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Again on tinning!

Again on tinning!

2010-09-12 by Alessio Sangalli

Hi, I was about to place an order for the precision scale and the 
chemicals needed for tinning but:

- I use the H2O2 + HCl method for etching

What was not clear from the thread that was going on several weeks ago, 
is if it can be used after etching the PCB and if it delivers a good 
result. Somebody reported it may create a layer of high impedence on the 
board; as my applications can be low-power electronics to SMPSs, I do 
not really like to deal with such "problem".

The tinning method I am referring to is the one explained here:
http://www.voodooengineering.com/index.php/pcbprocess/tinning

And I was going to order the chemicals from:
http://shop.ebay.com/quartzpegmatite/m.html?_nkw=&_armrs=1&_from=&_ipg=&_trksid=p4340
as suggested by bebx2000
Thiourea 98% Lab Chemical One Pound  --> $11.99
Stannous Chloride Anhydrous 98% 1/4 lb --> $8.99
Sulfamic Acid 99.8% Lab Chemical One Pound. --> $5.99

What to do? I'm quite confused.

bye
as

Re: Again on tinning!

2010-09-12 by designer_craig

Not to worry, this electroless tin solution works by a redox reaction with the copper and does not deposit any tin on the epoxy.  I used it for years and never had any surface leakage issues.  As with any material its important to wash the board completely to make sure you remove any ionic salts from any microscopic pores and fishers on the material surface.

Craig

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Alessio Sangalli <alesan@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> Hi, I was about to place an order for the precision scale and the 
> chemicals needed for tinning but:
> 
> - I use the H2O2 + HCl method for etching
> 
> What was not clear from the thread that was going on several weeks ago, 
> is if it can be used after etching the PCB and if it delivers a good 
> result. Somebody reported it may create a layer of high impedence on the 
> board; as my applications can be low-power electronics to SMPSs, I do 
> not really like to deal with such "problem".
> 
> The tinning method I am referring to is the one explained here:
> http://www.voodooengineering.com/index.php/pcbprocess/tinning
> 
> And I was going to order the chemicals from:
> http://shop.ebay.com/quartzpegmatite/m.html?_nkw=&_armrs=1&_from=&_ipg=&_trksid=p4340
> as suggested by bebx2000
> Thiourea 98% Lab Chemical One Pound  --> $11.99
> Stannous Chloride Anhydrous 98% 1/4 lb --> $8.99
> Sulfamic Acid 99.8% Lab Chemical One Pound. --> $5.99
> 
> What to do? I'm quite confused.
> 
> bye
> as
>

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Again on tinning!

2010-09-12 by Malcolm Parker-Lisberg

It does deposit tin on the FR4 surface, and will prove problematic if you have high impedance circuits, it also causes problems when the board is conformally coated, with tin migration under the coating.
Conformally coating the board first and then applying the tin is a better solution for high impedace or low leakage PCB requirements.
It should not be a roblem with normal home PCB CMOS circuits.

Malcolm

I don't suffer from insanity I enjoy it!

--- On Sun, 9/12/10, designer_craig <cs6061@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: designer_craig <cs6061@...>
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Again on tinning!
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, September 12, 2010, 6:49 PM







 



  


    
      
      
      Not to worry, this electroless tin solution works by a redox reaction with the copper and does not deposit any tin on the epoxy.  I used it for years and never had any surface leakage issues.  As with any material its important to wash the board completely to make sure you remove any ionic salts from any microscopic pores and fishers on the material surface.



Craig



--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Alessio Sangalli <alesan@...> wrote:

>

> Hi, I was about to place an order for the precision scale and the 

> chemicals needed for tinning but:

> 

> - I use the H2O2 + HCl method for etching

> 

> What was not clear from the thread that was going on several weeks ago, 

> is if it can be used after etching the PCB and if it delivers a good 

> result. Somebody reported it may create a layer of high impedence on the 

> board; as my applications can be low-power electronics to SMPSs, I do 

> not really like to deal with such "problem".

> 

> The tinning method I am referring to is the one explained here:

> http://www.voodooengineering.com/index.php/pcbprocess/tinning

> 

> And I was going to order the chemicals from:

> http://shop.ebay.com/quartzpegmatite/m.html?_nkw=&_armrs=1&_from=&_ipg=&_trksid=p4340

> as suggested by bebx2000

> Thiourea 98% Lab Chemical One Pound  --> $11.99

> Stannous Chloride Anhydrous 98% 1/4 lb --> $8.99

> Sulfamic Acid 99.8% Lab Chemical One Pound. --> $5.99

> 

> What to do? I'm quite confused.

> 

> bye

> as

>





    
     

    
    


 



  






      

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Again on tinning!

2010-09-12 by Andrew Leech

For what it's worth, I've been using Cool-Amp silver plating powder for a little while on my pcb's now, it's so much easier than any chemical tin plating I've heard of. Previously I was using a hot solder pot (solder in a frypan on a camping oven) using a windscreen squeegee to level the solder. Worked great but not the safest, what with lead fumes and spitting hot molten solder and all.

