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2010-01-25 by David Griffith
My experiment with Press-n-Peel and my Brother 5250 has failed miserably. I've had it with toner-transfer. Does anyone here use an inkjet-resist solution? Is anyone here active on the inkjet PCB yahoo group? I'm casting about for the ideal path here. Help? -- David Griffith dgriffi@... A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?
2010-01-25 by Henry Liu
Try my kit for an easy to start solution: http://www.fullspectrumengineering.com/pcbinkjet.html On Mon, Jan 25, 2010 at 10:57 AM, David Griffith <dgriffi@...>wrote: > > > > My experiment with Press-n-Peel and my Brother 5250 has failed miserably. > I've had it with toner-transfer. Does anyone here use an inkjet-resist > solution? Is anyone here active on the inkjet PCB yahoo group? I'm > casting about for the ideal path here. Help? > > -- > David Griffith > dgriffi@... <dgriffi%40cs.csubak.edu> > > A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. > Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? > A: Top-posting. > Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2010-01-25 by Stefan Trethan
I've tried direct inkjet back when Vokan presented his stunning results here. Short story: it is possible, very promising, but much harder to get right than toner transfer. I've put it on hold for now, since toner transfer works well and my need for cheap boards has diminished. If you don't have the patience to get toner transfer to work, I would not recommend direct inkjet. It is a lot more fiddly. Instead why not use photoprocess with pre-coated boards? I'd give toner transfer another shot, the combination of right pronter, right paper, right laminator, and right clean boards can not fail. I'll be happy to advise if you line out what you have done so far and what goes wrong, I've done a fair bit of messing about with TT. A. People who force me to read the same nonsensical signature hundreds of times wasting my bloody time. Q. What is one of the most annoying things in email? ST
On Mon, Jan 25, 2010 at 7:57 PM, David Griffith <dgriffi@...> wrote: > > My experiment with Press-n-Peel and my Brother 5250 has failed miserably. > I've had it with toner-transfer. Does anyone here use an inkjet-resist > solution? Is anyone here active on the inkjet PCB yahoo group? I'm > casting about for the ideal path here. Help? > > -- > David Griffith > dgriffi@... > > A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. > Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? > A: Top-posting. > Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? > > > ------------------------------------ > > Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links > > > >
2010-01-25 by David Griffith
On Mon, 25 Jan 2010, Henry Liu wrote: > On Mon, Jan 25, 2010 at 10:57 AM, David Griffith <dgriffi@...>wrote: > >> My experiment with Press-n-Peel and my Brother 5250 has failed miserably. >> I've had it with toner-transfer. Does anyone here use an inkjet-resist >> solution? Is anyone here active on the inkjet PCB yahoo group? I'm >> casting about for the ideal path here. Help? > Try my kit for an easy to start solution: > http://www.fullspectrumengineering.com/pcbinkjet.html It doesn't appear that your kit supports printing to 60 mil stock nor printing on anything sized differently than the CD tray adapter. I've been looking at this: http://www.samzu.net/product_info.php?products_id=121 which appears to be what I want. It can be seen in action here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zPhXmf1woXk Have you done any experimentations along these lines? -- David Griffith dgriffi@... A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?
2010-01-25 by Stefan Trethan
Just be aware that the service manual and adjustment software can be downloaded elsewhere for free. You pay for the instructions and not having to look for the other two. There used to be a decent writeup here: <http://techref.massmind.org/techref/pcb/etch/directinkjetresist.htm> But the URL is dead at the moment, text only google cache here: <http://209.85.229.132/search?q=cache:lhK5-ZGHCncJ:techref.massmind.org/techref/pcb/etch/directinkjetresist.htm+Direct+to+PCB+InkJet+Resist+Printing&hl=de&client=firefox-a&gl=at&strip=1> Maybe the original page recovers in a day or two. A: Repetitive content, especially the kind that isn't marked as such. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? ST On Mon, Jan 25, 2010 at 8:27 PM, David Griffith <dgriffi@...> wrote: .
> > I've been looking at this: > http://www.samzu.net/product_info.php?products_id=121
2010-01-25 by David Griffith
On Mon, 25 Jan 2010, Stefan Trethan wrote: > I've tried direct inkjet back when Vokan presented his stunning results > here. Short story: it is possible, very promising, but much harder to > get right than toner transfer. I've put it on hold for now, since toner > transfer works well and my need for cheap boards has diminished. > > If you don't have the patience to get toner transfer to work, I would > not recommend direct inkjet. It is a lot more fiddly. > Instead why not use photoprocess with pre-coated boards? In what way is direct inkjet more fiddly? If you mean by aligning things, I can handle that. Most of the stuff I lay out is single-layer anyhow. I've thought of the photo process, but the price of pre-coated boards scares me off. I'd like to be able to cut a piece of board for what I'm up to and not have to waste an entire larger board for that. How about spray-on resist? > I'd give toner transfer another shot, the combination of right > pronter, right paper, right laminator, and right clean boards can not > fail. I'll be happy to advise if you line out what you have done so > far and what goes wrong, I've done a fair bit of messing about with > TT. I had a modified GBC laminator of the sort that Pulsar advocated. I haven't a clue where it wound up. Pulsar suggests that the laminator works with their product, but not with Press-n-Peel. I used an iron last night with Press-n-Peel and absolutely nothing transferred. -- David Griffith dgriffi@... A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?
