Homebrew PCBs

From: Randy S. <rj3819@...>
To: Homebrew_PCB <homebrew_pcbs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thu, February 17, 2011 1:09:39 AM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Toner not sticking to PCB well

  
OK .. went from the problem with the traces running together 
to the toner not sticking well to the copper .. 

Can it be that I'm not heating long enough ? 

Or can it also be that specific toner ? 

Its from a newer model HP copier .. 

Randy


 


      

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> From: "Randy S." <rj3819@...>
> To: "Homebrew PCBs" <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2011 1:13:58 AM
> Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Toner not sticking to PCB well
> 
> Could it also be not enough toner? 
> I tried to make the copies less dark .. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ________________________________
> From: Randy S. <rj3819@...>
> To: Homebrew_PCB <homebrew_pcbs@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Thu, February 17, 2011 1:09:39 AM
> Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Toner not sticking to PCB well
> 
>   
> OK .. went from the problem with the traces running together 
> to the toner not sticking well to the copper .. 
> 
> Can it be that I'm not heating long enough ? 
> 
> Or can it also be that specific toner ? 
> 
> Its from a newer model HP copier .. 
> 
> Randy
> 
> 
>  
> 
> 
>       
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------
> 
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and
> Photos:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
>

From: "kabowers@..." <kabowers@...>
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thu, February 17, 2011 9:15:51 AM
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Toner not sticking to PCB well

   
On Wed, 16 Feb 2011 22:09:39 -0800 (PST), you wrote:

>OK .. went from the problem with the traces running together 
>to the toner not sticking well to the copper .. 
>
>Can it be that I'm not heating long enough ? 
>
>Or can it also be that specific toner ? 
>
>Its from a newer model HP copier .. 
>
>Randy
>
>
The variables have variables. Unless HP has changed their toners work great.
I run mine (1022) at the highest quality/density setting.

There's a "sweet spot" between time, temperature and size of board. 
I did a 4x6 board a couple of days ago using with the iron set halfway 
between cotton and linen and ironed for 2.5 minutes with moderate pressure. 
Pay special attention to the edges. I paced the board in a folded Bounty 
paper towel and used an old cutting board for support. 

I use Hammermill OficeOne Business Glossy 32# paper (16302-0) which
may be discontinued. If you "overcook" this stuff it's almost impossible to
get off without pulling the toner off the copper. "Undercooking" results in
failure to adhere; "overcooking" or slippage results in smeared traces.

I recently failed to properly support a board in the center and had to strip
with acetone and start over due to traces running together; lesson learned.

A couple of years ago someone here suggested placing the board between
sheets of paper towel; this resulted in a major improvement for me.

Keith Bowers WB4LSJ- Thomasville, NC


 


      

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

From: Jeff Heiss <jeff.heiss@...>
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thu, February 17, 2011 12:25:40 PM
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Toner not sticking to PCB well

   
I really think is a problem with temperature.  My procedure derived from 
much experimenting is to set the laminator to 275F, preheat the board to 
around 250F, run the board through the laminator twice, preheat again to 
250F and pass through two more times.  The reason you have to preheat 
again is because it will cool by the second pass.  Do not depend on the 
laminator to heat the board.  It will not.  Do you have a thermocouple 
probe to take measurements?

On 2/17/2011 12:00 PM, Randy S. wrote:
>
> ok on the HP Toners ..
> I ran it thru the laminator ..and there was no sign of the toner even
> having thoughts of sticking to the board ..
> Either toner .. post office or the HP .. i guess its just not getting
> hot enough ..
> Are there popular laserjet printers used for PCB's ??
> I will keep trying .. and will try the paper towels ..
>
> Randy
>
> ________________________________
> From: "kabowers@... <mailto:kabowers%40NorthState.net>" 
> <kabowers@... <mailto:kabowers%40NorthState.net>>
> To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Thu, February 17, 2011 9:15:51 AM
> Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Toner not sticking to PCB well
>
> On Wed, 16 Feb 2011 22:09:39 -0800 (PST), you wrote:
>
> >OK .. went from the problem with the traces running together
> >to the toner not sticking well to the copper ..
> >
> >Can it be that I'm not heating long enough ?
> >
> >Or can it also be that specific toner ?
> >
> >Its from a newer model HP copier ..
> >
> >Randy
> >
> >
> The variables have variables. Unless HP has changed their toners work 
> great.
> I run mine (1022) at the highest quality/density setting.
>
> There's a "sweet spot" between time, temperature and size of board.
> I did a 4x6 board a couple of days ago using with the iron set halfway
> between cotton and linen and ironed for 2.5 minutes with moderate 
> pressure.
> Pay special attention to the edges. I paced the board in a folded Bounty
> paper towel and used an old cutting board for support.
>
> I use Hammermill OficeOne Business Glossy 32# paper (16302-0) which
> may be discontinued. If you "overcook" this stuff it's almost 
> impossible to
> get off without pulling the toner off the copper. "Undercooking" 
> results in
> failure to adhere; "overcooking" or slippage results in smeared traces.
>
> I recently failed to properly support a board in the center and had to 
> strip
> with acetone and start over due to traces running together; lesson 
> learned.
>
> A couple of years ago someone here suggested placing the board between
> sheets of paper towel; this resulted in a major improvement for me.
>
> Keith Bowers WB4LSJ- Thomasville, NC
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> 

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


 


      