But yeah, the cool amp is as simple as tapping a little bit of powder onto freshly etched copper, putting a drop of water down on it and rubbing it into the copper (i use my finger). In a minute or two it's silver plated.
Admittedly silver does get tarnished etc so not as easy to solder if you leave it a while, but if I'm making a pcb I'm using soldering it pretty soon in which case it's great.

I don't think I'm getting any surface leakage like this suggestion, I used it on an fpga board that's running at 90Mhz and haven't seen anything to cause concern.

Andrew

On 13/09/2010, at 4:36 AM, Malcolm Parker-Lisberg wrote:

> It does deposit tin on the FR4 surface, and will prove problematic if you have high impedance circuits, it also causes problems when the board is conformally coated, with tin migration under the coating.
> Conformally coating the board first and then applying the tin is a better solution for high impedace or low leakage PCB requirements.
> It should not be a roblem with normal home PCB CMOS circuits.
> 
> Malcolm
> 
> I don't suffer from insanity I enjoy it!
> 
> --- On Sun, 9/12/10, designer_craig <cs6061@...> wrote:
> 
> From: designer_craig <cs6061@...>
> Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Again on tinning!
> To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Sunday, September 12, 2010, 6:49 PM
> 
>  
> 
> Not to worry, this electroless tin solution works by a redox reaction with the copper and does not deposit any tin on the epoxy. I used it for years and never had any surface leakage issues. As with any material its important to wash the board completely to make sure you remove any ionic salts from any microscopic pores and fishers on the material surface.
> 
> Craig
> 
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Alessio Sangalli <alesan@...> wrote:
> 
> >
> 
> > Hi, I was about to place an order for the precision scale and the 
> 
> > chemicals needed for tinning but:
> 
> > 
> 
> > - I use the H2O2 + HCl method for etching
> 
> > 
> 
> > What was not clear from the thread that was going on several weeks ago, 
> 
> > is if it can be used after etching the PCB and if it delivers a good 
> 
> > result. Somebody reported it may create a layer of high impedence on the 
> 
> > board; as my applications can be low-power electronics to SMPSs, I do 
> 
> > not really like to deal with such "problem".
> 
> > 
> 
> > The tinning method I am referring to is the one explained here:
> 
> > http://www.voodooengineering.com/index.php/pcbprocess/tinning
> 
> > 
> 
> > And I was going to order the chemicals from:
> 
> > http://shop.ebay.com/quartzpegmatite/m.html?_nkw=&_armrs=1&_from=&_ipg=&_trksid=p4340
> 
> > as suggested by bebx2000
> 
> > Thiourea 98% Lab Chemical One Pound --> $11.99
> 
> > Stannous Chloride Anhydrous 98% 1/4 lb --> $8.99
> 
> > Sulfamic Acid 99.8% Lab Chemical One Pound. --> $5.99
> 
> > 
> 
> > What to do? I'm quite confused.
> 
> > 
> 
> > bye
> 
> > as
> 
> >
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> 
> 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Again on tinning!

2010-09-13 by Alessio Sangalli

On 09/12/2010 11:36 AM, Malcolm Parker-Lisberg wrote:
> It does deposit tin on the FR4 surface, and will prove problematic if you have high impedance circuits, it also causes problems when the board is conformally coated, with tin migration under the coating.
> Conformally coating the board first and then applying the tin is a better solution for high impedace or low leakage PCB requirements.
> It should not be a roblem with normal home PCB CMOS circuits.

Do you have more data on this? This is chemistry, I am not qualified to 
understand the process for which the tin may deposit on the board, but:
- is this measurable?
- how much it changes a board? Can one see it with a multimeter?
- do you have any kind of number or data?

bye
as

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Again on tinning!

2010-09-13 by Bob Macklin

I just checked a PCB that was tinned with Datak "TINNIT". There is no 
measurable resistance between adjacent traces.

Bob Macklin
K5MYJ
Seattle, Wa.
"Real Radios Glow In The Dark"
----- Original Message ----- 
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: "Alessio Sangalli" <alesan@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, September 12, 2010 9:04 PM
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Again on tinning!


> On 09/12/2010 11:36 AM, Malcolm Parker-Lisberg wrote:
>> It does deposit tin on the FR4 surface, and will prove problematic if you 
>> have high impedance circuits, it also causes problems when the board is 
>> conformally coated, with tin migration under the coating.
>> Conformally coating the board first and then applying the tin is a better 
>> solution for high impedace or low leakage PCB requirements.
>> It should not be a roblem with normal home PCB CMOS circuits.
>
> Do you have more data on this? This is chemistry, I am not qualified to
> understand the process for which the tin may deposit on the board, but:
> - is this measurable?
> - how much it changes a board? Can one see it with a multimeter?
> - do you have any kind of number or data?
>
> bye
> as
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and 
> Photos:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Again on tinning!

