Homebrew PCBs

Hi all!! I'm trying to make some pcb's using the tonner transfer 
method. After ironing for about 6 minutes, the paper isn't completely 
glued on the board. The board was cleaned with acetone so I guess that 
the paper I'm using isn't appropriate.
I know Staples paper work fine but I live in France and there isn't 
Staples products here :-((. 
Does anybody knows what paper commercialized in France works for this 
method? Or I must iron more until the paper completely melts on the 
board?

THANKS!!!!!

6 minutes??
as soon the board has got temperature, no purpose of doing any longer...

use any glossy paper like your mail store catalog...
toner not sticking can be dirty board or unsuitable toner (try another).





--- On Tue, 10/21/08, Ernesto <ernesto_cordoba@...> wrote:

> Hi all!! I'm trying to make some pcb's using the
> tonner transfer 
> method. After ironing for about 6 minutes, the paper
> isn't completely 
> glued on the board. The board was cleaned with acetone so I
> guess that 
> the paper I'm using isn't appropriate.
> I know Staples paper work fine but I live in France and
> there isn't 
> Staples products here :-((. 
> Does anybody knows what paper commercialized in France
> works for this 
> method? Or I must iron more until the paper completely
> melts on the 
> board?
> 
> THANKS!!!!!

> 6 minutes??
> as soon the board has got temperature, no purpose of doing any 
longer...
> 
> use any glossy paper like your mail store catalog...
> toner not sticking can be dirty board or unsuitable toner (try 
another).
> 
If you use printed matter weither glossy or not wouldnt the ink from 
the picture or text also transfer? I have never tried it. Have any 
pictures? I'm interested, what catalog did you use?

Brian

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Ernesto" <ernesto_cordoba@...>
wrote:
>
> Hi all!! I'm trying to make some pcb's using the tonner transfer 
> method. After ironing for about 6 minutes, the paper isn't completely 
> glued on the board. The board was cleaned with acetone so I guess that 
> the paper I'm using isn't appropriate.
> I know Staples paper work fine but I live in France and there isn't 
> Staples products here :-((. 
> Does anybody knows what paper commercialized in France works for this 
> method? Or I must iron more until the paper completely melts on the 
> board?
> 
> THANKS!!!!!
>

I have use "Data Scan Glossy Photo Paper" it is very good for toner
transfer method. it leave thick surface above the toner, after
ironing. so it can prevent unconnected tracks during etching proccess

There used to be some laser printers that used "fuser oil" (silicone oil) in
the fuser unit.
If someone ever tries to use one of those he would probably not get adhesion
either.

Now i'm not saying you have such a printer - just one more option to check.

Basically there are just 4 possible reasons:

Contamination on toner surface.
Contamination on board surface.
Not enough heat.
No contact between toner and board during heating (unlikely).

6 minutes is plenty long.

Even with the wrong paper you should still get the same adhesion to the
copper, only the paper won't come off.

ST


On Tue, Oct 21, 2008 at 9:57 PM, Ernesto <ernesto_cordoba@...> wrote:

> Hi all!! I'm trying to make some pcb's using the tonner transfer
> method. After ironing for about 6 minutes, the paper isn't completely
> glued on the board. The board was cleaned with acetone so I guess that
> the paper I'm using isn't appropriate.
> I know Staples paper work fine but I live in France and there isn't
> Staples products here :-((.
> Does anybody knows what paper commercialized in France works for this
> method? Or I must iron more until the paper completely melts on the
> board?
>
> THANKS!!!!!
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I live in Belgium and the best I've found until now is the Premium Plus HP Photo Paper higi-gloss for inkjet. It's more expensive than any other paper but it works really well, down to a few mils (200um). With a laminator set at 150°C, it needs 10 passes, let it cool down (a few minutes) then peel off carefully. You don't need to soak it !

