Homebrew PCBs

Just thought I would post my results using the GBC-Creative 
laminator - A4. This may be some benefit to the Australian readers
 
This is a cheap and cheerfull laminator I purchased for $65 Australia 
Dollars in Officeworks. It has no speed/temp control but will accept 
media up to 2mm in thickness.
 
Using the toner-transfer with magazine paper I have achieved 
acceptable results passing the paper/toner/PCB material through 6-8 
times.

Upon soaking and removing the paper the toner seems to bond well to 
the copper foil.

The laminator has metal exit guides that may prove some trouble 
catching the taped leading edge of the magazine paper as it goes 
though the laminator. However I found that if I folded the magazine 
paper in half and placed the PCM material along the fold of the paper 
so there were no paper edges on the leading side of the stack then it 
all seemed to work fine.

I am very impressed with the results as I had almost all but give up 
on the Toner transer method with the clothes iron.


I wonder if this violates the first line in there instruction 
manual. "Do not used of any other purpose that intended"??

Cheers,
David

>
>
> I wonder if this violates the first line in there instruction
> manual. "Do not used of any other purpose that intended"??
>

Other puropose? They must think of those crazy guys that try to fuse
plastic sheets around paper and cardboard, obvious that this won't work ;-)

Nice to hear it does like it should.
I really need to try magazine paper again some time with the fuser...
I have tried different kinds and it didn't work at all.
Some papers form bubbles in the fuser of the printer, they are no good.
Others don't release the toner at all.
how thick is the paper you use?
is it the more expensive glossy magazine paper (>=80gr/m^2)
or is it the very thin paper (much thinner than office paper)?

thanks

ST

> Cheers,
> David
>

Well, that is the thing. I had read all I could on the toner transfer 
method as was looking for suuitable paper. Magazines, catalogs and 
books where no longer magazines, catalogs and books. They had all 
simply become 'samples' of paper to try TT with.

Initally I was looking for paper with a very smooth finish (very 
glossy magazines) as I thought that this was the "high clay content" 
paper that I was supposed to be using. Nice shiny smooth finish 
should make it easier to release the toner right?

I acheived average results with this paper but if I choose a page 
that had dark graphics on it then I did had trouble with the paper 
blitering as it went through the fuser.

Having also read the 'time magazine' success people had had. I went 
to the newsagent and had a look at what this paper was like. (as well 
as a lot of other magazines) I was suprised to see that the time 
magazine was not a very glossing finish. (Well not in Australia at 
least)

This got me thinking that the super high gloss was not necassary and 
to try other less glossy magazines.  I have settled on using a 
magazine that has mildly glossy finish but is quite thin. (Certainly 
a lot thinner than the 80 g.s.m. copier paper)  I was amazed at the 
detail of the toner transfer. 10mil tracks looked quite OK and best 
of all the paper almost falls off when soaked for long enough.

Now I am convinced that this is the 'high clay content' paper that I 
should be using. Having completed soaking the board removing the 
paper, as the board is drying if I rub the board/traces I get a white 
residue over the board. I am assuming this is the clay content of the 
paper. It doesn't seem to cause trouble as it washed of when the 
board is next wet.


Now, describing the paper:

It is quite a thin paper that is smooth to touch however is not 
overly glossy. I suppose a semi-gloss finish. My source is an 
Australian "Airborne" magazine which I doubt is available outside 
Australia. I imagine it is a fairly small circulation magazine and 
therefore the paper will be a budget paper. It is not rough like 
newsprint. Judging from the result of the tonner transfer I think is 
must have small cellulose fiber length as the paper fibres that 
remain on the toner bonded to the copper appear to be very small. Not 
like the 80 gsm copy paper which had huge fibers hanging out of the 
toner causing fuzzy edges and bridges between traces.

This has become quite a long post and probably far in excess of what 
you were asking ST but I have been meaning to share these results 
with the group for a while to give a bit back.  

To summarise I know myself and a few other friends that have tried TT 
assumed that the most glossy paper was the way to go for better toner 
release. We were completely surprised when less glossy, thinner paper 
turned out better results. I beleive due to smaller fiber length and 
greater clay content just as a gut feel.

Cheers,
David


 



> Nice to hear it does like it should.
> I really need to try magazine paper again some time with the 
fuser...
> I have tried different kinds and it didn't work at all.
> Some papers form bubbles in the fuser of the printer, they are no 
good.

