Homebrew PCBs

Hi all, 

Just wondering if anyone had used/heard-of the HW-K1000 machine seen at http://www.tradevv.com/chinasuppliers/huawen_p_17944a/china-Professional-Through-hole-Plating-Machine.html

I'm thinking about getting one, and am just trying to see if I'll be breaking new ground, or if someone else can give me the benefit of their wisdom :)

To stave off the inevitable "I don't see why you don't just get a board-house to do it" comments, let me explain: it's about the time, not the expense. Case in point: I once took a week off work, had sent off my board (to PCB-pool) and was all set to work on it over my vacation. Board came back and in 10 minutes I realised I'd mirror'ed one of the module pinouts. There's no easy way to patch 100 pins on a small circuit board, so I had to send it off again - even with the ($$$) quick turnaround, it still only got here on the Friday of my week's
vacation. Sure - it's entirely my own fault for being careless, but I realised then that it wasn't the cost that was important to me, it was the turnaround time... Besides, if it costs ~$100 including P&P per board, and you do 15 of them, you've covered the cost of the above machine...

My main concern (and I have a question in with the manufacturers) is the chemistry. Since Chinese customs prevents them from shipping the chemistry to me, I'll have to find out what it is they use, and source it in the US. Here's hoping that can be overcome :)

Simon

spacedcowboy@... wrote:
> Hi all, 
>
> Just wondering if anyone had used/heard-of the HW-K1000 machine seen at http://www.tradevv.com/chinasuppliers/huawen_p_17944a/china-Professional-Through-hole-Plating-Machine.html
>
> I'm thinking about getting one, and am just trying to see if I'll be breaking new ground, or if someone else can give me the benefit of their wisdom :)
>
> To stave off the inevitable "I don't see why you don't just get a board-house to do it" comments, let me explain: it's about the time, not the expense. Case in point: I once took a week off work, had sent off my board (to PCB-pool) and was all set to work on it over my vacation. Board came back and in 10 minutes I realised I'd mirror'ed one of the module pinouts. There's no easy way to patch 100 pins on a small circuit board, so I had to send it off again - even with the ($$$) quick turnaround, it still only got here on the Friday of my week's
> vacation. Sure - it's entirely my own fault for being careless, but I realised then that it wasn't the cost that was important to me, it was the turnaround time... Besides, if it costs ~$100 including P&P per board, and you do 15 of them, you've covered the cost of the above machine...
>
> My main concern (and I have a question in with the manufacturers) is the chemistry. Since Chinese customs prevents them from shipping the chemistry to me, I'll have to find out what it is they use, and source it in the US. Here's hoping that can be overcome :)
>
> Simon
>   
A quick look at the spec's shows 16 mil (0.4mm) minimum hole size and 
2.5:1 aspect ratio. Not so hot... A good board house can do 8 mil (0.2 
mm) holes with 10:1 aspect ratios all day long.

Just my $0.02.

Bruce

spacedcowboy@... wrote: 
> 
> Just wondering if anyone had used/heard-of the HW-K1000 machine 
> I'm thinking about getting one, and am just trying to see if I'll be
> breaking new ground, or if someone else can give me the benefit of
> their wisdom :)

Simon,

If you find yourself careless about connectors pinouts i won't recommend
that you run a pcb plating setup yourself... About time, i would point
something close to 100 the number of hours needed in
reading/understanding to operate the thing without trouble. There is a
big lack of specifications or description for such machine, or either it
pleases be to buy it. Conventional pcb copper plating setup with big
dependency in addictive aren't easy or cheap to maintain. The most
hazard chemical in todays activation/plating chemistries is the copper
sulfate, can't see why it can't go thought customs. If you need to find
yourself and depend on another supplier for chemistry the machine is
worthless, or by other words, depends on your knowledge if it will work.

