Homebrew PCBs

>Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 13:57:41 -0400
>To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
>From: steve gunsel <gunsel@...>
>Subject: IPA and acetone
>
>ST,
>
>Volatility (speed of evaporation) has a lot to do with it. Volatility and 
>solvency are not the same. Acetone, however, is a potent solvent for many 
>substances and also happens to be highly volatile. If you dissolve 
>"anything" in the acetone, and allow the acetone to evaporate, the 
>"anything" will be left behind.  And acetone evaporates very quickly - it 
>starts evaporating as soon as it is applied.   Nothing on a board is 
>likely to evaporate faster or it would not be there in the first 
>place.  IPA evaporates more slowly so you have a better chance of removing 
>the IPA with the dissolved residue.
>
>Help any?
>
>Steve Gunsel
>Medina, OH
>
>>As for the "IPA leaves residue",
>>it sounds right, but strangely i get holes in the transfer with acetone
>>while it is perfect with IPA.
>>I must try again with 100% same procedure.
>>
>>ST


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Steve,

It is a nice addition to the discussion. I personally don't need to 
use IPA anymore. What I need to use is acetone to dissolve the melted 
toner. I noticed that it helps if I leave the toner soaked in acetone 
and then rub it off, otherwise it is very hard to remove it just by 
rubbing it with paper towel. I am afraid that acetone is here to stay 
for the removal of hardened toner because any stronger chemical like 
Xylene is even worse to be around. I wonder what does ultrasonic 
cleaner do the hardened toner?

Mike



--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, steve gunsel <gunsel@v...> 
wrote:
> 
> >Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 13:57:41 -0400
> >To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> >From: steve gunsel <gunsel@v...>
> >Subject: IPA and acetone
> >
> >ST,
> >
> >Volatility (speed of evaporation) has a lot to do with it. 
Volatility and 
> >solvency are not the same. Acetone, however, is a potent solvent 
for many 
> >substances and also happens to be highly volatile. If you dissolve 
> >"anything" in the acetone, and allow the acetone to evaporate, the 
> >"anything" will be left behind.  And acetone evaporates very 
quickly - it 
> >starts evaporating as soon as it is applied.   Nothing on a board 
is 
> >likely to evaporate faster or it would not be there in the first 
> >place.  IPA evaporates more slowly so you have a better chance of 
removing 
> >the IPA with the dissolved residue.
> >
> >Help any?
> >
> >Steve Gunsel
> >Medina, OH
> >
> >>As for the "IPA leaves residue",
> >>it sounds right, but strangely i get holes in the transfer with 
acetone

> >>while it is perfect with IPA.
> >>I must try again with 100% same procedure.
> >>
> >>ST
> 
> 
>   ----------
> 
> 
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On Fri, 30 Jul 2004 19:05:42 -0000, mikezcnc <eemikez@...> wrote:

> Steve,
>
> It is a nice addition to the discussion. I personally don't need to
> use IPA anymore. What I need to use is acetone to dissolve the melted
> toner. I noticed that it helps if I leave the toner soaked in acetone
> and then rub it off, otherwise it is very hard to remove it just by
> rubbing it with paper towel. I am afraid that acetone is here to stay
> for the removal of hardened toner because any stronger chemical like
> Xylene is even worse to be around. I wonder what does ultrasonic
> cleaner do the hardened toner?
>
> Mike
>

Mike, i have something you might like:
Use another board and scrape the toner off witht the edge.
I do it all the time and it works very well, no damage even to the 
thinnest trace.

I mentioned the ultrasonic cleaner a while ago, and asked for someone
having one to try and see if the toner is affected. My idea was to use
the micro-cavitation action to speed up the etching itself. For this
it should of course not attack the toner.
I'd REALLY like to hear of someone placing a board with toner in the 
ultrasonic
cleaner.

ST

(P.S. xylene/tulene laquer thinner works very well, without attaching the 
eopxy,
but it is very nasty indeed)

----- Original Message ----- 

From: "mikezcnc" <eemikez@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, July 30, 2004 8:05 PM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Fwd: IPA and acetone


> Steve,
>
> It is a nice addition to the discussion. I personally don't need to
> use IPA anymore. What I need to use is acetone to dissolve the melted
> toner. I noticed that it helps if I leave the toner soaked in acetone
> and then rub it off, otherwise it is very hard to remove it just by
> rubbing it with paper towel. I am afraid that acetone is here to stay
> for the removal of hardened toner because any stronger chemical like
> Xylene is even worse to be around. I wonder what does ultrasonic
> cleaner do the hardened toner?