--- On Tue, 10/21/08, Ernesto <ernesto_cordoba@...> wrote:

From: Ernesto <ernesto_cordoba@...>
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Need hint on tonner transfer paper
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, October 21, 2008, 7:57 PM










    
            Hi all!! I'm trying to make some pcb's using the tonner transfer 

method. After ironing for about 6 minutes, the paper isn't completely 

glued on the board. The board was cleaned with acetone so I guess that 

the paper I'm using isn't appropriate.

I know Staples paper work fine but I live in France and there isn't 

Staples products here :-((. 

Does anybody knows what paper commercialized in France works for this 

method? Or I must iron more until the paper completely melts on the 

board?



THANKS!!!!!




      

    
    
	
	 
	
	








	


	
	


      

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

lets we talk about the cost in dollar, so we know the best and the
cheapest one. I have "data print glossy paper" with good result for
toner transfer, it cost $2.3 /pack. one pack have 20 sheets..  

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Michel Baguet <bagmik@...> 
wrote:
>
> I live in Belgium and the best I've found until now is the Premium
Plus HP Photo Paper higi-gloss for inkjet. It's more expensive than
any other paper but it works really well, down to a few mils (200um).
With a laminator set at 150°C, it needs 10 passes, let it cool down (a
few minutes) then peel off carefully. You don't need to soak it !
> 
> --- On Tue, 10/21/08, Ernesto <ernesto_cordoba@...> wrote:
> From: Ernesto <ernesto_cordoba@...>
> Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Need hint on tonner transfer paper
> To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Tuesday, October 21, 2008, 7:57 PM
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>     
>             Hi all!! I'm trying to make some pcb's using the tonner
transfer 

> 
> method. After ironing for about 6 minutes, the paper isn't completely 
> 
> glued on the board. The board was cleaned with acetone so I guess that 
> 
> the paper I'm using isn't appropriate.
> 
> I know Staples paper work fine but I live in France and there isn't 
> 
> Staples products here :-((. 
> 
> Does anybody knows what paper commercialized in France works for this 
> 
> method? Or I must iron more until the paper completely melts on the 
> 
> board?
> 
> 
> 
> THANKS!!!!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
>       
> 
>     
>     
> 	
> 	 
> 	
> 	
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 	
> 
> 
> 	
> 	
> 
> 
>       
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Ernesto" <ernesto_cordoba@...>
wrote:
>
> Hi all!! I'm trying to make some pcb's using the tonner transfer 
> method. After ironing for about 6 minutes, the paper isn't completely 
> glued on the board. The board was cleaned with acetone so I guess that 
> the paper I'm using isn't appropriate.
> I know Staples paper work fine but I live in France and there isn't 
> Staples products here :-((. 
> Does anybody knows what paper commercialized in France works for this 
> method? Or I must iron more until the paper completely melts on the 
> board?
> 
> THANKS!!!!!
>

MANY THANKS Herbert, Brian, Stephan, Michel, fan_nastelroy for your
answers!!!
In order to answer you all:

I've made other trys, with the same paper EPSON GLOSSY PHOTO PAPER
225g/m but this time I took away a layer of the paper BEFORE ironing,
to make it thinner.
After ironing 5min the transfer is perfect BUT :-)) lots of gelatine
is sticked to the copper (I don't know if that's normal)
I'll try to soke it more time to see if the gelatine dissapear in the
water. 

Ernesto

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Brian" <blue_eagle74@...> wrote:
>
> > 6 minutes??
> > as soon the board has got temperature, no purpose of doing any 
> longer...
> > 
> > use any glossy paper like your mail store catalog...
> > toner not sticking can be dirty board or unsuitable toner (try 
> another).
> > 
> If you use printed matter weither glossy or not wouldnt the ink from 
> the picture or text also transfer? I have never tried it. Have any 
> pictures? I'm interested, what catalog did you use?
> 
> Brian
>
Hi Brian I've tried also with glossy magazine paper but I'couldn't get
good results, lots of tracks cuted, and the tonner sticks out easily,
but perhaps I'm not using the convenient magazine...