> Others don't release the toner at all.
> how thick is the paper you use?
> is it the more expensive glossy magazine paper (>=80gr/m^2)
> or is it the very thin paper (much thinner than office paper)?
> 
> thanks
> 
> ST
> 
> > Cheers,
> > David
> >

my best results come from financial organization's newsletters.  
merrill lynch sends me a ton of this garbage and it works wonderfully.

this paper is moderately heavy but not super glossy which agrees with 
your observations.  I have not seen the darker areas causing problems 
but avoid them anyway since its harder to see the pattern and align 
it with board

I have had good luck with thinner paper as well but the ML stuff 
comes nice and flat for feeding through my copier.


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "bnmj2000" <yahoo@d...> wrote:
> Well, that is the thing. I had read all I could on the toner 
transfer 
> method as was looking for suuitable paper. Magazines, catalogs and 
> books where no longer magazines, catalogs and books. They had all 
> simply become 'samples' of paper to try TT with.
> 
> Initally I was looking for paper with a very smooth finish (very 
> glossy magazines) as I thought that this was the "high clay 
content" 
> paper that I was supposed to be using. Nice shiny smooth finish 
> should make it easier to release the toner right?
> 
> I acheived average results with this paper but if I choose a page 
> that had dark graphics on it then I did had trouble with the paper 
> blitering as it went through the fuser.
> 
> Having also read the 'time magazine' success people had had. I went 
> to the newsagent and had a look at what this paper was like. (as 
well 
> as a lot of other magazines) I was suprised to see that the time 
> magazine was not a very glossing finish. (Well not in Australia at 
> least)
> 
> This got me thinking that the super high gloss was not necassary 
and 
> to try other less glossy magazines.  I have settled on using a 
> magazine that has mildly glossy finish but is quite thin. 
(Certainly 
> a lot thinner than the 80 g.s.m. copier paper)  I was amazed at the 
> detail of the toner transfer. 10mil tracks looked quite OK and best 
> of all the paper almost falls off when soaked for long enough.
> 
> Now I am convinced that this is the 'high clay content' paper that 
I 
> should be using. Having completed soaking the board removing the 
> paper, as the board is drying if I rub the board/traces I get a 
white 
> residue over the board. I am assuming this is the clay content of 
the 
> paper. It doesn't seem to cause trouble as it washed of when the 
> board is next wet.
> 
> 
> Now, describing the paper:
> 
> It is quite a thin paper that is smooth to touch however is not 
> overly glossy. I suppose a semi-gloss finish. My source is an 
> Australian "Airborne" magazine which I doubt is available outside 
> Australia. I imagine it is a fairly small circulation magazine and 
> therefore the paper will be a budget paper. It is not rough like 
> newsprint. Judging from the result of the tonner transfer I think 
is 
> must have small cellulose fiber length as the paper fibres that 
> remain on the toner bonded to the copper appear to be very small. 
Not 
> like the 80 gsm copy paper which had huge fibers hanging out of the 
> toner causing fuzzy edges and bridges between traces.
> 
> This has become quite a long post and probably far in excess of 
what 
> you were asking ST but I have been meaning to share these results 
> with the group for a while to give a bit back.  
> 
> To summarise I know myself and a few other friends that have tried 
TT 
> assumed that the most glossy paper was the way to go for better 
toner 
> release. We were completely surprised when less glossy, thinner 
paper 
> turned out better results. I beleive due to smaller fiber length 
and 

> greater clay content just as a gut feel.
> 
> Cheers,
> David
> 
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 
> > Nice to hear it does like it should.
> > I really need to try magazine paper again some time with the 
> fuser...
> > I have tried different kinds and it didn't work at all.
> > Some papers form bubbles in the fuser of the printer, they are no 
> good.
> > Others don't release the toner at all.
> > how thick is the paper you use?
> > is it the more expensive glossy magazine paper (>=80gr/m^2)
> > or is it the very thin paper (much thinner than office paper)?
> > 
> > thanks
> > 
> > ST
> > 
> > > Cheers,
> > > David
> > >

Hi David,

not long enough a post i would say ;-).

It helps a lot, now i have a idea what to look out for.
i was also seeking for the very glossy smooth paper.

I will try more things like you describe it.
The photopaper i have is not bad, but if i can get it
for free too ;-)...

I know it is very hard to let me know how your paper is,
this is easiest done by feeling.
Not even a photo is any great help.
You have done a good job of describing it...

