Homebrew PCBs

Why isn't all this software done the other way 'round?
I really just want to define how much space I want between traces. 
I want all the rest to be trace.
Less etchant, no erosion issues, easier for TT  etc....
crazy?

PCB layout programs are really intended for professional use.  When designing a really high speed board, the big concerns are cross talk, parasitic capacitance and induction, signal propagation speed, and retention of the signal waveform.  All these things are affected more by the spacing of the traces rather than their size.  

For my hobby I don't have to worry about all that stuff.  I have a copy of Electronics Workbench and I tried Eagle and a couple others.  I finally concluded that for my purposes it was easier to just use a plain old CAD system that allows me to specify the width of the lines and hand route everything.  It's worked just fine so far.

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: daveismissing 
  To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Friday, October 08, 2004 1:33 PM
  Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] programmers pay attention



  Why isn't all this software done the other way 'round?
  I really just want to define how much space I want between traces. 
  I want all the rest to be trace.
  Less etchant, no erosion issues, easier for TT  etc....
  crazy?
      





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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

With the Eagle program you can FILL the ground plane around the
traces. Hans told us how many messages back. I used this method on my
Piker board. All ground points are the same large trace. Very little
etching required. Done correctly there are no ground loops. 



--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "daveismissing"
<shootme007@h...> wrote:

> 
> Why isn't all this software done the other way 'round?
> I really just want to define how much space I want between traces. 
> I want all the rest to be trace.
> Less etchant, no erosion issues, easier for TT  etc....
> crazy?

yup yup yup, eagle makes it pretty easy - I do it all the time.

I just create a polygon that surrounds my entire board, name it gnd
(or what ever you use for ground) and select an isolate distance of 16
or 24 mils.  Do one for the top and bottom and you now have defined a
"minimum etch" PCB.  You could probably get away with less isolation
but I kind of like 24.

Note that you will get some areas that aren't pour'd because there is
no way to connect to ground.  I would not recommend leaving large
areas unconnected due to capacitive coupling.

Note also that TT sometimes doesn't handle large areas of copper very
well.  Pinholing or worse isn't uncommon at all.  Not really a problem
other than appearance 

Phil

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "crankorgan" <john@k...> wrote:

> 
>    With the Eagle program you can FILL the ground plane around the
> traces. Hans told us how many messages back. I used this method on my
> Piker board. All ground points are the same large trace. Very little
> etching required. Done correctly there are no ground loops. 
> 
> 
> 
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "daveismissing"
> <shootme007@h...> wrote:
> > 
> > Why isn't all this software done the other way 'round?
> > I really just want to define how much space I want between traces. 
> > I want all the rest to be trace.
> > Less etchant, no erosion issues, easier for TT  etc....
> > crazy?

Thanks John
I am aware of the "fill" but as I am an eagle rookie i have not found 
the way to display fill on the screen.
I tend to do a lot of rectangles - ends up looking like an SMD board
I figure for the slow speed stuff I do tieing rectangles to either 
rail is ok.

I touch up and enhance large areas with shellac(sic?) mixed a little 
thicker.  

D
--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "crankorgan" <john@k...> wrote:
> 
>    With the Eagle program you can FILL the ground plane around the
> traces. Hans told us how many messages back. I used this method on 
my
> Piker board. All ground points are the same large trace. Very little
> etching required. Done correctly there are no ground loops. 
> 
> 
> 
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "daveismissing"
> <shootme007@h...> wrote:
> > 
> > Why isn't all this software done the other way 'round?
> > I really just want to define how much space I want between 
traces. 

> > I want all the rest to be trace.
> > Less etchant, no erosion issues, easier for TT  etc....
> > crazy?

Remember my Round to Square.


>Why isn't all this software done the other way 'round?
>I really just want to define how much space I want between traces.
>I want all the rest to be trace.
>Less etchant, no erosion issues, easier for TT  etc....
>crazy?

Not, for sure.
Cristian

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

yeah, obscure is Eagle's middle name - press the ratsnest button
(obvious, huh?).  You do have to make an actual connection to the
polygon for it to work.  I just route a trace into the middle of it
and that's good enough.  There is probably a good reason for it but
its not the most user friendly thing way.