If it help, i think these suppliers are/can be found on US:

http://www.os-tech.com/chemistry.htm 
http://www.floridacirtech.com/Databases/pdfs/OMEGA%20II%20VERTICAL.pdf 

The holder of the palladium based direct plating chemistry patents
worldwide is SOLUTION TECHNOLOGY SYSTEMS, 538 E Stuart Ave, Redlands,
California 92374-3544 US. The product was HN504, it's said it can be
found from OS-TECH as OS-522R Cleaner / Conditioner, OS-523 Predip,
OS-524 Activator, OS-525 Accelerator (look at the pdf catalog at the
main page).

Many other suppliers around but the only other (better) chemistry you
may like to try is Neopact from Atotech, but won't be available in small
quantities. 

Good luck,
Sim�o

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Parham <obparham@...> wrote:
>
> A quick look at the spec's shows 16 mil (0.4mm) minimum hole size and 
> 2.5:1 aspect ratio. Not so hot... A good board house can do 8 mil (0.2 
> mm) holes with 10:1 aspect ratios all day long.
> 
> Just my $0.02.
> 
> Bruce
>

Well, I'm not trying to compete with a board-house, I'm trying to save myself some time. I tend to use an 18mil drill for vias at home anyway, giving me 0.4572mm diameter vias. Typically you add 0.1mm to any CNC-drilled via to get the real diameter, so really I'm using 0.55mm...

To get to a 2.5:1 aspect ratio, I'd have to migrate up from 18-mil drills to 22-mil drills for vias (when you include the 0.1mm drill variance factor). Not so bad, at least for me :) Or, of course, I could move to using 0.039" thick FR4 instead, which would actually allow me to shrink my vias down to 16mil...

Actually, using Bing (rather than Google) to find information on the HW-K1000 gives slightly different specs - in http://www.microsofttranslator.com/bv.aspx?from=zh-CHS&to=en&a=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.merke.com.cn%2Fproduct.asp%3Flt%3D24 they specify 0.3mm as the smallest drill-size...

[aside: I just checked, the board-house I tend to use (PCB-Pool) has a standard (as opposed to high-spec) DRU requirement of 0.3mm vias... They'll do 0.2mm at extra cost...]

Simon

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Parham <obparham@...> wrote:
>
> A quick look at the spec's shows 16 mil (0.4mm) minimum hole size and 
> 2.5:1 aspect ratio. Not so hot... A good board house can do 8 mil (0.2 
> mm) holes with 10:1 aspect ratios all day long.
> 
> Just my $0.02.
> 
> Bruce
>

Well, I'm not trying to compete with a board-house, I'm trying to save myself some time. I tend to use an 18mil drill for vias at home anyway, giving me 0.4572mm diameter vias. Typically you add 0.1mm to any CNC-drilled via to get the real diameter, so really I'm using 0.55mm...

To get to a 2.5:1 aspect ratio, I'd have to migrate up from 18-mil drills to 22-mil drills for vias (when you include the 0.1mm drill variance factor). Not so bad, at least for me :) Or, of course, I could move to using 0.039" thick FR4 instead, which would actually allow me to shrink my vias down to 16mil...

Actually, using Bing (rather than Google) to find information on the HW-K1000 gives slightly different specs - in http://www.microsofttranslator.com/bv.aspx?from=zh-CHS&to=en&a=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.merke.com.cn%2Fproduct.asp%3Flt%3D24 they specify 0.3mm as the smallest drill-size...

[aside: I just checked, the board-house I tend to use (PCB-Pool) has a standard (as opposed to high-spec) DRU requirement of 0.3mm vias... They'll do 0.2mm at extra cost...]

Simon

Hmm - this didn't seem to go through the first time, so trying again...

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Parham <obparham@...> wrote:
>
> A quick look at the spec's shows 16 mil (0.4mm) minimum hole size and 
> 2.5:1 aspect ratio. Not so hot... A good board house can do 8 mil (0.2 
> mm) holes with 10:1 aspect ratios all day long.
> 
> Just my $0.02.
> 
> Bruce
>

Well, I'm not trying to compete with a board-house, I'm trying to save myself some time. I tend to use an 18mil drill for vias at home anyway, giving me 0.4572mm diameter vias. Typically you add 0.1mm to any CNC-drilled via to get the real diameter, so really I'm using 0.55mm...