I will collect some paper and try next time.

thanks

ST

>
> Cheers,
> David
>
>
>

Many thanks for that post David.  You have saved another Aussie heaps of
effort.  Now I only need to persuade number 1 son that he should devote his
Airborne magazines to a worthier cause...
Actually, it would probably be possible to learn the paper type from the
publisher?
Bill
----- Original Message -----

From: "bnmj2000" <yahoo@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 15, 2004 8:42 AM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: GBC - creative laminator - good results


> Well, that is the thing. I had read all I could on the toner transfer
> method as was looking for suuitable paper. Magazines, catalogs and
> books where no longer magazines, catalogs and books. They had all
> simply become 'samples' of paper to try TT with.
>
> Initally I was looking for paper with a very smooth finish (very
> glossy magazines) as I thought that this was the "high clay content"
> paper that I was supposed to be using. Nice shiny smooth finish
> should make it easier to release the toner right?
>
> I acheived average results with this paper but if I choose a page
> that had dark graphics on it then I did had trouble with the paper
> blitering as it went through the fuser.
>
> Having also read the 'time magazine' success people had had. I went
> to the newsagent and had a look at what this paper was like. (as well
> as a lot of other magazines) I was suprised to see that the time
> magazine was not a very glossing finish. (Well not in Australia at
> least)
>
> This got me thinking that the super high gloss was not necassary and
> to try other less glossy magazines.  I have settled on using a
> magazine that has mildly glossy finish but is quite thin. (Certainly
> a lot thinner than the 80 g.s.m. copier paper)  I was amazed at the
> detail of the toner transfer. 10mil tracks looked quite OK and best
> of all the paper almost falls off when soaked for long enough.
>
> Now I am convinced that this is the 'high clay content' paper that I
> should be using. Having completed soaking the board removing the
> paper, as the board is drying if I rub the board/traces I get a white
> residue over the board. I am assuming this is the clay content of the
> paper. It doesn't seem to cause trouble as it washed of when the
> board is next wet.
>
>
> Now, describing the paper:
>
> It is quite a thin paper that is smooth to touch however is not
> overly glossy. I suppose a semi-gloss finish. My source is an
> Australian "Airborne" magazine which I doubt is available outside
> Australia. I imagine it is a fairly small circulation magazine and
> therefore the paper will be a budget paper. It is not rough like
> newsprint. Judging from the result of the tonner transfer I think is
> must have small cellulose fiber length as the paper fibres that
> remain on the toner bonded to the copper appear to be very small. Not
> like the 80 gsm copy paper which had huge fibers hanging out of the
> toner causing fuzzy edges and bridges between traces.
>
> This has become quite a long post and probably far in excess of what
> you were asking ST but I have been meaning to share these results
> with the group for a while to give a bit back.
>
> To summarise I know myself and a few other friends that have tried TT
> assumed that the most glossy paper was the way to go for better toner
> release. We were completely surprised when less glossy, thinner paper
> turned out better results. I beleive due to smaller fiber length and
> greater clay content just as a gut feel.
>
> Cheers,
> David
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Nice to hear it does like it should.
> > I really need to try magazine paper again some time with the
> fuser...
> > I have tried different kinds and it didn't work at all.
> > Some papers form bubbles in the fuser of the printer, they are no
> good.
> > Others don't release the toner at all.
> > how thick is the paper you use?
> > is it the more expensive glossy magazine paper (>=80gr/m^2)
> > or is it the very thin paper (much thinner than office paper)?
> >
> > thanks
> >
> > ST
> >
> > > Cheers,
> > > David
> > >
>
>
>
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>

Hello Stefan,

  Sunday, February 15, 2004, 12:06:42 AM, you wrote:

ST> Hi David,

ST> not long enough a post i would say ;-).

ST> It helps a lot, now i have a idea what to look out for.
ST> i was also seeking for the very glossy smooth paper.

ST> I will try more things like you describe it.
ST> The photopaper i have is not bad, but if i can get it
ST> for free too ;-)...

ST> I know it is very hard to let me know how your paper is,
ST> this is easiest done by feeling.
ST> Not even a photo is any great help.
ST> You have done a good job of describing it...

ST> I will collect some paper and try next time.

ST> thanks

ST> ST

  According to the description of the paper quality, you should try the KUNSTDRUCK MATT paper. It has very filler content (clay and the other powdery material) and it can be found in printshops.