Phil

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "daveismissing"
<shootme007@h...> wrote:

> 
> Thanks John
> I am aware of the "fill" but as I am an eagle rookie i have not found 
> the way to display fill on the screen.
> I tend to do a lot of rectangles - ends up looking like an SMD board
> I figure for the slow speed stuff I do tieing rectangles to either 
> rail is ok.
> 
> I touch up and enhance large areas with shellac(sic?) mixed a little 
> thicker.  
> 
> D
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "crankorgan" <john@k...> wrote:
> > 
> >    With the Eagle program you can FILL the ground plane around the
> > traces. Hans told us how many messages back. I used this method on 
> my
> > Piker board. All ground points are the same large trace. Very little
> > etching required. Done correctly there are no ground loops. 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "daveismissing"
> > <shootme007@h...> wrote:
> > > 
> > > Why isn't all this software done the other way 'round?
> > > I really just want to define how much space I want between 
> traces. 
> > > I want all the rest to be trace.
> > > Less etchant, no erosion issues, easier for TT  etc....
> > > crazy?

Hans explains it to me starting at message 902  Just enter 902 in
the message box. 



--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "daveismissing"
<shootme007@h...> wrote:

> 
> Thanks John
> I am aware of the "fill" but as I am an eagle rookie i have not found 
> the way to display fill on the screen.
> I tend to do a lot of rectangles - ends up looking like an SMD board
> I figure for the slow speed stuff I do tieing rectangles to either 
> rail is ok.
> 
> I touch up and enhance large areas with shellac(sic?) mixed a little 
> thicker.  
> 
> D
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "crankorgan" <john@k...> wrote:
> > 
> >    With the Eagle program you can FILL the ground plane around the
> > traces. Hans told us how many messages back. I used this method on 
> my
> > Piker board. All ground points are the same large trace. Very little
> > etching required. Done correctly there are no ground loops. 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "daveismissing"
> > <shootme007@h...> wrote:
> > > 
> > > Why isn't all this software done the other way 'round?
> > > I really just want to define how much space I want between 
> traces. 
> > > I want all the rest to be trace.
> > > Less etchant, no erosion issues, easier for TT  etc....
> > > crazy?

By the way, I was at a big box bookstore today and saw a book by Al
Williams "Making Printed Circuit Boards".  Half the book is an Eagle
tutorial.  From my 5 minute look it seemed pretty decent and I'd
recommend it to anyone starting out with Eagle.  My biggest quibble is
that he spends a fair mumber of pages pushing the autorouter and none
(that I could see) on manual routing.

Phil

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "crankorgan" <john@k...> wrote:

> 
>     Hans explains it to me starting at message 902  Just enter 902 in
> the message box. 
> 
> 
> 
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "daveismissing"
> <shootme007@h...> wrote:
> > 
> > Thanks John
> > I am aware of the "fill" but as I am an eagle rookie i have not found 
> > the way to display fill on the screen.
> > I tend to do a lot of rectangles - ends up looking like an SMD board
> > I figure for the slow speed stuff I do tieing rectangles to either 
> > rail is ok.
> > 
> > I touch up and enhance large areas with shellac(sic?) mixed a little 
> > thicker.  
> > 
> > D
> > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "crankorgan" <john@k...> wrote:
> > > 
> > >    With the Eagle program you can FILL the ground plane around the
> > > traces. Hans told us how many messages back. I used this method on 
> > my
> > > Piker board. All ground points are the same large trace. Very little
> > > etching required. Done correctly there are no ground loops. 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "daveismissing"
> > > <shootme007@h...> wrote:
> > > > 
> > > > Why isn't all this software done the other way 'round?
> > > > I really just want to define how much space I want between 
> > traces. 
> > > > I want all the rest to be trace.
> > > > Less etchant, no erosion issues, easier for TT  etc....
> > > > crazy?

Phil,
     There are tons of circuits out there where the component and
trace layout is not important. Chopper controllers and audio amps are
a different story. People who write books tend to get the job done
quick and go for the money. Don Lancaster's  TTL Cookbook was one of
the first books to knock my socks off. That book is stuffed with tons
of easy to understand info. Others write books based on one project
and in most cases it lacks refinement. I have gotten two articles
published and I got paid for them. What I sent and what was published
was different than my vision.   
     I protoboard my circuits. Then I perfboard them to refine my
layout. Then I Eagle or CAD the traces.  

