Homebrew PCBs

Dear Sir,
 
We are the exclusive representative of DTG Impression Technology and we use this printer to print on tshirts. The idea of board printing (to make a circuit) came to our mind because we believe that the process of tshirt printing is the same as board printing. Our printer can print on any kind of surface like garment, glass, textile, wood, board etc.
 
We do not have the knowledge of board printing and it is highly appreciated if you give me the answers to the following inquiries:
 
1- Our printer CAN PRINT simply on any kind of board but we do not know what kind of ink should we use to make sure that this ink is acid-resistant.
After printing we must put the board in HCL acid and the ink MUST NOT SOLVE IN ACID and we want to know which kind of ink is suitable for our purpose.
 
2- Which kind of print head is compatible for that kind of ink? We now use Epson Stylus Photo R2400 or 1800. Are these heads suitable for us or not? If not what print head do you suggest?
 
Thank you for your urgent response.
 
Sincerely,


Mohamad Amiri
Head of R&D Department 
Parin Eghlim Parsian Co. (PEP CO) 
Address: Suite 6A, NO 8, Second Dead Alley, Kouhe Nour St., Motahhari Ave., Tehran, Iran. 
Tell: +98 21 8854 0072-4 
Fax: +98 21 8873 6751 
Direct Cell Phone: +98 912 676 56 88 (or +98 935 564 32 92) 
E-mail: parin_eghlim_parsian@...


      

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Good evening Mohamad,

Some good results were achieved with the MISPRO inks
<http://www.inksupply.com/arcink_mispro.cfm>, the yellow color
performed best.
As far as i know only piezo type printheads will work.

The important thing is you need to cure this ink with heat after
printing (for example in an oven or on a heated metal plate). The ink
will darken during this process. The cured ink is VERY tough and will
stand up to HCL just fine. Without curing, it won't resist the
etchant.

Another big challenge is to get good 100% coverage on the copper. The
ink drops must form a closed surface, no gaps or holes. On paper this
does not matter. It can help to wipe the surface of the copper with
car break fluid or propylene glycol, this acts as a wetting agent.
Also you will have to play with the printer settings to get the best
results.

You will have to try. Possibly with your printers you could also use
more advanced inks that do not need curing, or maybe UV curing inks.
But the MISPRO yellow will give you a starting point.



ST


On Wed, Feb 4, 2009 at 9:46 PM, Parin Eghlim Parsian (PEP CO.)
<parin_eghlim_parsian@...> wrote:

>
>
> Dear Sir,
>
> We are the exclusive representative of DTG Impression Technology and we use this printer to print on tshirts. The idea of board printing (to make a circuit) came to our mind because we believe that the process of tshirt printing is the same as board printing. Our printer can print on any kind of surface like garment, glass, textile, wood, board etc.
>
> We do not have the knowledge of board printing and it is highly appreciated if you give me the answers to the following inquiries:
>
> 1- Our printer CAN PRINT simply on any kind of board but we do not know what kind of ink should we use to make sure that this ink is acid-resistant.
> After printing we must put the board in HCL acid and the ink MUST NOT SOLVE IN ACID and we want to know which kind of ink is suitable for our purpose.
>
> 2- Which kind of print head is compatible for that kind of ink? We now use Epson Stylus Photo R2400 or 1800. Are these heads suitable for us or not? If not what print head do you suggest?
>
> Thank you for your urgent response.
>
> Sincerely,
>
>
> Mohamad Amiri
> Head of R&D Department
> Parin Eghlim Parsian Co. (PEP CO)
> Address: Suite 6A, NO 8, Second Dead Alley, Kouhe Nour St., Motahhari Ave., Tehran, Iran.
> Tell: +98 21 8854 0072-4
> Fax: +98 21 8873 6751
> Direct Cell Phone: +98 912 676 56 88 (or +98 935 564 32 92)
> E-mail: parin_eghlim_parsian@...
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

Dear Stefan,
 
Thank you ever so much for your kind guides. So I will certainely start with MISPRO inks and I will make you know the results.
 
Regards,


Mohamad Amiri
Head of R&D Department 
Parin Eghlim Parsian Co. (PEP CO) 
Address: Suite 6A, NO 8, Second Dead Alley, Kouhe Nour St., Motahhari Ave., Tehran, Iran. 
Tell: +98 21 8854 0072-4 
Fax: +98 21 8873 6751 
Direct Cell Phone: +98 912 676 56 88 (or +98 935 564 32 92) 
E-mail: parin_eghlim_parsian@...