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>
> ok .. thanks
> and yes .. have a thermocouple probe .. 
> I cant set the laminator temp .. 
> I guess its a cheaper "DUCK" laminator .. 
> But figured it was worth a try .. 
> I will try the preheat ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ________________________________
> From: Jeff Heiss <jeff.heiss@...>
> To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Thu, February 17, 2011 12:25:40 PM
> Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Toner not sticking to PCB well
> 
>    
> I really think is a problem with temperature.  My procedure derived from 
> much experimenting is to set the laminator to 275F, preheat the board to 
> around 250F, run the board through the laminator twice, preheat again to 
> 250F and pass through two more times.  The reason you have to preheat 
> again is because it will cool by the second pass.  Do not depend on the 
> laminator to heat the board.  It will not.  Do you have a thermocouple 
> probe to take measurements?
> 
> On 2/17/2011 12:00 PM, Randy S. wrote:
> >
> > ok on the HP Toners ..
> > I ran it thru the laminator ..and there was no sign of the toner even
> > having thoughts of sticking to the board ..
> > Either toner .. post office or the HP .. i guess its just not getting
> > hot enough ..
> > Are there popular laserjet printers used for PCB's ??
> > I will keep trying .. and will try the paper towels ..
> >
> > Randy
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: "kabowers@... <mailto:kabowers%40NorthState.net>" 
> > <kabowers@... <mailto:kabowers%40NorthState.net>>
> > To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Thu, February 17, 2011 9:15:51 AM
> > Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Toner not sticking to PCB well
> >
> > On Wed, 16 Feb 2011 22:09:39 -0800 (PST), you wrote:
> >
> > >OK .. went from the problem with the traces running together
> > >to the toner not sticking well to the copper ..
> > >
> > >Can it be that I'm not heating long enough ?
> > >
> > >Or can it also be that specific toner ?
> > >
> > >Its from a newer model HP copier ..
> > >
> > >Randy
> > >
> > >
> > The variables have variables. Unless HP has changed their toners work 
> > great.
> > I run mine (1022) at the highest quality/density setting.
> >
> > There's a "sweet spot" between time, temperature and size of board.
> > I did a 4x6 board a couple of days ago using with the iron set halfway
> > between cotton and linen and ironed for 2.5 minutes with moderate 
> > pressure.
> > Pay special attention to the edges. I paced the board in a folded Bounty
> > paper towel and used an old cutting board for support.
> >
> > I use Hammermill OficeOne Business Glossy 32# paper (16302-0) which
> > may be discontinued. If you "overcook" this stuff it's almost 
> > impossible to
> > get off without pulling the toner off the copper. "Undercooking" 
> > results in
> > failure to adhere; "overcooking" or slippage results in smeared traces.
> >
> > I recently failed to properly support a board in the center and had to 
> > strip
> > with acetone and start over due to traces running together; lesson 
> > learned.
> >
> > A couple of years ago someone here suggested placing the board between
> > sheets of paper towel; this resulted in a major improvement for me.
> >
> > Keith Bowers WB4LSJ- Thomasville, NC
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> > 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> 
> 
>  
> 
> 
>       
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

From: Andrew <a_wake@...>
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thu, February 17, 2011 1:01:23 PM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Toner not sticking to PCB well

   
Randy,

The advantage of a laminator is repeatability / consistency -- but only if the 
laminator gets hot enough. Even with a hot enough laminator, most people need to 
make multiple passes to get a good transfer.

You can get good transfers with an iron, but it becomes a little harder to 
adjust the variables -- was it too hot, or was I pressing too hard, or both, or 
??? With an iron, I do think it helps to have a hard, non-heat-conductive 
surface underneath, with some paper over top to help prevent over-heating and/or 
smearing.

With either iron or laminator, I've never pre-heated the board; the board (and 
particularly the copper layer) heats up very quickly. Your mention of the board 
"sizzling" sounded way too hot to me.

As others have said, HP toners generally work very well; you will want to print 
as densely as possible. The board needs to be very clean and dry; do not use any 
cleaners/solvents that will leave oily residue behind. I generally scrub the 
board with dish soap and water using a green scotch-brite pad, and then do a 
final wipe down with acetone. Do not touch the surface of the board after 
cleaning it!

I have made some decent boards using an iron. I now have a nice laminator with 
temperature and speed control, and it does increase the ease and consistency and 
therefore the speed with which I can make boards. I have also had better results 
with double-sided boards using the laminator.

The nice thing is that you can easily and cheaply experiment to find what works 
to give you good, consistent results. If a board transfers badly, just wipe it 
off with acetone (or scrub it off), reclean the board, and try again!

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Randy S." <rj3819@...> wrote:
>
> ok .. thanks
> and yes .. have a thermocouple probe .. 
> I cant set the laminator temp .. 
> I guess its a cheaper "DUCK" laminator .. 
> But figured it was worth a try .. 
> I will try the preheat ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ________________________________
> From: Jeff Heiss <jeff.heiss@...>
> To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Thu, February 17, 2011 12:25:40 PM
> Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Toner not sticking to PCB well
> 
> 
> I really think is a problem with temperature.  My procedure derived from 
> much experimenting is to set the laminator to 275F, preheat the board to 
> around 250F, run the board through the laminator twice, preheat again to 
> 250F and pass through two more times.  The reason you have to preheat 
> again is because it will cool by the second pass.  Do not depend on the 
> laminator to heat the board.  It will not.  Do you have a thermocouple 
> probe to take measurements?
> 
> On 2/17/2011 12:00 PM, Randy S. wrote:
> >
> > ok on the HP Toners ..
> > I ran it thru the laminator ..and there was no sign of the toner even
> > having thoughts of sticking to the board ..
> > Either toner .. post office or the HP .. i guess its just not getting
> > hot enough ..
> > Are there popular laserjet printers used for PCB's ??
> > I will keep trying .. and will try the paper towels ..
> >
> > Randy
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: "kabowers@... <mailto:kabowers%40NorthState.net>" 
> > <kabowers@... <mailto:kabowers%40NorthState.net>>
> > To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Thu, February 17, 2011 9:15:51 AM
> > Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Toner not sticking to PCB well
> >
> > On Wed, 16 Feb 2011 22:09:39 -0800 (PST), you wrote:
> >
> > >OK .. went from the problem with the traces running together
> > >to the toner not sticking well to the copper ..
> > >
> > >Can it be that I'm not heating long enough ?
> > >
> > >Or can it also be that specific toner ?
> > >
> > >Its from a newer model HP copier ..
> > >
> > >Randy
> > >
> > >
> > The variables have variables. Unless HP has changed their toners work 
> > great.
> > I run mine (1022) at the highest quality/density setting.
> >
> > There's a "sweet spot" between time, temperature and size of board.
> > I did a 4x6 board a couple of days ago using with the iron set halfway
> > between cotton and linen and ironed for 2.5 minutes with moderate 
> > pressure.
> > Pay special attention to the edges. I paced the board in a folded Bounty
> > paper towel and used an old cutting board for support.
> >
> > I use Hammermill OficeOne Business Glossy 32# paper (16302-0) which
> > may be discontinued. If you "overcook" this stuff it's almost 
> > impossible to
> > get off without pulling the toner off the copper. "Undercooking" 
> > results in
> > failure to adhere; "overcooking" or slippage results in smeared traces.
> >
> > I recently failed to properly support a board in the center and had to 
> > strip
> > with acetone and start over due to traces running together; lesson 
> > learned.
> >
> > A couple of years ago someone here suggested placing the board between
> > sheets of paper towel; this resulted in a major improvement for me.
> >
> > Keith Bowers WB4LSJ- Thomasville, NC
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> > 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>


 


      

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

From: Jeff Heiss <jeff.heiss@...>
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thu, February 17, 2011 1:48:14 PM
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Toner not sticking to PCB well

   
I used a modified GBC laminator.  Check "Another GBC Laminator Mod" in 
the Photos area for pictures.