> >
> 
> I have use "Data Scan Glossy Photo Paper" it is very good for toner
> transfer method. it leave thick surface above the toner, after
> ironing. so it can prevent unconnected tracks during etching proccess
>

Hi!! Are you sure that it's commercialized in France? I couldn't find
it in the internet...

Ernesto

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan"
<stefan_trethan@...> wrote:
>
> There used to be some laser printers that used "fuser oil" (silicone
oil) in
> the fuser unit.
> If someone ever tries to use one of those he would probably not get
adhesion
> either.
> 
> Now i'm not saying you have such a printer - just one more option to
check.
> 
> Basically there are just 4 possible reasons:
> 
> Contamination on toner surface.
> Contamination on board surface.
> Not enough heat.
> No contact between toner and board during heating (unlikely).
> 
> 6 minutes is plenty long.
> 
> Even with the wrong paper you should still get the same adhesion to the
> copper, only the paper won't come off.
> 
> ST
> 
> 

Hi Stephan!! I didn't use a laser printer, I've made photocopies with
a recent machine.
I'll review the cleaning staeps in order to discard dirty elements.

Thanks again!!

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Michel Baguet <bagmik@...> wrote:
>
> I live in Belgium and the best I've found until now is the Premium
Plus HP Photo Paper higi-gloss for inkjet. It's more expensive than
any other paper but it works really well, down to a few mils (200um).
With a laminator set at 150°C, it needs 10 passes, let it cool down (a
few minutes) then peel off carefully. You don't need to soak it !
> 
> --- On Tue, 10/21/08, Ernesto <ernesto_cordoba@...> wrote:
> From: Ernesto <ernesto_cordoba@...>
> Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Need hint on tonner transfer paper
> To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Tuesday, October 21, 2008, 7:57 PM

Hi Michel and thanks! I don't have a laminator, just an iron, but I'll
try the paper you recommend!!

Thanks!

aha! photocopier....
the chances of toner (surface) mishandling are very high!
try Epson glossy photo paper, works for me. do NOT handle the paper before or after printing. NEVER 'touch' it. drop into bowl with warm water while still hot. some detergent may help. be patient!
it is normal to have some white residue after soaking. try brushing while wet, even the thumb will do.


--- On Thu, 10/23/08, Ernesto <ernesto_cordoba@...> wrote:
> > There used to be some laser printers that used
> "fuser oil" (silicone
> oil) in
> > the fuser unit.
> > If someone ever tries to use one of those he would
> probably not get
> adhesion
> > either.
> > 
> > Basically there are just 4 possible reasons:
> > 
> > Contamination on toner surface.
---------------------------------

> > Contamination on board surface.
> > Not enough heat.
> > No contact between toner and board during heating
> (unlikely).
> 
> Hi Stephan!! I didn't use a laser printer, I've
> made photocopies with
> a recent machine.
> I'll review the cleaning staeps in order to discard
> dirty elements.
> 
> Thanks again!!

I have found that pressure is as important as heat.
Apply a lot of pressure while during the ironing process.
Everyone talks about heat, but no body mentions pressure.
Also, preheat the PCB with the iron before you apply the laser copy.
Use a paper towel between the laser copy and the iron and/or copper clad.
Press hard.
I get very, very good results with virtually every glossy paper that
has been mentioned here.

Roland F. Harriston, PD
********************


Herbert E. Plett wrote:

> aha! photocopier. ...
> the chances of toner (surface) mishandling are very high!
> try Epson glossy photo paper, works for me. do NOT handle the paper 
> before or after printing. NEVER 'touch' it. drop into bowl with warm 
> water while still hot. some detergent may help. be patient!
> it is normal to have some white residue after soaking. try brushing 
> while wet, even the thumb will do.
>
> --- On Thu, 10/23/08, Ernesto <ernesto_cordoba@ yahoo.fr 
> <mailto:ernesto_cordoba%40yahoo.fr>> wrote:
> > > There used to be some laser printers that used
> > "fuser oil" (silicone
> > oil) in
> > > the fuser unit.
> > > If someone ever tries to use one of those he would
> > probably not get
> > adhesion
> > > either.
> > >
> > > Basically there are just 4 possible reasons:
> > >
> > > Contamination on toner surface.
> ------------ --------- --------- ---
> > > Contamination on board surface.
> > > Not enough heat.
> > > No contact between toner and board during heating
> > (unlikely).
> >
> > Hi Stephan!! I didn't use a laser printer, I've
> > made photocopies with
> > a recent machine.
> > I'll review the cleaning staeps in order to discard
> > dirty elements.
> >
> > Thanks again!!
>
> 
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>No virus found in this incoming message.
>Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com 
>Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.8.2/1742 - Release Date: 10/23/2008 3:29 PM
>
>  
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- On Fri, 10/24/08, Roland Harriston <rolohar@...> wrote:
> I have found that pressure is as important as heat.

oh, sure

> Use a paper towel between the laser copy and the iron

this is perhaps the most important trick....

Hi Ernesto,

I got the same problem for my first tries.
On the print side, the paper is covered with a thin sheet of plastic to avoid the paper sucking the ink and that plastic is coated with clay, this is where the ink stay. It's the clay that  allow the toner to be released. The thin sheet of plastic is the one that can stick in the fuser of a laser printer, two passes in the laser printer is OK (to get ticker toner) but the third can kill the fuser.
If the paper is not dry enough, you can get bubbles in the pastic sheet. Ironing at a high temp. for too long can cause the plastic sheet to stick to the copper and it is very hard to remove, even if soaking for a night.
Buy a laminator, it's far better than an iron because of uniform pressure and temp.

--- On Thu, 10/23/08, Ernesto <ernesto_cordoba@...> wrote:




MANY THANKS Herbert, Brian, Stephan, Michel, fan_nastelroy for your

answers!!!

In order to answer you all:



I've made other trys, with the same paper EPSON GLOSSY PHOTO PAPER

225g/m but this time I took away a layer of the paper BEFORE ironing,

to make it thinner.

After ironing 5min the transfer is perfect BUT :-)) lots of gelatine

is sticked to the copper (I don't know if that's normal)

I'll try to soke it more time to see if the gelatine dissapear in the

water. 



Ernesto

 
	 
	
	








	


	
	


      

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Ernesto" <ernesto_cordoba@...>
wrote:
>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Ernesto" <ernesto_cordoba@>
> wrote:
> >
> > Hi all!! I'm trying to make some pcb's using the tonner transfer 
> > method. After ironing for about 6 minutes, the paper isn't completely 
> > glued on the board. The board was cleaned with acetone so I guess
that 
> > the paper I'm using isn't appropriate.
> > I know Staples paper work fine but I live in France and there isn't 
> > Staples products here :-((. 
> > Does anybody knows what paper commercialized in France works for this 
> > method? Or I must iron more until the paper completely melts on the 
> > board?
> > 
> > THANKS!!!!!
> >
> 
> MANY THANKS Herbert, Brian, Stephan, Michel, fan_nastelroy for your
> answers!!!
> In order to answer you all:
> 
> I've made other trys, with the same paper EPSON GLOSSY PHOTO PAPER
> 225g/m but this time I took away a layer of the paper BEFORE ironing,
> to make it thinner.
> After ironing 5min the transfer is perfect BUT :-)) lots of gelatine
> is sticked to the copper (I don't know if that's normal)
> I'll try to soke it more time to see if the gelatine dissapear in the
> water. 
> 
> Ernesto
>

Thanks again for your answers and sorry for the delay!!
The last news: I was able to remove the gelatine from the copper using
a needle, it comes off very easely leaving the tonner sticked to the
board, although we must go very carefully with it I was able to get
tracks and spaces of 0,35 mm!!

Thanks again to you all!!

Ernesto