To get to a 2.5:1 aspect ratio, I'd have to migrate up from 18-mil drills to 22-mil drills for vias (when you include the 0.1mm drill variance factor). Not so bad, at least for me :) Or, of course, I could move to using 0.039" thick FR4 instead, which would actually allow me to shrink my vias down to 16mil...

Actually, using Bing (rather than Google) to find information on the HW-K1000 gives slightly different specs - in http://www.microsofttranslator.com/bv.aspx?from=zh-CHS&to=en&a=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.merke.com.cn%2Fproduct.asp%3Flt%3D24 they specify 0.3mm as the smallest drill-size...

[aside: I just checked, the board-house I tend to use (PCB-Pool) has a standard (as opposed to high-spec) DRU requirement of 0.3mm vias... They'll do 0.2mm at extra cost...]

Simon

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Simao Cardoso <simaocardoso@...> wrote:

> If you find yourself careless about connectors pinouts i won't recommend
> that you run a pcb plating setup yourself... 

[grin] I'm not generally careless... It's just something that stuck in my mind because sitting and staring at a useless piece of circuit-board for an entire week - that you took off for the explicit purpose of working on it - tends to have an impact :)

I've built a (real, not the PCB one) CNC machine, a Makerbot, etc. They're all complex in their own way, and they all need you to develop a skill-set in order to use them properly. I'm not really too afraid of that.

> About time, i would point
> something close to 100 the number of hours needed in
> reading/understanding to operate the thing without trouble. There is a
> big lack of specifications or description for such machine, or either it
> pleases be to buy it. Conventional pcb copper plating setup with big
> dependency in addictive aren't easy or cheap to maintain. The most
> hazard chemical in todays activation/plating chemistries is the copper
> sulfate, can't see why it can't go thought customs. If you need to find
> yourself and depend on another supplier for chemistry the machine is
> worthless, or by other words, depends on your knowledge if it will work.

The basic problem here is a lack of knowledge on my part. In their initial email, they claimed there are 3 things I'll need:

 - copper-bath. My guess on this was CuSO4, but what molar concentrate ? I don't know.
 - black hole agent. I have no idea what this is.
 - mild etching agent. Again, I have no idea. Dilute HCl ? 

I've asked for more details, but am currently waiting for them to wake up :) I think it's about 8AM over there as I type this...

> 
> If it help, i think these suppliers are/can be found on US:
> 
> http://www.os-tech.com/chemistry.htm 
> http://www.floridacirtech.com/Databases/pdfs/OMEGA%20II%20VERTICAL.pdf 

Thanks, that could turn out to be useful.

> The holder of the palladium based direct plating chemistry patents
> worldwide is SOLUTION TECHNOLOGY SYSTEMS, 538 E Stuart Ave, Redlands,
> California 92374-3544 US. The product was HN504, it's said it can be
> found from OS-TECH as OS-522R Cleaner / Conditioner, OS-523 Predip,
> OS-524 Activator, OS-525 Accelerator (look at the pdf catalog at the
> main page).

Cheers :)

> Many other suppliers around but the only other (better) chemistry you
> may like to try is Neopact from Atotech, but won't be available in small
> quantities. 

... and I've read that typically the shelf-life of these things isn't great...

