> Sort of just proving anyone can do it.
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> On 12/10/2016 10:33 AM, Harvey White madyn@...[Homebrew_PCBs] wrote:
>>
>> On Sat, 10 Dec 2016 10:07:59 -0500, you wrote:
>>
>> >Sure
>> >..... there are SOIC size chips not being offered in DIP
>>
>> Complete product lines, for example.
>>
>> >BUT
>> >for the millions of wannabe DIY newbies playing with electronics for ham
>> >radio and ARDUINO and
>> >robotics ....... we are not needing those SOIC chips to have our fun.
>>
>> The problem arrives when you need heavier duty fun that a an Arduino
>> based system cannot provide, or when you decide that the Arduino
>> framework is too limited.
>>
>> For many, Arduino is sufficient. There are cases when arduinos are
>> not sufficient.
>>
>> >
>> >Speaking of LCDs and SOIC.....
>> >I thought I had bought a SOIC adapter but found that it had 16 pins in
>> >the space of the 8 pins of a
>> >PIC12F675..... so I added a layer of adaptation:
>> >http://www.learnmorsecode.com/pic/soic/soic1.jpg
>> >http://www.learnmorsecode.com/pic/soic/soic2.jpg
>> >http://www.learnmorsecode.com/pic/soic/soic3.jpg
>> >and still had a fit problem...... bent pins to cure.
>> >
>> >As Jim is having a heck of a time getting SOIC chip carriers to mate
>> >with DIP... in everything from
>> >actual circuits to burners......
>> >I have to question the NEED to miniaturize everything......
>> >Like .. to Ancel .....the PIC12F675 laminator controller..
>> >why make it so small?
>>
>> If you need a PC board that has plated through holes, and want real
>> plated through holes, you're going to have someone else make the
>> board. There are people who can do plated through holes, but that's
>> another matter.
>>
>> If you have boards made, then size becomes important, since board
>> costs are per square inch, for instance.
>>
>> There are also packaging situations where size is important.
>>
>> >Why use SMT instead of DIP for that project?
>> >I think SMT prohibits some newbies from electronics exploration.
>>
>> It does, and some people never go past pre-built boards. Some never
>> go past DIP and through hole, and some need additional capabilities.
>>
>> >
>> >And LCD....
>> >
>> >Complete LCD modules cost $1.60 now:
>> >LCD Display Character Module LCM 16x2 HD4478Controller Blue Blacklight
>> >1602 RX
>> >http://www.learnmorsecode.com/laminator/pic/lcdexp01.jpg
>> >
>> >20 years ago I paid MOUSER $40 to buy that same LCD.
>> >
>> >So now it costs about $2 to add debugging and status information to any
>> >$2 PIC circuit
>> >without having to accommodate "In circuit Programming" or any advanced IDE
>> >running a real time debugger.
>>
>> I'm thinking a display from QVGA up to VGA, running graphics, having
>> GUI capabilities. Unfortunately, we're not talking the same LCD
>> display.
>>
>> You would like to have an advanced IDE running a real time debugger
>> for this. The complexity of the design (system wise) dictates the
>> complexity of the software (size of flash/ram in chip) which then
>> dictates the complexity of the hardware. That, in turn, changes the
>> desired construction method.
>>
>> Harvey
>>
>> >
>> >
>> >On 12/10/2016 09:20 AM, Harvey White madyn@...
>> >[Homebrew_PCBs] wrote:
>> >>
>> >> On Sat, 10 Dec 2016 01:04:41 -0500, you wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >PANTUM here now waiting to be hacked.
>> >> >
>> >> >SOIC is definitely doable.
>> >> >This is a PIC16F629
>> >> >http://www.learnmorsecode.com/laminator/etch/testetch5070.jpg
>> >> >http://www.learnmorsecode.com/laminator/etch/testetch5077.jpg
>> >> >http://www.learnmorsecode.com/laminator/etch/index.html
>> >> >
>> >> >I sort of think of SOIC as a novelty.
>> >> >Nothing in my hobby electronics world mandates SOIC.
>> >> >Nothing SOIC has replaced anything DIP here because DIP is obsolete and
>> >> >unavailable.