--- On Thu, 2/5/09, Stefan Trethan <stefan_trethan@gmx.at> wrote:

From: Stefan Trethan <stefan_trethan@...>
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] What kind of acid-resistant ink should we use with what brand of Epson Heads?
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, February 5, 2009, 12:41 AM






Good evening Mohamad,

Some good results were achieved with the MISPRO inks
<http://www.inksuppl y.com/arcink_ mispro.cfm>, the yellow color
performed best.
As far as i know only piezo type printheads will work.

The important thing is you need to cure this ink with heat after
printing (for example in an oven or on a heated metal plate). The ink
will darken during this process. The cured ink is VERY tough and will
stand up to HCL just fine. Without curing, it won't resist the
etchant.

Another big challenge is to get good 100% coverage on the copper. The
ink drops must form a closed surface, no gaps or holes. On paper this
does not matter. It can help to wipe the surface of the copper with
car break fluid or propylene glycol, this acts as a wetting agent.
Also you will have to play with the printer settings to get the best
results.

You will have to try. Possibly with your printers you could also use
more advanced inks that do not need curing, or maybe UV curing inks.
But the MISPRO yellow will give you a starting point.

ST

On Wed, Feb 4, 2009 at 9:46 PM, Parin Eghlim Parsian (PEP CO.)
<parin_eghlim_ parsian@yahoo. com> wrote:
>
>
> Dear Sir,
>
> We are the exclusive representative of DTG Impression Technology and we use this printer to print on tshirts. The idea of board printing (to make a circuit) came to our mind because we believe that the process of tshirt printing is the same as board printing. Our printer can print on any kind of surface like garment, glass, textile, wood, board etc.
>
> We do not have the knowledge of board printing and it is highly appreciated if you give me the answers to the following inquiries:
>
> 1- Our printer CAN PRINT simply on any kind of board but we do not know what kind of ink should we use to make sure that this ink is acid-resistant.
> After printing we must put the board in HCL acid and the ink MUST NOT SOLVE IN ACID and we want to know which kind of ink is suitable for our purpose.
>
> 2- Which kind of print head is compatible for that kind of ink? We now use Epson Stylus Photo R2400 or 1800. Are these heads suitable for us or not? If not what print head do you suggest?
>
> Thank you for your urgent response.
>
> Sincerely,
>
>
> Mohamad Amiri
> Head of R&D Department
> Parin Eghlim Parsian Co. (PEP CO)
> Address: Suite 6A, NO 8, Second Dead Alley, Kouhe Nour St., Motahhari Ave.., Tehran, Iran.
> Tell: +98 21 8854 0072-4
> Fax: +98 21 8873 6751
> Direct Cell Phone: +98 912 676 56 88 (or +98 935 564 32 92)
> E-mail: parin_eghlim_ parsian@yahoo. com
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------ --------- --------- ------
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
> http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/Homebrew_ PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
















      

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi,

Although i don't have experience in direct print pcbs i wish to share
some thoughts about it.

If you print shirts maybe your are using sublimation ink. This ink is
glycerine and Polyethylene Glicol (PEG) with pigments and much water. It
polymerizes with heat and becomes a plastic film. I don't see anyone
using it for making PCB's, i don't understand why, maybe anyone ever
tried, but from what i understand this is very similar with the
'recommended' inks. But is widely available, and i am very curious in
trying it, with both epson and hp heads.  

Normal dye ink is absorbed by paper and will not dry in a metallic
surface. Pigment ink seems all based in polymers, the water/diluter is
absorbed by paper and the monomers polymerize at the surface. 
Any ink that needs heat or UV will do pcb's if suitable for the printer
heat, but if has to much water/diluter it can spread in the surface.

Do you ever tried the inks you normally use? Can you please say which
ones?

To make double sided pcb's use the same holder that you use in the cnc
and perfectly center it on the printer, so you can flip the board upside
down and print in both sides. If you use plated holes, negative print
the board both sides, do a metallic resist plating after printing, and
strip the ink before etch. This is the perfect solution i want to have
for myself.