In my neighborhood I have a friend who owns a printshop, and I remember that somewhere during last year he was printing a 500+ pages book on the matt-kunstdruck and tghere was a lot of white 'dust' especially on the knife.

-- 
 Sincerely,
����``````````````````````````````````````````````````````����
ZAS ElMed                        | mailto:zasto@yubc.net
szr za proizvodnju i odrzavanje  | http://www.zas-elmed.co.yu
    medicinske i industrijske    | 
    elektronike i automatike     | Tel/Fax: (011) 344-0748
                                 | 
 Zoran A. Scepanovic             |     Mob: (063) 609-993
���,����������������������������������������,�������������,���

*********
"Programmers don't die! They just GOSUB without RETURN."
*********

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> ST> ST
>
>   According to the description of the paper quality, you should try the 
> KUNSTDRUCK MATT paper. It has very filler content (clay and the other 
> powdery material) and it can be found in printshops.
>
> In my neighborhood I have a friend who owns a printshop, and I remember 
> that somewhere during last year he was printing a 500+ pages book on the 
> matt-kunstdruck and tghere was a lot of white 'dust' especially on the 
> knife.
>

I have no idea where to get this paper.
I will try to google it.
I assume this is sold in huge sizes for printshops?
or can i get it in office-size?

thanks

ST

where are you located?

Hello Stefan,

  Sunday, February 15, 2004, 4:55:08 PM, yuo wrote:



ST> I have no idea where to get this paper.
ST> I will try to google it.
ST> I assume this is sold in huge sizes for printshops?
ST> or can i get it in office-size?

ST> thanks

ST> ST

ST> where are you located?

  I don't think that you will find at the office supplies store. You have to find a print shop to obtain some (ask for the paper to be cut to the correct size - I recommend A4 or even A5). It is fabricated in many weights (I guess from 80 g/sqm upwards).

I'm in Belgrade, Serbia and Montenegro, and all my singlesided boards up to 200x300mm I'm producing myself using presensitized boards and my homemade exposing unit consisting of two Philips 20W UV lamps.

-- 
 Sincerely,
����``````````````````````````````````````````````````````����
ZAS ElMed                        | mailto:zasto@...
szr za proizvodnju i odrzavanje  | http://www.zas-elmed.co.yu
    medicinske i industrijske    | 
    elektronike i automatike     | Tel/Fax: (011) 344-0748
                                 | 
 Zoran A. Scepanovic             |     Mob: (063) 609-993
���,����������������������������������������,�������������,���

*********
"Good judgment comes from experience, experience comes from bad judgment"
*********

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I use this procedure when doing TT transfers and it works perfect 
just about every time:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs/message/4074

The one step I do, that most don't, is after a few passes through 
the laminator, I lay the board on a iron for about 30 secs to heat 
it up then run it through the laminator a few more times.  I've 
tried 6 different magazines at this point and ensured they were not 
published by the same organization and they all gave me good results.

R.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Zoran A. Scepanovic" 
<zasto@y...> wrote:
> Hello Stefan,
> 
>   Sunday, February 15, 2004, 4:55:08 PM, yuo wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> ST> I have no idea where to get this paper.
> ST> I will try to google it.
> ST> I assume this is sold in huge sizes for printshops?
> ST> or can i get it in office-size?
> 
> ST> thanks
> 
> ST> ST
> 
> ST> where are you located?
> 
>   I don't think that you will find at the office supplies store. 
You have to find a print shop to obtain some (ask for the paper to 
be cut to the correct size - I recommend A4 or even A5). It is 
fabricated in many weights (I guess from 80 g/sqm upwards).
> 
> I'm in Belgrade, Serbia and Montenegro, and all my singlesided 
boards up to 200x300mm I'm producing myself using presensitized 
boards and my homemade exposing unit consisting of two Philips 20W 
UV lamps.
> 
> -- 
>  Sincerely,
> ø¤º°``````````````````````````````````````````````````````°º¤ø
> ZAS ElMed                        | mailto:zasto@y...
> szr za proizvodnju i odrzavanje  | http://www.zas-elmed.co.yu
>     medicinske i industrijske    | 
>     elektronike i automatike     | Tel/Fax: (011) 344-0748
>                                  | 
>  Zoran A. Scepanovic             |     Mob: (063) 609-993
> º¤ø,¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸,¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸,ø¤º
> 
> *********
> "Good judgment comes from experience, experience comes from bad 
judgment"

> *********
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]