Thanks for the info :)

Simon

spacedcowboy@... wrote:


> The basic problem here is a lack of knowledge on my part. In their
> initial email, they claimed there are 3 things I'll need:
> 
> - copper-bath. My guess on this was CuSO4, but what molar
> concentrate ? I don't know.
> - black hole agent. I have no idea what this is.
> - mild etching agent. Again, I have no idea. Dilute HCl ? 
> 
> I've asked for more details, but am currently waiting for them to wake
> up :) I think it's about 8AM over there as I type this...
> 

So such machine is built for black hole chemistry? It requires double
pass and micro etch (sulfuric acid with hidrogen peroxide or persulfates
to remove it from the surface). Personally for homebrew/small runs i
only care about palladium based ones. See it here:

http://books.google.pt/books?id=g9Q8RekeKaAC&pg=SA30-PA1&lpg=SA30-PA1
(not every page still available)
http://nr.stpi.org.tw/ejournal/proceedingA/v23n3/365-368.pdf


If you find this complicate, the copper bath itself is so much
difficult. And you still need 4 types of additives for it.


> ... and I've read that typically the shelf-life of these things isn't
> great...

The conductive polymer chemistries have volatile compounds. Palladium
based will last something like 2-5 years, but is better to use it at
least once a month. Black hole or graphite ones don't really know...

Sim�o

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Simao Cardoso <simaocardoso@...> wrote:
>
> spacedcowboy@... wrote:
> 
> 
> > The basic problem here is a lack of knowledge on my part. In their
> > initial email, they claimed there are 3 things I'll need:
> > 
> > - copper-bath. My guess on this was CuSO4, but what molar
> > concentrate ? I don't know.
> > - black hole agent. I have no idea what this is.
> > - mild etching agent. Again, I have no idea. Dilute HCl ? 
> > 
> > I've asked for more details, but am currently waiting for them to wake
> > up :) I think it's about 8AM over there as I type this...
> > 
> 
> So such machine is built for black hole chemistry? It requires double
> pass and micro etch (sulfuric acid with hidrogen peroxide or persulfates
> to remove it from the surface). Personally for homebrew/small runs i
> only care about palladium based ones. See it here:
> 
> http://books.google.pt/books?id=g9Q8RekeKaAC&pg=SA30-PA1&lpg=SA30-PA1
> (not every page still available)
> http://nr.stpi.org.tw/ejournal/proceedingA/v23n3/365-368.pdf
> 
> 
> If you find this complicate, the copper bath itself is so much
> difficult. And you still need 4 types of additives for it.
> 
> 
> > ... and I've read that typically the shelf-life of these things isn't
> > great...
> 
> The conductive polymer chemistries have volatile compounds. Palladium
> based will last something like 2-5 years, but is better to use it at
> least once a month. Black hole or graphite ones don't really know...
> 
> Simão
>

It looks to be a 3-stage process. They sent me the (Chinese) documentation, such as it is, and I ran it through Google to translate it. I still have some questions in to them, but I've put the "translated" document up at http://www.0x0000ff.com/tps/HW-K1000_english.pdf if you want to have a look.

Google translated the first stage of the process as "monolithic", which is ... less than revealing. As expected, it's some sort of cleaning stage though, because according to April, it "Is an alkaline degreasing solution the entire hole, it can effectively remove the copper foil on the oil, fingerprints, oxide film and dust, and has the role of the entire hole, can enhance the adhesion of copper layer". 

I may be wrong, but I think the links you originally posted were for a different process, right ? I've found a place that is promoting "Black-hole" chemistry, and they claim to be ever-so-user-friendly [grin]. Perhaps I can persuade them to match up their chemistry with what the machine expects...

Cheers
   Simon

So, LPKF will sell their chemistry separately (they just sent me a price-list) and they too have a 3-stage plus plating-stage process using black-hole techniques. So the new plan is to get the machine from China, and use the chemistry from LPKF.

The manual for the Mini-Contac-RS goes into quite some detail about how long to spend in each bath, what temperatures, the perils of using impure water for washing etc. It actually seems a fairly straightforward process though, and they offer used-chemistry-handling as well. So that seems to sort out the chemical side of things

As far as the hardware, from what I can tell it's basically a pre-built version of Markus Zingg's homebrew station (http://www.0x0000ff.com/tps/) - I doubt it uses the reverse-polarity-plating technique that LPKF boast about, but it's probably good enough for me assuming I don't try and push the limits of aspect ratio...