2010-01-25 by Henry Liu
The idea behind the project was to make it as multi purpose as possible. By collecting all the parts together then it makes it an easy project and it can be used in any CD printer. Step by step instructions guarantees you results. It is my experience that any sold plans with no parts are worthless. You can find information to modify your own printer in this forum but it's probably one of those projects that you will admire but not get anything usable unless you are /very/ dedicated and very competent. However, after selling many kits, it is my experience that many users experience problems with ink transfer, software configuration and alignment. The CD based printers have optical sensors that align the board perfectly based on registration but many people still can't figure out how to make the double sided image to align without substantial help. We also explored fully modifying some Epson printers but the inkjet models change every 6-9 months and every head has different pinouts, specs and can't be bought separately from the printer. Epson's market strategy has always been to throw out the printer once the head is gone. We have a Xaar 128 and HP 45 compatible inkjets firing on a parallax propeller platform and also on an XMOS G4 platform and simulations on a Xilinx Spartan 3an. It's pretty easy to adapt our XY gantry laser to mount the inkjet. The print drivers we wrote for the laser could also be recycled into the inkjet but people are used to $15 inkjets but a Xaar 128 head is $400 alone without any electronics, powersupply, mechanical gantry, etc so we're waiting for a better market than DIY pcb. CD based kits give a low effort to reward issue and you can modify the R280 base printer (information in this group by another member) to print larger sizes once you decide it's working. If you weren't able to get simple toner transfer or UV developer to work then you will an order of magnitude more issues with modifying an inkjet printer. Henry On Mon, Jan 25, 2010 at 11:27 AM, David Griffith <dgriffi@...>wrote: > > > On Mon, 25 Jan 2010, Henry Liu wrote: > > > On Mon, Jan 25, 2010 at 10:57 AM, David Griffith <dgriffi@...<dgriffi%40cs.csubak.edu> > >wrote: > > > >> My experiment with Press-n-Peel and my Brother 5250 has failed > miserably. > >> I've had it with toner-transfer. Does anyone here use an inkjet-resist > >> solution? Is anyone here active on the inkjet PCB yahoo group? I'm > >> casting about for the ideal path here. Help? > > > Try my kit for an easy to start solution: > > http://www.fullspectrumengineering.com/pcbinkjet.html > > It doesn't appear that your kit supports printing to 60 mil stock nor > printing on anything sized differently than the CD tray adapter. > > I've been looking at this: > http://www.samzu.net/product_info.php?products_id=121 which appears to be > what I want. It can be seen in action here: > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zPhXmf1woXk Have you done any > experimentations along these lines? > > > -- > David Griffith > dgriffi@... <dgriffi%40cs.csubak.edu> > > A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. > Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? > A: Top-posting. > Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2010-01-25 by Stefan Trethan
Inkjet was fiddly because the ink doesn't just lay down flat and cover the board. It's shot down in tiny little droplets. On paper this is not such a problem because it sucks the ink up, and any tiny gaps don't matter much anyway. But it's darn hard to get an even coat that isn't running together where it should not. It helped coating the board with brake fluid (of all things!), or propylene glycol. Next thing is curing, you need to bake that ink to make it etch resist, at least the one Volkan and myself were using. Keeping the inkjet heads free from clogs was another big issue, especially if you don't use it every day. I had the first useful toner transfer much quicker, and achieve perfect transfers now virtually all the time, I never got there with inkjet. Also I can make a board now, and the next in 10 months, and all I need to do is dust off the laminator. I don't think that's easily possible with injket. A laminator is highly recommended for toner transfer, the iron was just too inconsistent for me. So you should look for it again or make a new one. You should also expect to buy a printer that works and some paper if you don't have anything suitable already. A: People who just don't give a damn. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? ST
On Mon, Jan 25, 2010 at 8:37 PM, David Griffith <dgriffi@...> wrote: > > In what way is direct inkjet more fiddly? If you mean by aligning things, > I can handle that. Most of the stuff I lay out is single-layer anyhow. > I've thought of the photo process, but the price of pre-coated boards > scares me off. I'd like to be able to cut a piece of board for what I'm > up to and not have to waste an entire larger board for that. How about > spray-on resist? > >> I'd give toner transfer another shot, the combination of right >> pronter, right paper, right laminator, and right clean boards can not >> fail. I'll be happy to advise if you line out what you have done so >> far and what goes wrong, I've done a fair bit of messing about with >> TT. > > I had a modified GBC laminator of the sort that Pulsar advocated. I > haven't a clue where it wound up. Pulsar suggests that the laminator > works with their product, but not with Press-n-Peel. I used an iron last > night with Press-n-Peel and absolutely nothing transferred. > > > -- > David Griffith > dgriffi@... > > A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. > Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? > A: Top-posting. > Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? > >
2010-01-25 by David Griffith
On Mon, 25 Jan 2010, Stefan Trethan wrote: > Just be aware that the service manual and adjustment software can be > downloaded elsewhere for free. You pay for the instructions and not > having to look for the other two. > > There used to be a decent writeup here: > <http://techref.massmind.org/techref/pcb/etch/directinkjetresist.htm> It's working fine for me in southern California. > A: Repetitive content, especially the kind that isn't marked as such. > Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? What? You don't like my .sig? -- David Griffith dgriffi@... A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?
