> Damon,

> No worries, it was not me who wrote the other answer :-). I have no 

%< (snip)

  If  you don't mind language that you do not understand, please visit
  http://zastos.blogspot.com  photos  are  worth  more  than  thousand
  words.

  UV LEDs can be found much cheaper at eBay, but the UV lamps are much
  cheaper :)

  No offence to the replier, but I do not prefer to chew everything to
  other people, Google might have some answers.

-- 
 Best regards,
 Zoran A. Scepanovic
 zastos@...

*********
Never let anyone drive you crazy when you know it's within walking distance.
*********

Please be advised what was said may be absolutely wrong, 
and hereby this disclaimer follows.  
I reserve the right to be wrong and admit it in front of the entire world.



Local time: 1:16


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[snip]
 > If you don't mind language that you do not understand, please visit
 > http://zastos.blogspot.com photos are worth more than thousand
 > words.

Unfortunately I in fact don't understand the language :) but - nice work!

 >
 > UV LEDs can be found much cheaper at eBay, but the UV lamps are much
 > cheaper :)

Hmmm, be VERY carefull. I just was reading a post from a guy in a german 
PCB forum who used such e-bay LEDs just to find out they did not worked 
as expected!

I had a UV lamp based unit already, and switched to the LED variant 
mostly for two reasons:

a) with the UV lamp, I had undercuts due to the way the unit was 
constructed (tubes were fairly close at the PCB) and the truly non 
paralell nature of such lamps.

b) the unit used four lamps which are fairly strong. Exposure time was 
only 10 seconds! The fact that the lamps were not going on absolutely 
synchronousely was leading to a non even exposure across the PCB which 
was almost uncontrollable.

With the LEDs you have an opening angle of only 20 degrees. One could 
even use a 10 mm LED pattern and put them into tubes to further narrow 
this and/or also increase the distance to the PCB. But again, it turned 
out very well. I'm sure though that one could also build an exposure 
unit with tubes or lamps that works equally well. It just apeared to me 
to be a very simple way for me to get consistant exposure with very 
repeateable results.

Markus

Markus Zingg wrote:

>
> > UV LEDs can be found much cheaper at eBay, but the UV lamps are much
> > cheaper :)
>
> Hmmm, be VERY carefull. I just was reading a post from a guy in a german
> PCB forum who used such e-bay LEDs just to find out they did not worked
> as expected!
>
>
>
>  





Hi Markus,

I bought 50 UV Leds from an eBay source in Hong Kong last year. One was 
faulty, but the remainder worked perfectly. I constructed an exposure 
unit and it has worked very well for me.

Regards,

Ross McKenzie
ValuSoft
Melbourne Australia

I used my moderator super powers to "fix" the folder name, ie I
replaced spaces with underscores so you can easily link to the folder:
<http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs/files/Homemade_PCB_equipment/UV_LED_exposure_unit/>

Steve Greenfield


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "javaguy11111"
<javaguy11111@...> wrote:
>
> It is up to you how much information you want to supply. If I or
> someone else were to try and duplicate your work it helps to have as
> much information as possible. Whether it is datasheets, schematics,
> process, etc. That is why I ask all the questions. You are obviously
> under no obligation to answer them.
> 
> I think the datasheet for the UV LED is probably the most important
part.

> 
> Thanks,
> Damon
> 
>

Hi Steve

Thanks for the fixes, it's apreciated.

Markus

Steve schrieb:

>
> I used my moderator super powers to "fix" the folder name, ie I
> replaced spaces with underscores so you can easily link to the folder:
> <http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs/files/Homemade_PCB_equipment/UV_LED_exposure_unit/ 
> <http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs/files/Homemade_PCB_equipment/UV_LED_exposure_unit/>>
>
> Steve Greenfield
>

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Zoran A. Scepanovic"
<zastos@...> wrote:
>
> Hello javaguy11111,
> 
>   Sunday, January 13, 2008, 7:22:39 PM, you wrote:
> 
> > Very nice. A few questions
> > 1. What are you using for the mask
> > 2. Can you upload the datasheet for the LED's you are using.
> > 3. Can you post parts lists and schematics for the driver board.
> > 4. Do you have any pictures of boards you have done with it.
> 
> 
>   Wow :)
> 
>   Would  you have all chewed up and swallowed, and you to have stomach
>   full  without  any  effort?  Adnd  does  marcus  have  to  take  his
>   underpants off for you to obserne his PCB's?
> 
> -- 
>  Best regards,
>  Zoran A. Scepanovic
>  zastos@...

I saw nothing wrong with those questions. That is what we are all
(most) here for.

You don't seem to like answering questions. That's fine. But then why
post grouchy "I don't like to answer questions" posts? Just don't respond.

Steve Greenfield
moderator

Wow Steve. Thats a blast at the past. :-)

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Steve" <alienrelics@...> wrote:
>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Zoran A. Scepanovic"
> <zastos@> wrote:
> >
> > Hello javaguy11111,
> > 
> >   Sunday, January 13, 2008, 7:22:39 PM, you wrote:
> > 
> > > Very nice. A few questions
> > > 1. What are you using for the mask
> > > 2. Can you upload the datasheet for the LED's you are using.
> > > 3. Can you post parts lists and schematics for the driver board.
> > > 4. Do you have any pictures of boards you have done with it.
> > 
> > 
> >   Wow :)
> > 
> >   Would  you have all chewed up and swallowed, and you to have stomach
> >   full  without  any  effort?  Adnd  does  marcus  have  to  take  his
> >   underpants off for you to obserne his PCB's?
> > 
> > -- 
> >  Best regards,
> >  Zoran A. Scepanovic
> >  zastos@
> 
> I saw nothing wrong with those questions. That is what we are all
> (most) here for.
> 
> You don't seem to like answering questions. That's fine. But then why
> post grouchy "I don't like to answer questions" posts? Just don't
respond.

> 
> Steve Greenfield
> moderator
>