>> >>
>> >> There are chips that are not available in DIP packages. Any ATMEL
>> >> XMEGA and the EPSON S1D13781 LCD display controller. The LCD
>> >> controller is 0.5 mm spacing and the CPU is about 0.6. You'd want to
>> >> use 0805 or 1206 SMT parts with the design.
>> >>
>> >> If you're doing that kind of design, you end up doing SMT parts. It's
>> >> a slightly different world, but you can do 10/10 with toner transfer.
>> >>
>> >> All depends on what you want to build.
>> >>
>> >> Harvey
>> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >I only show and tell SMT to educate the kids..... and intrigue the
>> >> >adults with
>> >> >007 James Bond transmitters.... KNIGHTSMITE in a mint can.
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >On 12/09/2016 11:35 PM, 'Tony Smith' ajsmith1968@...
>> >> >[Homebrew_PCBs] wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Probably the best hobbyist method these days is to modify a cheap
>> >> >> printer to do direct printing as pioneered by Mark Lerman
>> >> >> (spelling?). That didn’t seem possible but he proved us wrong. The
>> >> >> only consumable is acetone which other toner methods needs anyway.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Laser & paint might be even easier but I’ve yet to try it.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I’ve been finding for fine pitch work it’s easier to buy those
>> >> >> adapters, solder the SMD part to that and them soldering that to the
>> >> >> main board is easier. Packs of those are pretty cheap these days.
>> >> >> You convert the SMD into through hole so the main board is simpler. As
>> >> >> usual YMMV.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Tony
>> >> >>
>> >> >> *From:*Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
>> >> >> [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com]
>> >> >> *Sent:* Saturday, 10 December 2016 2:59 PM
>> >> >> *To:* Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
>> >> >> *Subject:* Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] IS GREEN TRF the same thing as Heat
>> >> >> Transfer Foil Pigment Laser Toner Foil
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> The goal was to figure out if the touchup pen can be omitted from the
>> >> >> process.
>> >> >> Its hard to see to do the touchup.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> And as far as return on investment goes......
>> >> >> IF it works with the craft TRF then that works out to less than a dime
>> >> >> of TRF per PCB.
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> On 12/09/2016 10:18 PM, 'Tony Smith' ajsmith1968@...
>> >> >> <mailto:ajsmith1968@...> [Homebrew_PCBs] wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I don’t think the foil is going to add much that touching up with
>> >> >> a pen won’t already.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> The foil will probably lessen the edge quality (ragged edges) and
>> >> >> possibly spread the traces when run through the laminator again.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I’m a bit dubious about the return on investment there. I
>> >> >> remember this stuff from years ago.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Anyway, no harm trying. Less harm if it’s someone else trying it!
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Tony
>> >> >>
>> >> >> *From:*Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
>> >> >> <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
>> >> >> [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com]
>> >> >> *Sent:* Saturday, 10 December 2016 1:53 PM
>> >> >> *To:* Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
>> >> >> <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
>> >> >> *Subject:* Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] IS GREEN TRF the same thing as Heat
>> >> >> Transfer Foil Pigment Laser Toner Foil
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Because the toner is not 100 percent etch resistant.
>> >> >> The toner leaks. Not a lot, a pin hole here and there.. a tracing
>> >> >> gap ..... imperfections.
>> >> >> The toner transfer isn't always perfect for me..... close... real
>> >> >> close to perfection.....
>> >> >> but not perfect every time.
>> >> >>http://www.learnmorsecode.com/laminator/pic/PIC16F628PROTO8d.jpg
>> >> >>
>> >> >> So I have taken up the procedure of going over the toner with a
>> >> >> sharpie permanent marker...
>> >> >> then found EDDING 404 MUCH better than the sharpie.....
>> >> >> and getting excellent etchings:
>> >> >> http://www.learnmorsecode.com/pic/line/IMG_5156a.JPG
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> So now we have this problem solved by an arts and crafts type of
>> >> >> transfer method
>> >> >> that is known to STICK TO TONER quite well.
>> >> >> I have not used it yet but intend to learn if the cheap 100 foot
>> >> >> craft toner reactive foil will
>> >> >> deposit an acid resistent layer.
>> >> >> It would save me the task of tracing the toner.
>> >> >> One thing to note about all this testing on my stuff is that I'm
>> >> >> not manufacturing anythign to sell.
>> >> >> I'm just documenting what works for me to share with the
>> >> >> kids....scouts....newbies......