As far as I know (I only got the consumables pricelist), a Mini-Contac-RS is about $10k. The chinese version (admittedly less capable) is circa $1.5k. The former I have no chance of getting past my wife - the latter is vaguely possible :)

Simon.

Your bookkeeper is pretty easy if you can get a $1.5k hobby purchase past her :)

Donald.
--
*Plain Text* email -- it's an accessibility issue
()  no proprietary attachments; no html mail
/\  ascii ribbon campaign - <www.asciiribbon.org>

----- Original Message -----

> From: "spacedcowboy@..." <simon.gornall@...>
> To: "Homebrew PCBs" <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2010 6:39:16 PM
> Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Change of plan
> 
> So, LPKF will sell their chemistry separately (they just sent me a
> price-list) and they too have a 3-stage plus plating-stage process
> using black-hole techniques. So the new plan is to get the machine
> from China, and use the chemistry from LPKF.
> 
> The manual for the Mini-Contac-RS goes into quite some detail about
> how long to spend in each bath, what temperatures, the perils of using
> impure water for washing etc. It actually seems a fairly
> straightforward process though, and they offer used-chemistry-handling
> as well. So that seems to sort out the chemical side of things
> 
> As far as the hardware, from what I can tell it's basically a
> pre-built version of Markus Zingg's homebrew station
> (http://www.0x0000ff.com/tps/) - I doubt it uses the
> reverse-polarity-plating technique that LPKF boast about, but it's
> probably good enough for me assuming I don't try and push the limits
> of aspect ratio...
> 
> As far as I know (I only got the consumables pricelist), a
> Mini-Contac-RS is about $10k. The chinese version (admittedly less
> capable) is circa $1.5k. The former I have no chance of getting past
> my wife - the latter is vaguely possible :)
> 
> Simon.
>

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Donald H Locker <dhlocker@...> wrote:
>
> Your bookkeeper is pretty easy if you can get a $1.5k hobby purchase past her :)

She's a keen football/baseball fan too. I chose well ;)

Cheers
   Simon.

> Donald.
> --
> *Plain Text* email -- it's an accessibility issue
> ()  no proprietary attachments; no html mail
> /\  ascii ribbon campaign - <www.asciiribbon.org>
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> 
> > From: "spacedcowboy@..." <simon.gornall@...>
> > To: "Homebrew PCBs" <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2010 6:39:16 PM
> > Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Change of plan
> > 
> > So, LPKF will sell their chemistry separately (they just sent me a
> > price-list) and they too have a 3-stage plus plating-stage process
> > using black-hole techniques. So the new plan is to get the machine
> > from China, and use the chemistry from LPKF.
> > 
> > The manual for the Mini-Contac-RS goes into quite some detail about
> > how long to spend in each bath, what temperatures, the perils of using
> > impure water for washing etc. It actually seems a fairly
> > straightforward process though, and they offer used-chemistry-handling
> > as well. So that seems to sort out the chemical side of things
> > 
> > As far as the hardware, from what I can tell it's basically a
> > pre-built version of Markus Zingg's homebrew station
> > (http://www.0x0000ff.com/tps/) - I doubt it uses the
> > reverse-polarity-plating technique that LPKF boast about, but it's
> > probably good enough for me assuming I don't try and push the limits
> > of aspect ratio...
> > 
> > As far as I know (I only got the consumables pricelist), a
> > Mini-Contac-RS is about $10k. The chinese version (admittedly less
> > capable) is circa $1.5k. The former I have no chance of getting past
> > my wife - the latter is vaguely possible :)
> > 
> > Simon.
> >
>

At 04:27 PM 10/16/2010, you wrote:
>
>
>
>
>--- In 
><mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, 
>Donald H Locker <dhlocker@...> wrote:
> >
> > Your bookkeeper is pretty easy if you can get a $1.5k hobby 
> purchase past her :)
>
>She's a keen football/baseball fan too. I chose well ;)
>
>Cheers
>Simon.