On 2/17/2011 1:19 PM, Randy S. wrote:
>
> Which laminator do you use and if its not available .. have any 
> suggestions?
>
> ________________________________
> From: Andrew <a_wake@... <mailto:a_wake%40earthlink.net>>
> To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Thu, February 17, 2011 1:01:23 PM
> Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Toner not sticking to PCB well
>
> Randy,
>
> The advantage of a laminator is repeatability / consistency -- but 
> only if the
> laminator gets hot enough. Even with a hot enough laminator, most 
> people need to
> make multiple passes to get a good transfer.
>
> You can get good transfers with an iron, but it becomes a little 
> harder to
> adjust the variables -- was it too hot, or was I pressing too hard, or 
> both, or
> ??? With an iron, I do think it helps to have a hard, non-heat-conductive
> surface underneath, with some paper over top to help prevent 
> over-heating and/or
> smearing.
>
> With either iron or laminator, I've never pre-heated the board; the 
> board (and
> particularly the copper layer) heats up very quickly. Your mention of 
> the board
> "sizzling" sounded way too hot to me.
>
> As others have said, HP toners generally work very well; you will want 
> to print
> as densely as possible. The board needs to be very clean and dry; do 
> not use any
> cleaners/solvents that will leave oily residue behind. I generally 
> scrub the
> board with dish soap and water using a green scotch-brite pad, and 
> then do a
> final wipe down with acetone. Do not touch the surface of the board after
> cleaning it!
>
> I have made some decent boards using an iron. I now have a nice 
> laminator with
> temperature and speed control, and it does increase the ease and 
> consistency and
> therefore the speed with which I can make boards. I have also had 
> better results
> with double-sided boards using the laminator.
>
> The nice thing is that you can easily and cheaply experiment to find 
> what works
> to give you good, consistent results. If a board transfers badly, just 
> wipe it
> off with acetone (or scrub it off), reclean the board, and try again!
>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com 
> <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>, "Randy S." <rj3819@...> wrote:
> >
> > ok .. thanks
> > and yes .. have a thermocouple probe ..
> > I cant set the laminator temp ..
> > I guess its a cheaper "DUCK" laminator ..
> > But figured it was worth a try ..
> > I will try the preheat ...
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Jeff Heiss <jeff.heiss@...>
> > To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com 
> <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Thu, February 17, 2011 12:25:40 PM
> > Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Toner not sticking to PCB well
> >
> >
> > I really think is a problem with temperature. My procedure derived from
> > much experimenting is to set the laminator to 275F, preheat the 
> board to
> > around 250F, run the board through the laminator twice, preheat 
> again to
> > 250F and pass through two more times. The reason you have to preheat
> > again is because it will cool by the second pass. Do not depend on the
> > laminator to heat the board. It will not. Do you have a thermocouple
> > probe to take measurements?
> >
> > On 2/17/2011 12:00 PM, Randy S. wrote:
> > >
> > > ok on the HP Toners ..
> > > I ran it thru the laminator ..and there was no sign of the toner even
> > > having thoughts of sticking to the board ..
> > > Either toner .. post office or the HP .. i guess its just not getting
> > > hot enough ..
> > > Are there popular laserjet printers used for PCB's ??
> > > I will keep trying .. and will try the paper towels ..
> > >
> > > Randy
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: "kabowers@... <mailto:kabowers%40NorthState.net>"
> > > <kabowers@... <mailto:kabowers%40NorthState.net>>
> > > To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com 
> <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com> 
> <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > Sent: Thu, February 17, 2011 9:15:51 AM
> > > Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Toner not sticking to PCB well
> > >
> > > On Wed, 16 Feb 2011 22:09:39 -0800 (PST), you wrote:
> > >
> > > >OK .. went from the problem with the traces running together
> > > >to the toner not sticking well to the copper ..
> > > >
> > > >Can it be that I'm not heating long enough ?
> > > >
> > > >Or can it also be that specific toner ?
> > > >
> > > >Its from a newer model HP copier ..
> > > >
> > > >Randy
> > > >
> > > >
> > > The variables have variables. Unless HP has changed their toners work
> > > great.
> > > I run mine (1022) at the highest quality/density setting.
> > >
> > > There's a "sweet spot" between time, temperature and size of board.
> > > I did a 4x6 board a couple of days ago using with the iron set halfway
> > > between cotton and linen and ironed for 2.5 minutes with moderate
> > > pressure.
> > > Pay special attention to the edges. I paced the board in a folded 
> Bounty
> > > paper towel and used an old cutting board for support.
> > >
> > > I use Hammermill OficeOne Business Glossy 32# paper (16302-0) which
> > > may be discontinued. If you "overcook" this stuff it's almost
> > > impossible to
> > > get off without pulling the toner off the copper. "Undercooking"
> > > results in
> > > failure to adhere; "overcooking" or slippage results in smeared 
> traces.
> > >
> > > I recently failed to properly support a board in the center and 
> had to
> > > strip
> > > with acetone and start over due to traces running together; lesson
> > > learned.
> > >
> > > A couple of years ago someone here suggested placing the board between
> > > sheets of paper towel; this resulted in a major improvement for me.
> > >
> > > Keith Bowers WB4LSJ- Thomasville, NC
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> > >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> 

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


 


      

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

----- Original Message ----
From: Paul Mateer <paul.aa9gg@...>
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thu, February 17, 2011 2:00:50 PM
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Toner not sticking to PCB well

YES!!!