Other things is getting the ink out of the board after etch, will be
better to use a ink that strips ink simple alkaline bath, like normal
pcb films. These films are acrylic based, with half or more of
benzophenone to make it UV sensible but the other things are salicylic
and (meth)acrylic acid. This will strip in alkaline and have a good acid
resistance. Using just (meth)acrilic acid or a misture of both and heat
to 60�C seems it will do the job easily, or maybe with some phenol to
give a better polymer. This is other thing i wish to try when i made my
pcb printer.

Also i wish to ask if these printers do epoxy? In my inexperienced
opinion it seems easy to print epoxy with a ink made of diluted both
parts epoxy in diethylene glycol with water and print soldermask this
way.

Simao

On Wed, 2009-02-04 at 12:46 -0800, Parin Eghlim Parsian (PEP CO.) wrote:
> 
>  
> Dear Sir,
>  
> We are the exclusive representative of DTG Impression Technology and
> we use this printer to print on tshirts. The idea of board printing
> (to make a circuit) came to our mind because we believe that the
> process of tshirt printing is the same as board printing. Our printer
> can print on any kind of surface like garment, glass, textile, wood,
> board etc.
>  
> We do not have the knowledge of board printing and it is highly
> appreciated if you give me the answers to the following inquiries:
>  
> 1- Our printer CAN PRINT simply on any kind of board but we do not
> know what kind of ink should we use to make sure that this ink is
> acid-resistant.
> After printing we must put the board in HCL acid and the ink MUST NOT
> SOLVE IN ACID and we want to know which kind of ink is suitable for
> our purpose.
>  
> 2- Which kind of print head is compatible for that kind of ink? We now
> use Epson Stylus Photo R2400 or 1800. Are these heads suitable for us
> or not? If not what print head do you suggest?
>  
> Thank you for your urgent response.
>  
> Sincerely,
> 
> Mohamad Amiri
> Head of R&D Department 
> Parin Eghlim Parsian Co. (PEP CO) 
> Address: Suite 6A, NO 8, Second Dead Alley, Kouhe Nour St., Motahhari
> Ave., Tehran, Iran. 
> Tell: +98 21 8854 0072-4 
> Fax: +98 21 8873 6751 
> Direct Cell Phone: +98 912 676 56 88 (or +98 935 564 32 92) 
> E-mail: parin_eghlim_parsian@...
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> 
> 
> 
> 
>

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Simao Cardoso 
<simaocardoso@...> wrote:
>
> Hi,
> 
> Although i don't have experience in direct print pcbs i wish to 
share
> some thoughts about it.
> 
> If you print shirts maybe your are using sublimation ink. This ink 
is
> glycerine and Polyethylene Glicol (PEG) with pigments and much 
water. It
> polymerizes with heat and becomes a plastic film.

This is incorrect. 

Sublimation is the process of a solid into a gas, or gas into a 
solid, without a liquid state between.

Sublimation ink works by vaporizing from the paper carrier when 
heated. The gas soaks into a polymer, which becomes porous when 
heated. It then cools and is a permanent part of the polymer.

It only works on polymers. Fabrics must be polyester or contain 
polyester. There are pretreatments for cottons that just spray a 
polymer into the fabric. Plastic items are made of polymers, so as 
long as they can withstand the heat, they can be sublimated to.

But all nonporous surfaces must be coated with a clear or white 
polymer, or nothing will be transfered. Ceramic mugs and tiles, metal 
mugs, all these things must be coated. But the coating itself 
prevents etching, the sublimation does nothing to allow or prevent 
sublimation.

http://www.polyphoto.com/tutorials/bulkinksystem/InkjetFAQ.html

Steve Greenfield

On Sat, 2009-02-07 at 15:58 +0000, Steve wrote:

> > polymerizes with heat and becomes a plastic film.
> 
> This is incorrect. 
> 
> Sublimation is the process of a solid into a gas, or gas into a 
> solid, without a liquid state between.

Thanks, i had a strong curiosity about the ink composition and ended
forgeting what the name means...

But about acrylic made inks what have been tried and what left to try?
Using just (meth)acrylic acid or a misture of both (maybe with benzoic
acid) and heat will it  work? 

And epoxy, thus anyone ever tried to print it? I have read some things
about it with 7g / 4g  both parts epoxy with 7 g diethylene glycol in
60 g of water and ended in 5cp viscosity 'ink' to be used in hp heads. 
Was this tried? The much water let it be printed in termal heads.

> Steve Greenfield
PS about your toner refills, is available on ebay with chips and
instructions...

Simao

>