2010-01-25 by Leon Heller
On 25/01/2010 18:57, David Griffith wrote: > > My experiment with Press-n-Peel and my Brother 5250 has failed miserably. > I've had it with toner-transfer. Does anyone here use an inkjet-resist > solution? Is anyone here active on the inkjet PCB yahoo group? I'm > casting about for the ideal path here. Help? > Just use the standard photo-etch technique with a transparency made with an inkjet printer and pre-coated boards. I can make a PCB in about 30 minutes with 8/8 mil design rules, without any problems. Leon -- G1HSM http://webspace.webring.com/people/jl/leon_heller/
2010-01-25 by Harvey White
On Mon, 25 Jan 2010 10:57:06 -0800 (PST), you wrote: > >My experiment with Press-n-Peel and my Brother 5250 has failed miserably. Haven't used press & Peel, according to pulsar, it needs a lot of heat. They might be biased. Check the fuser temperature on the brother, some brothers use a high temperature toner that will just complicate the problem. Harvey
>I've had it with toner-transfer. Does anyone here use an inkjet-resist >solution? Is anyone here active on the inkjet PCB yahoo group? I'm >casting about for the ideal path here. Help?
2010-01-26 by DJ Delorie
Harvey White <madyn@...> writes: > Haven't used press & Peel, according to pulsar, it needs a lot of > heat. They might be biased. Pulsar paper with Brother toner needs a lot of heat too. > Check the fuser temperature on the brother, some brothers use a high > temperature toner that will just complicate the problem. I did some tests with my temp-controlled laminator, and found that the default temp of the laminator is around 320 F but the Brother toner really wants around 370 F. Even HP toner works better at 350 F.
2010-01-26 by James Bishop
Like the others, I get great results with toner transfer, using a cheap samsung printer and paper from a magazine. I suspect your issue is with your printer/toner - brother toner is rumoured to have a higher melting point. For cheaper photo boards, I would recommend buying some dry film laminate (available on ebay).
> My experiment with Press-n-Peel and my Brother 5250 has failed miserably. > I've had it with toner-transfer. Does anyone here use an inkjet-resist > solution? Is anyone here active on the inkjet PCB yahoo group? I'm > casting about for the ideal path here. Help?
2010-01-26 by James
> I've thought of the photo process, but the price of pre-coated boards > scares me off. I'd like to be able to cut a piece of board for what I'm > up to and not have to waste an entire larger board for that. How about > spray-on resist? > A friend of mine experimented quite extensively and came to the conclusion that the spray on resist is garbage, which is probably why hardly anyone carries it anymore. If you try that, you will wish you spent a bit more for the pre-coated boards. The trick with this method is to plan ahead and either keep a stock of the sizes you most often use, or combine several layouts onto a single piece. You can cut it too if you're careful, but you need to be sure you store the unused portion in an opaque container. Another tip with this stuff is print on vellum instead of transparency, and place the print ink side down on the blank, and use a piece of reasonably thick glass to press against it so that the whole thing stays absolutely flat. > > I had a modified GBC laminator of the sort that Pulsar advocated. I > haven't a clue where it wound up. Pulsar suggests that the laminator > works with their product, but not with Press-n-Peel. I used an iron last > night with Press-n-Peel and absolutely nothing transferred. > How did you prep the board prior to attempting the transfer? I've had great luck using plain glossy paper I cut out of catalogs that come in the mail. I was even able to get usable boards with an ancient Okidata LED printer I had, but the 600 dpi Xerox I have now works FAR better. You might try a different laser printer and see if that works better, a lot of people report good results with the HP Laserjet series using OEM toner, you should be able to find one of those pretty cheap. I'm wanting to try the inkjet method in order to do fine pitch SMT stuff, but toner transfer is by far the easiest method I've come across so far, you really ought to give it another go.