2010-09-13 by Malcolm Parker-Lisberg

Alessio

The high impedance present due to electroless tin manifested itsself on a sample and hold 14 bit A to D circuit and associated amplifier. Six boards had excessive errors whilst two worked perfectly. The two working boards were not electroless tin plated. The effect of the tin caused the sample and hold capaicitor DC value to droop during the A-D conversion. It could not be measured with a multimeter. The associatd DC amplifier had incorret gain, The leakage across the gain setting resistor was sufficient to cause errors. All the boards had been cleaned in Arklone to remove flux residues.

Malcolm

I don't suffer from insanity I enjoy it!

--- On Mon, 9/13/10, Alessio Sangalli <alesan@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: Alessio Sangalli <alesan@...>
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Again on tinning!
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, September 13, 2010, 5:04 AM







 



  


    
      
      
      On 09/12/2010 11:36 AM, Malcolm Parker-Lisberg wrote:

> It does deposit tin on the FR4 surface, and will prove problematic if you have high impedance circuits, it also causes problems when the board is conformally coated, with tin migration under the coating.

> Conformally coating the board first and then applying the tin is a better solution for high impedace or low leakage PCB requirements.

> It should not be a roblem with normal home PCB CMOS circuits.



Do you have more data on this? This is chemistry, I am not qualified to 

understand the process for which the tin may deposit on the board, but:

- is this measurable?

- how much it changes a board? Can one see it with a multimeter?

- do you have any kind of number or data?



bye

as





    
     

    
    


 



  






      

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Again on tinning!

2010-09-14 by Larry Battraw

On Mon, Sep 13, 2010 at 5:57 AM, Malcolm Parker-Lisberg
<mparkerlisberg@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Alessio
>
> The high impedance present due to electroless tin manifested itsself on a sample and hold 14 bit A to D circuit and associated amplifier. Six boards had excessive errors whilst two worked perfectly. The two working boards were not electroless tin plated. The effect of the tin caused the sample and hold capaicitor DC value to droop during the A-D conversion. It could not be measured with a multimeter. The associatd DC amplifier had incorret gain, The leakage across the gain setting resistor was sufficient to cause errors. All the boards had been cleaned in Arklone to remove flux residues.
>
> Malcolm
>
> I don't suffer from insanity I enjoy it!

To sum up, unless you are using circuits that are going to be affected
by very minute amounts of resistive coupling (probably 10's or 100's
of megohms) you're going to be fine.  As mentioned above, there was a
small capacitor that was being discharged by the slight conductive
layer of tin over the entire board, and in this type of high-accuracy
circuit even a few micro-amps of leakage is too much.  Probably not an
issue unless you're working with very high-impedance circuits with
MOSFET-input op-amps, instrumentation amplifiers, and medical
equipment meant to measure extremely small changes in voltage and
current (As well as needing to be almost perfectly isolated).
High-voltage circuits may also be affected (maybe 1KV+) since leakage
current corresponds directly to voltage.  I would be curious to know
if there would be a certain voltage where the conductive layer would
be vaporized between the traces at the highest potential.

There might be one last problem triggered where you could have traces
running over or around the tin-contaminated area at microwave
frequencies, which might produce odd problems with parasitic
capacitance, particularly with amplifiers (Or amplifiers suddenly
becoming oscillators!) or oscillators themselves undergoing unwanted
frequency shifts.

Regards,
Larry

Re: Again on tinning!

2010-09-18 by acidblue

Has any one have any experience with MG Chems. liquid Tin?
http://www.mgchemicals.com/products/421.html

Seems a lot easier to use.

Here it is at Mouser:
http://www.mouser.com/search/refine.aspx?N=4294953381&Keyword=liquid%20tin

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Again on tinning!

2010-09-19 by mlerman@ix.netcom.com

-----Original Message-----
>From: acidblue <sunblaster5@...>
>Sent: Sep 18, 2010 7:06 PM
>To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Again on tinning!
>
>
>
>
>Has any one have any experience with MG Chems. liquid Tin?
>http://www.mgchemicals.com/products/421.html
>
>Seems a lot easier to use.
>
>Here it is at Mouser:
>http://www.mouser.com/search/refine.aspx?N=4294953381&Keyword=liquid%20tin
>
I use it all the time - seems to work fine.
Mark

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Again on tinning!

2010-09-19 by Alessio Sangalli

On 09/18/2010 04:06 PM, acidblue wrote:

> Has any one have any experience with MG Chems. liquid Tin?
> http://www.mgchemicals.com/products/421.html
>
> Seems a lot easier to use.

Sure but what is the shelf life? I do not make so many boards... and 
anyway, how can it be "easier" it works the same way: you have to put 
the PCB in the liquid and wait few minutes

bye
as

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Again on tinning!

2010-09-19 by Bob Macklin

I just used hot tap water and the TINNIT works fine.

It has no shelf life until mixed.

Bob Macklin
K5MYJ
Seattle, Wa.
"Real Radios Glow In The Dark"
----- Original Message ----- 
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: "rocko" <sunblaster5@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, September 18, 2010 6:18 PM
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Again on tinning!


> The other brands like "Tinnit" you have to mix it up in hot water over
> the stove.
> Liquid Tin there isn't any mixing
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and 
> Photos:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

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