On Thu, Feb 17, 2011 at 12:56 PM, Randy S. <rj3819@...> wrote:

>
>
> Can not soaking the board for long enough prior to rubbing it off with your
>
> thumb
> cause the toner to come off the board?
>
> ________________________________
> From: Jeff Heiss <jeff.heiss@...>
> To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Thu, February 17, 2011 1:48:14 PM
> Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Toner not sticking to PCB well
>
> I used a modified GBC laminator. Check "Another GBC Laminator Mod" in
> the Photos area for pictures.
>
> On 2/17/2011 1:19 PM, Randy S. wrote:
> >
> > Which laminator do you use and if its not available .. have any
> > suggestions?
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Andrew <a_wake@... <mailto:a_wake%40earthlink.net>>
> > To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com <mailto:
> Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Thu, February 17, 2011 1:01:23 PM
> > Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Toner not sticking to PCB well
> >
> > Randy,
> >
> > The advantage of a laminator is repeatability / consistency -- but
> > only if the
> > laminator gets hot enough. Even with a hot enough laminator, most
> > people need to
> > make multiple passes to get a good transfer.
> >
> > You can get good transfers with an iron, but it becomes a little
> > harder to
> > adjust the variables -- was it too hot, or was I pressing too hard, or
> > both, or
> > ??? With an iron, I do think it helps to have a hard, non-heat-conductive
> > surface underneath, with some paper over top to help prevent
> > over-heating and/or
> > smearing.
> >
> > With either iron or laminator, I've never pre-heated the board; the
> > board (and
> > particularly the copper layer) heats up very quickly. Your mention of
> > the board
> > "sizzling" sounded way too hot to me.
> >
> > As others have said, HP toners generally work very well; you will want
> > to print
> > as densely as possible. The board needs to be very clean and dry; do
> > not use any
> > cleaners/solvents that will leave oily residue behind. I generally
> > scrub the
> > board with dish soap and water using a green scotch-brite pad, and
> > then do a
> > final wipe down with acetone. Do not touch the surface of the board after
> > cleaning it!
> >
> > I have made some decent boards using an iron. I now have a nice
> > laminator with
> > temperature and speed control, and it does increase the ease and
> > consistency and
> > therefore the speed with which I can make boards. I have also had
> > better results
> > with double-sided boards using the laminator.
> >
> > The nice thing is that you can easily and cheaply experiment to find
> > what works
> > to give you good, consistent results. If a board transfers badly, just
> > wipe it
> > off with acetone (or scrub it off), reclean the board, and try again!
> >
> > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> > <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>, "Randy S." <rj3819@...> wrote:
> > >
> > > ok .. thanks
> > > and yes .. have a thermocouple probe ..
> > > I cant set the laminator temp ..
> > > I guess its a cheaper "DUCK" laminator ..
> > > But figured it was worth a try ..
> > > I will try the preheat ...
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: Jeff Heiss <jeff.heiss@...>
> > > To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> > <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > Sent: Thu, February 17, 2011 12:25:40 PM
> > > Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Toner not sticking to PCB well
> > >
> > >
> > > I really think is a problem with temperature. My procedure derived from
> > > much experimenting is to set the laminator to 275F, preheat the
> > board to
> > > around 250F, run the board through the laminator twice, preheat
> > again to
> > > 250F and pass through two more times. The reason you have to preheat
> > > again is because it will cool by the second pass. Do not depend on the
> > > laminator to heat the board. It will not. Do you have a thermocouple
> > > probe to take measurements?
> > >
> > > On 2/17/2011 12:00 PM, Randy S. wrote:
> > > >
> > > > ok on the HP Toners ..
> > > > I ran it thru the laminator ..and there was no sign of the toner even
> > > > having thoughts of sticking to the board ..
> > > > Either toner .. post office or the HP .. i guess its just not getting
> > > > hot enough ..
> > > > Are there popular laserjet printers used for PCB's ??
> > > > I will keep trying .. and will try the paper towels ..
> > > >
> > > > Randy
> > > >
> > > > ________________________________
> > > > From: "kabowers@... <mailto:kabowers%40NorthState.net>"
> > > > <kabowers@... <mailto:kabowers%40NorthState.net>>
> > > > To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> > <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>
> > <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > Sent: Thu, February 17, 2011 9:15:51 AM
> > > > Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Toner not sticking to PCB well
> > > >
> > > > On Wed, 16 Feb 2011 22:09:39 -0800 (PST), you wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >OK .. went from the problem with the traces running together
> > > > >to the toner not sticking well to the copper ..
> > > > >
> > > > >Can it be that I'm not heating long enough ?
> > > > >
> > > > >Or can it also be that specific toner ?
> > > > >
> > > > >Its from a newer model HP copier ..
> > > > >
> > > > >Randy
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > The variables have variables. Unless HP has changed their toners work
> > > > great.
> > > > I run mine (1022) at the highest quality/density setting.
> > > >
> > > > There's a "sweet spot" between time, temperature and size of board.
> > > > I did a 4x6 board a couple of days ago using with the iron set
> halfway
> > > > between cotton and linen and ironed for 2.5 minutes with moderate
> > > > pressure.
> > > > Pay special attention to the edges. I paced the board in a folded
> > Bounty
> > > > paper towel and used an old cutting board for support.
> > > >
> > > > I use Hammermill OficeOne Business Glossy 32# paper (16302-0) which
> > > > may be discontinued. If you "overcook" this stuff it's almost
> > > > impossible to
> > > > get off without pulling the toner off the copper. "Undercooking"
> > > > results in
> > > > failure to adhere; "overcooking" or slippage results in smeared
> > traces.
> > > >
> > > > I recently failed to properly support a board in the center and
> > had to
> > > > strip
> > > > with acetone and start over due to traces running together; lesson
> > > > learned.
> > > >
> > > > A couple of years ago someone here suggested placing the board
> between
> > > > sheets of paper towel; this resulted in a major improvement for me.
> > > >
> > > > Keith Bowers WB4LSJ- Thomasville, NC
> > > >
> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>  
>



-- 
Paul Mateer, AA9GG
Elan Engineering Corp.
www.elanengr.com
NAQCC 3123, SKCC 4628, FPQRP 2003


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



------------------------------------

Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
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From: Randy S. <rj3819@...>
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thu, February 17, 2011 4:19:15 PM
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Toner not sticking to PCB well

  
Hey .. Paul
I'll take that as a yes .. 
LMAO ..

and thanks

----- Original Message ----
From: Paul Mateer <paul.aa9gg@...>
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thu, February 17, 2011 2:00:50 PM
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Toner not sticking to PCB well

YES!!!