Has she a sister?
Cristian 

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

<snip>


Simon:
You did good on the wife.  I too did good.  When we married in
1954 I was in the Air Force and did not have any thing, we were on a 
tight budget, and I wanted more test equipment. In 1956 I was in collage 
and when we came home for Christmas  she had somehow bought me 
a Hesthlkit scope and had it shipped to her Dad's house and she has 
been that way ever since.  Some time God smiles on you.

Derward Myrick PE  KD5WWI
  


  --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Donald H Locker <dhlocker@...> wrote:
  >
  > Your bookkeeper is pretty easy if you can get a $1.5k hobby purchase past her :)

  She's a keen football/baseball fan too. I chose well ;)

  Cheers
  Simon.

  > Donald.
  > --
  > *Plain Text* email -- it's an accessibility issue
  > () no proprietary attachments; no html mail
  > /\ ascii ribbon campaign - <www.asciiribbon.org>
  > 
  > ----- Original Message -----
  > 
  > > From: "spacedcowboy@..." <simon.gornall@...>
  > > To: "Homebrew PCBs" <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
  > > Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2010 6:39:16 PM
  > > Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Change of plan
  > > 
  > > So, LPKF will sell their chemistry separately (they just sent me a
  > > price-list) and they too have a 3-stage plus plating-stage process
  > > using black-hole techniques. So the new plan is to get the machine
  > > from China, and use the chemistry from LPKF.
  > > 
  > > The manual for the Mini-Contac-RS goes into quite some detail about
  > > how long to spend in each bath, what temperatures, the perils of using
  > > impure water for washing etc. It actually seems a fairly
  > > straightforward process though, and they offer used-chemistry-handling
  > > as well. So that seems to sort out the chemical side of things
  > > 
  > > As far as the hardware, from what I can tell it's basically a
  > > pre-built version of Markus Zingg's homebrew station
  > > (http://www.0x0000ff.com/tps/) - I doubt it uses the
  > > reverse-polarity-plating technique that LPKF boast about, but it's
  > > probably good enough for me assuming I don't try and push the limits
  > > of aspect ratio...
  > > 
  > > As far as I know (I only got the consumables pricelist), a
  > > Mini-Contac-RS is about $10k. The chinese version (admittedly less
  > > capable) is circa $1.5k. The former I have no chance of getting past
  > > my wife - the latter is vaguely possible :)
  > > 
  > > Simon.


  .
   


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Wow!  and I thought my best friend and partner of 34 years was good to me :)

Seems we are pretty lucky folk.
Donald.
--
*Plain Text* email -- it's an accessibility issue
()  no proprietary attachments; no html mail
/\  ascii ribbon campaign - <www.asciiribbon.org>

----- Original Message -----

> From: "Derward Myrick" <wdmyrick@...>
> To: "Homebrew PCBs" <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Saturday, October 16, 2010 11:39:31 AM
> Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Change of plan
> 
> <snip>
> 
> 
> Simon:
> You did good on the wife.  I too did good.  When we married in
> 1954 I was in the Air Force and did not have any thing, we were on a 
> tight budget, and I wanted more test equipment. In 1956 I was in collage 
> and when we came home for Christmas  she had somehow bought me 
> a Hesthlkit scope and had it shipped to her Dad's house and she has 
> been that way ever since.  Some time God smiles on you.
> 
> Derward Myrick PE  KD5WWI
>   
> 
> 
>   --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Donald H Locker <dhlocker@...>
> wrote:
>   >
>   > Your bookkeeper is pretty easy if you can get a $1.5k hobby
> purchase past her :)
> 
>   She's a keen football/baseball fan too. I chose well ;)
> 
>   Cheers
>   Simon.
> 
>   > Donald.
>   > --
>   > *Plain Text* email -- it's an accessibility issue
>   > () no proprietary attachments; no html mail
>   > /\ ascii ribbon campaign - <www.asciiribbon.org>
>   > 
>   > ----- Original Message -----
>   > 

[snip]