>> >> >> and I'm not making real tiny SMT projects.....
>> >> >> much of my traces are 1/8th inch and nothing real critical here.
>> >> >> BUT
>> >> >> its nice to learn how this CAN be done smaller.....
>> >> >> and I don't think its possible to hand trace SMT toner traces
>> >> >> without screwing them up.
>> >> >> So if TRF foils do this sealant task then that would be real nice
>> >> >> to learn.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> And yes... I had that same thought about foil... metal...
>> >> >> etching......
>> >> >> so I bought the notsoshiny stuff to play with...thinking its just
>> >> >> the pigment we want to stick to the toner.
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>> >> >> FROM :https://www.circuitspecialists.com/pcb-trf-green.html
>> >> >> This Green foil has a special adhesive coating ("sizing") applied
>> >> >> underneath the pigment color. When the foil and toner image are
>> >> >> subjected to high heat and pressure, the color permanently fuse to
>> >> >> just the toner image.
>> >> >> The interesting thing about toner (from a laser printer or
>> >> >> photo-copier) is that it is madeup of about 55% pulverized
>> >> >> plastic. So, by covering a toner printed image previously
>> >> >> transferred to the copper board, and applying heat & pressure to
>> >> >> it, the foil encapsulate the toner. In effect, the black toner
>> >> >> turns either Green or White. We use these two foils for two
>> >> >> different purposes.
>> >> >> GreenTRF is used to seal the toner "circuit image" after it has
>> >> >> been transferred to the circuit board.
>> >> >> Toner is a very porous material. If left alone and the board was
>> >> >> etched, you'd wind up with pitted surfaces or even hairline breaks
>> >> >> from cracks that were too small to see with the naked eye.
>> >> >> GreenTRF solves this problem by completely encapsulating the toner
>> >> >> image in one easy step. An absolute "must have" for producing
>> >> >> quality boards.
>> >> >> Film for colorizing and sealing black toner used as an "etch resist".
>> >> >> 8" wide, 15 feet long.
>> >> >> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> On 12/09/2016 09:06 PM, 'Tony Smith' ajsmith1968@...
>> >> >> <mailto:ajsmith1968@...> [Homebrew_PCBs] wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Why bother putting foil over toner if the toner already works
>> >> >> as a resist?
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Shiny though!
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I wonder if it’s conductive…
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Tony
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I see there is this:
>> >> >> Heat Transfer Foil Pigment Laser Toner Foil 8"x100' Roll OR
>> >> >> 4"x100' Roll US Made
>> >> >> so
>> >> >> I bought the 4 inch X 100 foot roll for $15 just to try it out.
>> >> >> Instructions all over the YOUTUBE say how to apply it to toner
>> >> >> artwork with an iron or laminator
>> >> >> so this looks to me like it might work for etching.
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> On 12/09/2016 10:56 AM, Rob roomberg@...
>> >> >> <mailto:roomberg@ptd.net> [Homebrew_PCBs] wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I tried nail polish. I got what looked like crackle paint
>> >> >> hairline webs in the final copper traces.....
>> >> >> looked almost like ice crystals.... seemed to have shrunk
>> >> >> when it dried and then allowed acid to etch where it shrunk.
>> >> >> Considering all nail polish is not created equal there may
>> >> >> be a better etch resist nail polish. I am not the
>> >> >> guy to test all of them.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> At $9 ....seems the price of 15 feet of GREEN TRF is cheep
>> >> >> enough to warrant experimenting with it.
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> On 12/09/2016 04:25 AM, Kevin Byrne kbyrne10@...
>> >> >> <mailto:kbyrne10@...> [Homebrew_PCBs] wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Yea but my Green TRF gets perfect copper traces no
>> >> >> pits, no joke. Green trf under pieces of steel after?
>> >> >> Would it work? My old way was cheep nail polish a
>> >> >> cheep artist brush and direct etch. Nail polish
>> >> >> remover to remove nail polish after acid bath. That
>> >> >> could be done cheep by just going to dollar store for
>> >> >> supplies and no more pits for your art work on copper.
>> >> >> Kevin
>> >> >>
>> >> >> ----------------------------------------------------------
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
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>> >> >>
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>> >> >>
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>> >> >>
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>> >> >>
>> >>
>> >>
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