On Thu, Feb 17, 2011 at 12:56 PM, Randy S. <rj3819@...> wrote:

>
>
> Can not soaking the board for long enough prior to rubbing it off with your
>
> thumb
> cause the toner to come off the board?
>
> ________________________________
> From: Jeff Heiss <jeff.heiss@...>
> To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Thu, February 17, 2011 1:48:14 PM
> Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Toner not sticking to PCB well
>
> I used a modified GBC laminator. Check "Another GBC Laminator Mod" in
> the Photos area for pictures.
>
> On 2/17/2011 1:19 PM, Randy S. wrote:
> >
> > Which laminator do you use and if its not available .. have any
> > suggestions?
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Andrew <a_wake@... <mailto:a_wake%40earthlink.net>>
> > To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com <mailto:
> Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Thu, February 17, 2011 1:01:23 PM
> > Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Toner not sticking to PCB well
> >
> > Randy,
> >
> > The advantage of a laminator is repeatability / consistency -- but
> > only if the
> > laminator gets hot enough. Even with a hot enough laminator, most
> > people need to
> > make multiple passes to get a good transfer.
> >
> > You can get good transfers with an iron, but it becomes a little
> > harder to
> > adjust the variables -- was it too hot, or was I pressing too hard, or
> > both, or
> > ??? With an iron, I do think it helps to have a hard, non-heat-conductive
> > surface underneath, with some paper over top to help prevent
> > over-heating and/or
> > smearing.
> >
> > With either iron or laminator, I've never pre-heated the board; the
> > board (and
> > particularly the copper layer) heats up very quickly. Your mention of
> > the board
> > "sizzling" sounded way too hot to me.
> >
> > As others have said, HP toners generally work very well; you will want
> > to print
> > as densely as possible. The board needs to be very clean and dry; do
> > not use any
> > cleaners/solvents that will leave oily residue behind. I generally
> > scrub the
> > board with dish soap and water using a green scotch-brite pad, and
> > then do a
> > final wipe down with acetone. Do not touch the surface of the board after
> > cleaning it!
> >
> > I have made some decent boards using an iron. I now have a nice
> > laminator with
> > temperature and speed control, and it does increase the ease and
> > consistency and
> > therefore the speed with which I can make boards. I have also had
> > better results
> > with double-sided boards using the laminator.
> >
> > The nice thing is that you can easily and cheaply experiment to find
> > what works
> > to give you good, consistent results. If a board transfers badly, just
> > wipe it
> > off with acetone (or scrub it off), reclean the board, and try again!
> >
> > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> > <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>, "Randy S." <rj3819@...> wrote:
> > >
> > > ok .. thanks
> > > and yes .. have a thermocouple probe ..
> > > I cant set the laminator temp ..
> > > I guess its a cheaper "DUCK" laminator ..
> > > But figured it was worth a try ..
> > > I will try the preheat ...
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: Jeff Heiss <jeff.heiss@...>
> > > To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> > <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > Sent: Thu, February 17, 2011 12:25:40 PM
> > > Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Toner not sticking to PCB well
> > >
> > >
> > > I really think is a problem with temperature. My procedure derived from
> > > much experimenting is to set the laminator to 275F, preheat the
> > board to
> > > around 250F, run the board through the laminator twice, preheat
> > again to
> > > 250F and pass through two more times. The reason you have to preheat
> > > again is because it will cool by the second pass. Do not depend on the
> > > laminator to heat the board. It will not. Do you have a thermocouple
> > > probe to take measurements?
> > >
> > > On 2/17/2011 12:00 PM, Randy S. wrote:
> > > >
> > > > ok on the HP Toners ..
> > > > I ran it thru the laminator ..and there was no sign of the toner even
> > > > having thoughts of sticking to the board ..
> > > > Either toner .. post office or the HP .. i guess its just not getting
> > > > hot enough ..
> > > > Are there popular laserjet printers used for PCB's ??
> > > > I will keep trying .. and will try the paper towels ..
> > > >
> > > > Randy
> > > >
> > > > ________________________________
> > > > From: "kabowers@... <mailto:kabowers%40NorthState.net>"
> > > > <kabowers@... <mailto:kabowers%40NorthState.net>>
> > > > To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> > <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>
> > <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > Sent: Thu, February 17, 2011 9:15:51 AM
> > > > Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Toner not sticking to PCB well
> > > >
> > > > On Wed, 16 Feb 2011 22:09:39 -0800 (PST), you wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >OK .. went from the problem with the traces running together
> > > > >to the toner not sticking well to the copper ..
> > > > >
> > > > >Can it be that I'm not heating long enough ?
> > > > >
> > > > >Or can it also be that specific toner ?
> > > > >
> > > > >Its from a newer model HP copier ..
> > > > >
> > > > >Randy
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > The variables have variables. Unless HP has changed their toners work
> > > > great.
> > > > I run mine (1022) at the highest quality/density setting.
> > > >
> > > > There's a "sweet spot" between time, temperature and size of board.
> > > > I did a 4x6 board a couple of days ago using with the iron set
> halfway
> > > > between cotton and linen and ironed for 2.5 minutes with moderate
> > > > pressure.
> > > > Pay special attention to the edges. I paced the board in a folded
> > Bounty
> > > > paper towel and used an old cutting board for support.
> > > >
> > > > I use Hammermill OficeOne Business Glossy 32# paper (16302-0) which
> > > > may be discontinued. If you "overcook" this stuff it's almost
> > > > impossible to
> > > > get off without pulling the toner off the copper. "Undercooking"
> > > > results in
> > > > failure to adhere; "overcooking" or slippage results in smeared
> > traces.
> > > >
> > > > I recently failed to properly support a board in the center and
> > had to
> > > > strip
> > > > with acetone and start over due to traces running together; lesson
> > > > learned.
> > > >
> > > > A couple of years ago someone here suggested placing the board
> between
> > > > sheets of paper towel; this resulted in a major improvement for me.
> > > >
> > > > Keith Bowers WB4LSJ- Thomasville, NC
> > > >
> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>  
>

-- 
Paul Mateer, AA9GG
Elan Engineering Corp.
www.elanengr.com
NAQCC 3123, SKCC 4628, FPQRP 2003

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

------------------------------------

Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links





      

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

From: Randy S. <rj3819@...>
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thu, February 17, 2011 4:59:17 PM
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Toner not sticking to PCB well

  
Off the PulsarProFx site:

Our amateur research led us to understand a few very important correlations 
between three basic properties of toner:
1) HEAT & PRESSURE - makes toner sticky ("fuse")
2) PRESSURE - determines at what temperature toner will "fuse"
3) TEMPERATURE - determines at what point toner will "melt"Randy

________________________________
From: Randy S. <rj3819@...>
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thu, February 17, 2011 4:19:15 PM
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Toner not sticking to PCB well

  
Hey .. Paul
I'll take that as a yes .. 
LMAO ..

and thanks

----- Original Message ----
From: Paul Mateer <paul.aa9gg@...>
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thu, February 17, 2011 2:00:50 PM
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Toner not sticking to PCB well

YES!!!