2010-01-26 by David Griffith
On Tue, 26 Jan 2010, James wrote: >> I've thought of the photo process, but the price of pre-coated boards >> scares me off. I'd like to be able to cut a piece of board for what I'm >> up to and not have to waste an entire larger board for that. How about >> spray-on resist? > > A friend of mine experimented quite extensively and came to the > conclusion that the spray on resist is garbage, which is probably why > hardly anyone carries it anymore. If you try that, you will wish you > spent a bit more for the pre-coated boards. The trick with this method > is to plan ahead and either keep a stock of the sizes you most often > use, or combine several layouts onto a single piece. You can cut it too > if you're careful, but you need to be sure you store the unused portion > in an opaque container. Another tip with this stuff is print on vellum > instead of transparency, and place the print ink side down on the blank, > and use a piece of reasonably thick glass to press against it so that > the whole thing stays absolutely flat. I suppose a scroll saw with an appropriate blade would do the trick for trimming boards. Half-inch glass slabs seem easy enough to come by, but I wonder about their UV transparency. I suppose it would be transparent enough if I calibrate how long it takes to get a good exposure. >> I had a modified GBC laminator of the sort that Pulsar advocated. I >> haven't a clue where it wound up. Pulsar suggests that the laminator >> works with their product, but not with Press-n-Peel. I used an iron last >> night with Press-n-Peel and absolutely nothing transferred. > > How did you prep the board prior to attempting the transfer? I've had > great luck using plain glossy paper I cut out of catalogs that come in > the mail. I was even able to get usable boards with an ancient Okidata > LED printer I had, but the 600 dpi Xerox I have now works FAR better. > You might try a different laser printer and see if that works better, a > lot of people report good results with the HP Laserjet series using OEM > toner, you should be able to find one of those pretty cheap. I pulled the board out of the package, then washed with 93% isopropyl, then with acetone. I have access to an HP Laserjet 2600n that I might try. Another thing that bugged me is that Press-n-Peel seems a lot harder to get taped down to the paper. My first attempt curled up in the printer. > I'm wanting to try the inkjet method in order to do fine pitch SMT > stuff, but toner transfer is by far the easiest method I've come across > so far, you really ought to give it another go. One of the things that is driving me to the photo process is that I'd like to do double-sided boards sometime. It seems a bit easier to get the two layers registered properly by taping two stencils together to make a pouch. -- David Griffith dgriffi@... A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?
2010-01-26 by Russell Shaw
David Griffith wrote: > On Tue, 26 Jan 2010, James wrote: > ... > One of the things that is driving me to the photo process is that I'd like > to do double-sided boards sometime. It seems a bit easier to get the two > layers registered properly by taping two stencils together to make a > pouch. You can place small squares of double-sided foam tape to one film, then place the other film on top to make the pouch. The tape is usually 1/32" thick like the pcb. It's a far easier way to make accurate double-sided pcb than toner transfer.
2010-01-26 by Brian Lalor
On Jan 26, 2010, at 2:08 AM, David Griffith wrote:
> One of the things that is driving me to the photo process is that
> I'd like
> to do double-sided boards sometime. It seems a bit easier to get
> the two
> layers registered properly by taping two stencils together to make a
> pouch.
My very first board was double-sided. I’m using Pulsar’s product. It
wasn’t perfect, but I’m very happy with it. I used 2-sided copper
clad, fully etched the first side with shelf paper on the other side,
and then drilled out a couple of holes for components on opposite
corners. Then I prepared the 2nd piece of transfer paper and poked a
pin through the appropriate places and used the pin to line up the
paper on the board. I applied contact paper to the first side and
etched again. It really came out very, very well.
--
Brian Lalor / blalor@...
You snooze, you lose
Well I have snost and lost2010-01-26 by DJ Delorie
David Griffith <dgriffi@...> writes: > One of the things that is driving me to the photo process is that > I'd like to do double-sided boards sometime. It seems a bit easier > to get the two layers registered properly by taping two stencils > together to make a pouch. I have a special footprint in my library that, when printed on transparency, results in a fine-line crosshair in the same spot on all layers. I print one layer on plain paper and use it to drill out those spots on the pcb with 13 mil holes, then I have an easy visual target to use to align each film to each side of the pcb.