Many years ago, when I worked for Rank-Xerox UK, I was responsible for the
installation of an ultrasonic bath with a very nasty compound for removing
baked on toner from sub-assemblies when refurbishing them. It worked very
well, but you wouldn't want that stuff in the house. I got sprayed all over
with it once when I was testing a pump for emptying the tank. 8-(

Leon
--
Leon Heller, G1HSM
http://www.geocities.com/leon_heller

Stefan, thanks for the suggestion. Do you soak with acetone and then 
rub with hte edge of PCB? Or just start with the edge of PCB? Is 
there a need for aceton in the end? I hate it equally as you do.

I may have read about that ultrasonic cleaning from you then.  Mike

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Stefan Trethan 
<stefan_trethan@g...> wrote:
> On Fri, 30 Jul 2004 19:05:42 -0000, mikezcnc <eemikez@c...> wrote:
> 
> > Steve,
> >
> > It is a nice addition to the discussion. I personally don't need 
to
> > use IPA anymore. What I need to use is acetone to dissolve the 
melted
> > toner. I noticed that it helps if I leave the toner soaked in 
acetone
> > and then rub it off, otherwise it is very hard to remove it just 
by
> > rubbing it with paper towel. I am afraid that acetone is here to 
stay
> > for the removal of hardened toner because any stronger chemical 
like
> > Xylene is even worse to be around. I wonder what does ultrasonic
> > cleaner do the hardened toner?
> >
> > Mike
> >
> 
> Mike, i have something you might like:
> Use another board and scrape the toner off witht the edge.
> I do it all the time and it works very well, no damage even to the 
> thinnest trace.
> 
> I mentioned the ultrasonic cleaner a while ago, and asked for 
someone
> having one to try and see if the toner is affected. My idea was to 
use
> the micro-cavitation action to speed up the etching itself. For this
> it should of course not attack the toner.
> I'd REALLY like to hear of someone placing a board with toner in 
the 
> ultrasonic
> cleaner.
> 
> ST
> 
> (P.S. xylene/tulene laquer thinner works very well, without 
attaching the 
> eopxy,
> but it is very nasty indeed)

On Fri, 30 Jul 2004 19:39:48 -0000, mikezcnc <eemikez@...> wrote:

> Stefan, thanks for the suggestion. Do you soak with acetone and then
> rub with hte edge of PCB? Or just start with the edge of PCB? Is
> there a need for aceton in the end? I hate it equally as you do.
>
> I may have read about that ultrasonic cleaning from you then.  Mike
>

No i use no solvent at all (maybe afterwards a wipe with IPA (you better 
substitute
it with  water and soap or something for the obvious reasons ;-) ).
It is only to get the small scratched-off debris off the board.

It might be the old HP laser jet III toner is especially brittle and thus 
it works so well.
the toner just flakes off when scraping with the edge of teh PCB.
(Kind of like scraping wall paint or hardened concrete/mortar off tools if 
you
ever did that..)

When using acetone "soaking" isn't necessary at all, just wet a rag and 
wipe.
But i don't do that any more 'cause the scraping is much easier.
The board usually is slightly wet when i scrape (from soaking and peeling) 
but
it also works with dry board.

ST

Toner is basically powdered hot glue and carbon black.  I wonder if
chilling or freezing the board would make the toner brittle enough to be
even easier to scrape off?  Unfortunately I'm not in a situation to try
it out at the moment!

Regards/Roger, in Bangkok  

-----Original Message-----
...

Mike, i have something you might like:
Use another board and scrape the toner off witht the edge.
I do it all the time and it works very well, no damage even to the 
thinnest trace.

...


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Roger, it is avery good suggestion- I will try it out.

Do you know how to make plated holes at home?