On Thu, Feb 17, 2011 at 12:56 PM, Randy S. <rj3819@...> wrote:

>
>
> Can not soaking the board for long enough prior to rubbing it off with your
>
> thumb
> cause the toner to come off the board?
>
> ________________________________
> From: Jeff Heiss <jeff.heiss@...>
> To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Thu, February 17, 2011 1:48:14 PM
> Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Toner not sticking to PCB well
>
> I used a modified GBC laminator. Check "Another GBC Laminator Mod" in
> the Photos area for pictures.
>
> On 2/17/2011 1:19 PM, Randy S. wrote:
> >
> > Which laminator do you use and if its not available .. have any
> > suggestions?
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Andrew <a_wake@... <mailto:a_wake%40earthlink.net>>
> > To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com <mailto:
> Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Thu, February 17, 2011 1:01:23 PM
> > Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Toner not sticking to PCB well
> >
> > Randy,
> >
> > The advantage of a laminator is repeatability / consistency -- but
> > only if the
> > laminator gets hot enough. Even with a hot enough laminator, most
> > people need to
> > make multiple passes to get a good transfer.
> >
> > You can get good transfers with an iron, but it becomes a little
> > harder to
> > adjust the variables -- was it too hot, or was I pressing too hard, or
> > both, or
> > ??? With an iron, I do think it helps to have a hard, non-heat-conductive
> > surface underneath, with some paper over top to help prevent
> > over-heating and/or
> > smearing.
> >
> > With either iron or laminator, I've never pre-heated the board; the
> > board (and
> > particularly the copper layer) heats up very quickly. Your mention of
> > the board
> > "sizzling" sounded way too hot to me.
> >
> > As others have said, HP toners generally work very well; you will want
> > to print
> > as densely as possible. The board needs to be very clean and dry; do
> > not use any
> > cleaners/solvents that will leave oily residue behind. I generally
> > scrub the
> > board with dish soap and water using a green scotch-brite pad, and
> > then do a
> > final wipe down with acetone. Do not touch the surface of the board after
> > cleaning it!
> >
> > I have made some decent boards using an iron. I now have a nice
> > laminator with
> > temperature and speed control, and it does increase the ease and
> > consistency and
> > therefore the speed with which I can make boards. I have also had
> > better results
> > with double-sided boards using the laminator.
> >
> > The nice thing is that you can easily and cheaply experiment to find
> > what works
> > to give you good, consistent results. If a board transfers badly, just
> > wipe it
> > off with acetone (or scrub it off), reclean the board, and try again!
> >
> > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> > <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>, "Randy S." <rj3819@...> wrote:
> > >
> > > ok .. thanks
> > > and yes .. have a thermocouple probe ..
> > > I cant set the laminator temp ..
> > > I guess its a cheaper "DUCK" laminator ..
> > > But figured it was worth a try ..
> > > I will try the preheat ...
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: Jeff Heiss <jeff.heiss@...>
> > > To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> > <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > Sent: Thu, February 17, 2011 12:25:40 PM
> > > Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Toner not sticking to PCB well
> > >
> > >
> > > I really think is a problem with temperature. My procedure derived from
> > > much experimenting is to set the laminator to 275F, preheat the
> > board to
> > > around 250F, run the board through the laminator twice, preheat
> > again to
> > > 250F and pass through two more times. The reason you have to preheat
> > > again is because it will cool by the second pass. Do not depend on the
> > > laminator to heat the board. It will not. Do you have a thermocouple
> > > probe to take measurements?
> > >
> > > On 2/17/2011 12:00 PM, Randy S. wrote:
> > > >
> > > > ok on the HP Toners ..
> > > > I ran it thru the laminator ..and there was no sign of the toner even
> > > > having thoughts of sticking to the board ..
> > > > Either toner .. post office or the HP .. i guess its just not getting
> > > > hot enough ..
> > > > Are there popular laserjet printers used for PCB's ??
> > > > I will keep trying .. and will try the paper towels ..
> > > >
> > > > Randy
> > > >
> > > > ________________________________
> > > > From: "kabowers@... <mailto:kabowers%40NorthState.net>"
> > > > <kabowers@... <mailto:kabowers%40NorthState.net>>
> > > > To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> > <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>
> > <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > Sent: Thu, February 17, 2011 9:15:51 AM
> > > > Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Toner not sticking to PCB well
> > > >
> > > > On Wed, 16 Feb 2011 22:09:39 -0800 (PST), you wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >OK .. went from the problem with the traces running together
> > > > >to the toner not sticking well to the copper ..
> > > > >
> > > > >Can it be that I'm not heating long enough ?
> > > > >
> > > > >Or can it also be that specific toner ?
> > > > >
> > > > >Its from a newer model HP copier ..
> > > > >
> > > > >Randy
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > The variables have variables. Unless HP has changed their toners work
> > > > great.
> > > > I run mine (1022) at the highest quality/density setting.
> > > >
> > > > There's a "sweet spot" between time, temperature and size of board.
> > > > I did a 4x6 board a couple of days ago using with the iron set
> halfway
> > > > between cotton and linen and ironed for 2.5 minutes with moderate
> > > > pressure.
> > > > Pay special attention to the edges. I paced the board in a folded
> > Bounty
> > > > paper towel and used an old cutting board for support.
> > > >
> > > > I use Hammermill OficeOne Business Glossy 32# paper (16302-0) which
> > > > may be discontinued. If you "overcook" this stuff it's almost
> > > > impossible to
> > > > get off without pulling the toner off the copper. "Undercooking"
> > > > results in
> > > > failure to adhere; "overcooking" or slippage results in smeared
> > traces.
> > > >
> > > > I recently failed to properly support a board in the center and
> > had to
> > > > strip
> > > > with acetone and start over due to traces running together; lesson
> > > > learned.
> > > >
> > > > A couple of years ago someone here suggested placing the board
> between
> > > > sheets of paper towel; this resulted in a major improvement for me.
> > > >
> > > > Keith Bowers WB4LSJ- Thomasville, NC
> > > >
> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>  
>

-- 
Paul Mateer, AA9GG
Elan Engineering Corp.
www.elanengr.com
NAQCC 3123, SKCC 4628, FPQRP 2003

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

------------------------------------

Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





      

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

----- Original Message -----

> From: "Randy S." <rj3819@...>
> To: "Homebrew PCBs" <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2011 1:56:36 PM
> Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Toner not sticking to PCB well
> 
> Can not soaking the board for long enough prior to rubbing it off with your  thumb
> cause the toner to come off the board?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ________________________________
> From: Jeff Heiss <jeff.heiss@...>
> To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Thu, February 17, 2011 1:48:14 PM
> Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Toner not sticking to PCB well
> 
>    
> I used a modified GBC laminator.  Check "Another GBC Laminator Mod" in 
> the Photos area for pictures.
> 
> On 2/17/2011 1:19 PM, Randy S. wrote:
> >
> > Which laminator do you use and if its not available .. have any 
> > suggestions?
> >

[snip]

>
> Heres an interesting approach .. 
> http://www.pulsarprofx.com/pcbfx/main_site/pages/tech_support/tips_n_tricks/1.html
> 
> 
> Randy
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ________________________________
> From: Randy S. <rj3819@...>
> To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Thu, February 17, 2011 4:59:17 PM
> Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Toner not sticking to PCB well
> 
> Â  
> Off the PulsarProFx site:
> 
> Our amateur research led us to understand a few very important correlations 
> between three basic properties of toner:
> 1) HEAT & PRESSURE - makes toner sticky ("fuse")
> 2) PRESSURE - determines at what temperature toner will "fuse"
> 3) TEMPERATURE - determines at what point toner will "melt"Randy
> 
> ________________________________
> From: Randy S. <rj3819@...>
> To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Thu, February 17, 2011 4:19:15 PM
> Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Toner not sticking to PCB well
> 
> Â  
> Hey .. Paul
> I'll take that as a yes .. 
> LMAO ..
> 
> and thanks
> 
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Paul Mateer <paul.aa9gg@...>
> To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Thu, February 17, 2011 2:00:50 PM
> Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Toner not sticking to PCB well
> 
> YES!!!
> 
> On Thu, Feb 17, 2011 at 12:56 PM, Randy S. <rj3819@...> wrote:
> 
> >
> >
> > Can not soaking the board for long enough prior to rubbing it off with your
> >
> > thumb
> > cause the toner to come off the board?
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Jeff Heiss <jeff.heiss@...>
> > To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Thu, February 17, 2011 1:48:14 PM
> > Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Toner not sticking to PCB well
> >
> > I used a modified GBC laminator. Check "Another GBC Laminator Mod" in
> > the Photos area for pictures.
> >
> > On 2/17/2011 1:19 PM, Randy S. wrote:
> > >
> > > Which laminator do you use and if its not available .. have any
> > > suggestions?
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: Andrew <a_wake@... <mailto:a_wake%40earthlink.net>>
> > > To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com <mailto:
> > Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > Sent: Thu, February 17, 2011 1:01:23 PM
> > > Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Toner not sticking to PCB well
> > >
> > > Randy,
> > >
> > > The advantage of a laminator is repeatability / consistency -- but
> > > only if the
> > > laminator gets hot enough. Even with a hot enough laminator, most
> > > people need to
> > > make multiple passes to get a good transfer.
> > >
> > > You can get good transfers with an iron, but it becomes a little
> > > harder to
> > > adjust the variables -- was it too hot, or was I pressing too hard, or
> > > both, or
> > > ??? With an iron, I do think it helps to have a hard, non-heat-conductive
> > > surface underneath, with some paper over top to help prevent
> > > over-heating and/or
> > > smearing.
> > >
> > > With either iron or laminator, I've never pre-heated the board; the
> > > board (and
> > > particularly the copper layer) heats up very quickly. Your mention of
> > > the board
> > > "sizzling" sounded way too hot to me.
> > >
> > > As others have said, HP toners generally work very well; you will want
> > > to print
> > > as densely as possible. The board needs to be very clean and dry; do
> > > not use any
> > > cleaners/solvents that will leave oily residue behind. I generally
> > > scrub the
> > > board with dish soap and water using a green scotch-brite pad, and
> > > then do a
> > > final wipe down with acetone. Do not touch the surface of the board after
> > > cleaning it!
> > >
> > > I have made some decent boards using an iron. I now have a nice
> > > laminator with
> > > temperature and speed control, and it does increase the ease and
> > > consistency and
> > > therefore the speed with which I can make boards. I have also had
> > > better results
> > > with double-sided boards using the laminator.
> > >
> > > The nice thing is that you can easily and cheaply experiment to find
> > > what works
> > > to give you good, consistent results. If a board transfers badly, just
> > > wipe it
> > > off with acetone (or scrub it off), reclean the board, and try again!
> > >
> > > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> > > <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>, "Randy S." <rj3819@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > ok .. thanks
> > > > and yes .. have a thermocouple probe ..
> > > > I cant set the laminator temp ..
> > > > I guess its a cheaper "DUCK" laminator ..
> > > > But figured it was worth a try ..
> > > > I will try the preheat ...
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ________________________________
> > > > From: Jeff Heiss <jeff.heiss@>
> > > > To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> > > <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > Sent: Thu, February 17, 2011 12:25:40 PM
> > > > Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Toner not sticking to PCB well
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I really think is a problem with temperature. My procedure derived from
> > > > much experimenting is to set the laminator to 275F, preheat the
> > > board to
> > > > around 250F, run the board through the laminator twice, preheat
> > > again to
> > > > 250F and pass through two more times. The reason you have to preheat
> > > > again is because it will cool by the second pass. Do not depend on the
> > > > laminator to heat the board. It will not. Do you have a thermocouple
> > > > probe to take measurements?
> > > >
> > > > On 2/17/2011 12:00 PM, Randy S. wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > ok on the HP Toners ..
> > > > > I ran it thru the laminator ..and there was no sign of the toner even
> > > > > having thoughts of sticking to the board ..
> > > > > Either toner .. post office or the HP .. i guess its just not getting
> > > > > hot enough ..
> > > > > Are there popular laserjet printers used for PCB's ??
> > > > > I will keep trying .. and will try the paper towels ..
> > > > >
> > > > > Randy
> > > > >
> > > > > ________________________________
> > > > > From: "kabowers@ <mailto:kabowers%40NorthState.net>"
> > > > > <kabowers@ <mailto:kabowers%40NorthState.net>>
> > > > > To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> > > <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > > Sent: Thu, February 17, 2011 9:15:51 AM
> > > > > Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Toner not sticking to PCB well
> > > > >
> > > > > On Wed, 16 Feb 2011 22:09:39 -0800 (PST), you wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > >OK .. went from the problem with the traces running together
> > > > > >to the toner not sticking well to the copper ..
> > > > > >
> > > > > >Can it be that I'm not heating long enough ?
> > > > > >
> > > > > >Or can it also be that specific toner ?
> > > > > >
> > > > > >Its from a newer model HP copier ..
> > > > > >
> > > > > >Randy
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > The variables have variables. Unless HP has changed their toners work
> > > > > great.
> > > > > I run mine (1022) at the highest quality/density setting.
> > > > >
> > > > > There's a "sweet spot" between time, temperature and size of board.
> > > > > I did a 4x6 board a couple of days ago using with the iron set
> > halfway
> > > > > between cotton and linen and ironed for 2.5 minutes with moderate
> > > > > pressure.
> > > > > Pay special attention to the edges. I paced the board in a folded
> > > Bounty
> > > > > paper towel and used an old cutting board for support.
> > > > >
> > > > > I use Hammermill OficeOne Business Glossy 32# paper (16302-0) which
> > > > > may be discontinued. If you "overcook" this stuff it's almost
> > > > > impossible to
> > > > > get off without pulling the toner off the copper. "Undercooking"
> > > > > results in
> > > > > failure to adhere; "overcooking" or slippage results in smeared
> > > traces.
> > > > >
> > > > > I recently failed to properly support a board in the center and
> > > had to
> > > > > strip
> > > > > with acetone and start over due to traces running together; lesson
> > > > > learned.
> > > > >
> > > > > A couple of years ago someone here suggested placing the board
> > between
> > > > > sheets of paper towel; this resulted in a major improvement for me.
> > > > >
> > > > > Keith Bowers WB4LSJ- Thomasville, NC
> > > > >
> > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> > >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >Â  
> >
> 
> -- 
> Paul Mateer, AA9GG
> Elan Engineering Corp.
> www.elanengr.com
> NAQCC 3123, SKCC 4628, FPQRP 2003
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> 
> ------------------------------------
> 
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>       
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