Mike

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Roger, in Bangkok" 
<mercies@c...> wrote:
> Toner is basically powdered hot glue and carbon black.  I wonder if
> chilling or freezing the board would make the toner brittle enough 
to be
> even easier to scrape off?  Unfortunately I'm not in a situation to 
try
> it out at the moment!
> 
> Regards/Roger, in Bangkok  
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> ...
> 
> Mike, i have something you might like:
> Use another board and scrape the toner off witht the edge.
> I do it all the time and it works very well, no damage even to the 
> thinnest trace.
> 
> ...
> 
> 
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Has anyone tried electrocleaning PCB in say 5% sodium hydroxide, sodium 
carbonate or caustic dishwashing detergent ? Its basically two steel 
sheets on each side of the PCB. The PCB becomes -ve and steel is +ve. I 
haven't tried it to strip toner, but I've seen this method remove old 
paint. The disadvantage is you need setup a tank and power supply. 
Current density should be at least 20 mA/cm^2

Adam


mikezcnc wrote:

> Roger, it is avery good suggestion- I will try it out.
> 
> Do you know how to make plated holes at home?
> 
> Mike
> 
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Roger, in Bangkok" 
> <mercies@c...> wrote:
> 
>>Toner is basically powdered hot glue and carbon black.  I wonder if
>>chilling or freezing the board would make the toner brittle enough 
> 
> to be
>

--- Adam Seychell <a_seychell@...> wrote:

> Has anyone tried electrocleaning PCB in say 5%
> sodium hydroxide, sodium carbonate or caustic
dishwashing detergent ?

No,I haven't.  But, I know that Dennis Hayes, during
the very early days of Hayes Microsystem's was
literally making modems on his dinning room table. He
used to tin his boards, populate them with plastic
dips and then run them through the dishwashing machine
(On cold with NO heated dry...). Then he took them out
and dryed them. Following this he put the capacitors
on and any other parts that h20 could get into. He
then sprayed them with a conformal coating. 

FWIW, he told me this himself about 15 years ago, so I
assume that it is true.

Also, I know that companies and people involved in
print head and hammer bank repair use sonic cleaning
baths on a regular basis to clean grease and ink off
of pcb's and metal parts.

Best regards


Marvin Dickens



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What a small world... I worked once for a gentleman who was a boss of 
Dennis before he became famous. I remember that it was a kitchen 
table with all relatives helping out and Dennis was told that he 
would not sell more than a few dozens of modems because who in the 
right mind would want to connect computers to each other! Dennis was 
at the time a technician. Great success overnight, cash paid 
building, lawsuit for an &AT key string, divorce and out. I guess his 
patent has expired.

That electrochemical method of cleaning makes a mlot of sense to me: 
I have seen it at the galavnizing (plating) shop many moons ago. The 
guy dunk my part into the tank (part was connected to the circuit) 
for cleaning and seconds later he was plating. I was always puzzled 
what that process was and meant to ask that question yesterday. Great 
that you commented on it. That process of cleaning does work. Now, I 
am not sure what hte electrolyte was, but chances are pretty high 
this is it. Glad you mentioned it, Adam.

--- mikezcnc <eemikez@...> wrote:

> What a small world...  

Do you live here in Atlanta?

Regards

Marvin

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Used to Marvin, M'retta, Norcross, NDC...  Mike

mi now

Gene Jones??

HI Mike--

I remember seeing on the internet several years ago an article that was
part of a series.  It was pretty detailed, well illustrated and included
suppliers information.  As best I recall, it was essentially sucking
conductive polymer inks through the holes.  I don't believe they were
then plated, but simply soldered if they had component leds through
them.  I've looked high and low but can't find a copy anymore.  It may
have been a part of a series of "fabulous money making machines" maybe a
Circuit Cellar precursor.  I hope that's a successful starting point for
someone!

Regards/Roger, in Bangkok

-----Original Message-----
...

Do you know how to make plated holes at home?


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mpdickens wrote:
> --- Adam Seychell <a_seychell@...> wrote:
> 
> 
>>Has anyone tried electrocleaning PCB in say 5%
>>sodium hydroxide, sodium carbonate or caustic
> 
> dishwashing detergent ?
> 
> No,I haven't.  But, I know that Dennis Hayes, during
> the very early days of Hayes Microsystem's was
> literally making modems on his dinning room table. He
> used to tin his boards, populate them with plastic
> dips and then run them through the dishwashing machine
> (On cold with NO heated dry...). Then he took them out
> and dryed them....

I can't see any problem using a dishwasher. I'm sure Dennis wasn't the 
first to use a dishwasher. Marvin , how is your spray machine coming 
along ? I've had lots of other stuff to do lately so mine is still 
sitting there half finished :(

Adam