From: Donald H Locker <dhlocker@...>
To: Homebrew PCBs <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thu, February 17, 2011 8:12:12 PM
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Toner not sticking to PCB well

  
NO!!!

Donald.
Reason - Toner is not water soluble.
--
*Plain Text* email -- it's an accessibility issue
() no proprietary attachments; no html mail
/\ ascii ribbon campaign - <www.asciiribbon.org>

----- Original Message -----

> From: "Randy S." <rj3819@...>
> To: "Homebrew PCBs" <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2011 1:56:36 PM
> Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Toner not sticking to PCB well
> 
> Can not soaking the board for long enough prior to rubbing it off with your 
>thumb
> cause the toner to come off the board?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ________________________________
> From: Jeff Heiss <jeff.heiss@...>
> To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Thu, February 17, 2011 1:48:14 PM
> Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Toner not sticking to PCB well
> 
> 
> I used a modified GBC laminator. Check "Another GBC Laminator Mod" in 
> the Photos area for pictures.
> 
> On 2/17/2011 1:19 PM, Randy S. wrote:
> >
> > Which laminator do you use and if its not available .. have any 
> > suggestions?
> >

[snip]




      

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

----- Original Message -----

> From: "Randy S." <rj3819@yahoo.com>
> To: "Homebrew PCBs" <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2011 8:25:54 PM
> Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Toner not sticking to PCB well
> 
> Too funny .. I have a definite no and yes LOL
> Yeah .. more reading .. not fusing to the board .. 
> I guess if you can rub it off the etchant is going
> to get in and under it anyways?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ________________________________
> From: Donald H Locker <dhlocker@comcast.net>
> To: Homebrew PCBs <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Thu, February 17, 2011 8:12:12 PM
> Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Toner not sticking to PCB well
> 
>   
> NO!!!
> 
> Donald.
> Reason - Toner is not water soluble.
> --
> *Plain Text* email -- it's an accessibility issue
> () no proprietary attachments; no html mail
> /\ ascii ribbon campaign - <www.asciiribbon.org>
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> 
> > From: "Randy S." <rj3819@...>
> > To: "Homebrew PCBs" <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2011 1:56:36 PM
> > Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Toner not sticking to PCB well
> > 
> > Can not soaking the board for long enough prior to rubbing it off with your 
> >thumb
> > cause the toner to come off the board?
> > 
> > 

[snip]

From: Donald H Locker <dhlocker@...>
To: Homebrew PCBs <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thu, February 17, 2011 8:38:52 PM
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Toner not sticking to PCB well

   
Fortunately, this discrepancy can be resolved by a simple experiment.  Fuse the 
toner to the Cu-clad as you have in the past (where the traces merged) then try 
rubbing them off under water and/or with various solvents.  (Hint - start with 
water, then water with soap, water with detergent, isopropanol, ethanol, 
methanol, acetone, ...  Test each solvent on areas that weren't affected by 
previous solvents, and on virgin toner.) 


Let us know the results.
Donald.
--
*Plain Text* email -- it's an accessibility issue
()  no proprietary attachments; no html mail
/\  ascii ribbon campaign - <www.asciiribbon.org>

----- Original Message -----

> From: "Randy S." <rj3819@...>
> To: "Homebrew PCBs" <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2011 8:25:54 PM
> Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Toner not sticking to PCB well
> 
> Too funny .. I have a definite no and yes LOL
> Yeah .. more reading .. not fusing to the board .. 
> I guess if you can rub it off the etchant is going
> to get in and under it anyways?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ________________________________
> From: Donald H Locker <dhlocker@...>
> To: Homebrew PCBs <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Thu, February 17, 2011 8:12:12 PM
> Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Toner not sticking to PCB well
> 
>   
> NO!!!
> 
> Donald.
> Reason - Toner is not water soluble.
> --
> *Plain Text* email -- it's an accessibility issue
> () no proprietary attachments; no html mail
> /\ ascii ribbon campaign - <www.asciiribbon.org>
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> 
> > From: "Randy S." <rj3819@...>
> > To: "Homebrew PCBs" <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2011 1:56:36 PM
> > Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Toner not sticking to PCB well
> > 
> > Can not soaking the board for long enough prior to rubbing it off with your 
> >thumb
> > cause the toner to come off the board?
> > 
> > 

[snip]

 


      

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]