                                                 John


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Phil" <phil1960us@y...> wrote:
> 
> By the way, I was at a big box bookstore today and saw a book by Al
> Williams "Making Printed Circuit Boards".  Half the book is an Eagle
> tutorial.  From my 5 minute look it seemed pretty decent and I'd
> recommend it to anyone starting out with Eagle.  My biggest quibble is
> that he spends a fair mumber of pages pushing the autorouter and none
> (that I could see) on manual routing.
> 
> Phil
> 
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "crankorgan" <john@k...> wrote:
> > 
> >     Hans explains it to me starting at message 902  Just enter 902 in
> > the message box. 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "daveismissing"
> > <shootme007@h...> wrote:
> > > 
> > > Thanks John
> > > I am aware of the "fill" but as I am an eagle rookie i have not
found 
> > > the way to display fill on the screen.
> > > I tend to do a lot of rectangles - ends up looking like an SMD board
> > > I figure for the slow speed stuff I do tieing rectangles to either 
> > > rail is ok.
> > > 
> > > I touch up and enhance large areas with shellac(sic?) mixed a
little 
> > > thicker.  
> > > 
> > > D
> > > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "crankorgan" <john@k...>
wrote:
> > > > 
> > > >    With the Eagle program you can FILL the ground plane around the
> > > > traces. Hans told us how many messages back. I used this
method on 
> > > my
> > > > Piker board. All ground points are the same large trace. Very
little

> > > > etching required. Done correctly there are no ground loops. 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "daveismissing"
> > > > <shootme007@h...> wrote:
> > > > > 
> > > > > Why isn't all this software done the other way 'round?
> > > > > I really just want to define how much space I want between 
> > > traces. 
> > > > > I want all the rest to be trace.
> > > > > Less etchant, no erosion issues, easier for TT  etc....
> > > > > crazy?

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Phil" <phil1960us@y...> wrote:
> 
> By the way, I was at a big box bookstore today and saw a book by Al
> Williams "Making Printed Circuit Boards".  Half the book is an Eagle
> tutorial.  From my 5 minute look it seemed pretty decent and I'd
> recommend it to anyone starting out with Eagle.  My biggest quibble 
is
> that he spends a fair mumber of pages pushing the autorouter and 
none
> (that I could see) on manual routing.
> 
> Phil

If you read the book, then send him a note of what you want for the 
second edition.

He's a pretty nice guy and always likes to hear from his readers.

His website is geared to the PIC and STAMP and AVR and is worth 
surfing around in.  Pretty big site.


http://www.al-williams.com/index.htm

Dave

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "crankorgan" <john@k...> wrote:
> 
> Phil,
>      There are tons of circuits out there where the component and
> trace layout is not important. 

So, one should NOT discuss manual routing at all in a book on PCB
design?  That doesn't make sense to me.  Especially when the Eagle
autorouter will stall out pretty easily with out significant tweaking
of the parameters.   

My point wasn't that layout and routing are critical.  It was that in
a book that teaches PCB building, manual routing should have a
reasonably good treatment.  I certainly don't see the controversy in
that.  He does talk about tweaking layout to get the autorouter to
work, btw.  

...and in case people think I'm trashing the book, I did recommend it.

Phil

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Dave Mucha" <dave_mucha@y...>
wrote:

> If you read the book, then send him a note of what you want for the 
> second edition.
> 
> He's a pretty nice guy and always likes to hear from his readers.
> 
> His website is geared to the PIC and STAMP and AVR and is worth 
> surfing around in.  Pretty big site.
> 
> 
> http://www.al-williams.com/index.htm

I love the menu! Very clever.

So you meant "Build Your Own Printed Circuit Board" by Al Williams,
not "Making Printed Circuit Boards" by Jan Axelson.

Dang! I just had my wife buy me "Lying Liars and the Liars Who Tell
Them" for my birthday, wish I'd gotten this book instead.

I have a hard time with online documentation and most documentation
supplied by the makers of a program I find difficult to use. So I'm
excited about finding a book with an Eagle tutorial.

Steve

Phil,
     What I ment was he may work on circuits that don't require a
certain type component layout. I have trouble shot micro circuits
where traces ran all over the board in order to get to their
destination. By using manual routing and a few jumpers, alot of
circuits can be done with a single sided board. Unless you know Eagle
very well it will produce a double sided board. Some people "Get to
the Getten" (American Chopper) instead of thinking things out like you
or me. I try for a single sided board with no ground loops. Explaining 
manual routing to people who don't understand how circuits work would
require more work. Most people just enter in the schematic and accept
the board they get. I have seen tons of circuits on the Internet. Most
are missing the standard .1uf DeGlitching caps.    

                                                  John


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Phil" <phil1960us@y...> wrote:

> 
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "crankorgan" <john@k...> wrote:
> > 
> > Phil,
> >      There are tons of circuits out there where the component and
> > trace layout is not important. 
> 
> So, one should NOT discuss manual routing at all in a book on PCB
> design?  That doesn't make sense to me.  Especially when the Eagle
> autorouter will stall out pretty easily with out significant tweaking
> of the parameters.   
> 
> My point wasn't that layout and routing are critical.  It was that in
> a book that teaches PCB building, manual routing should have a
> reasonably good treatment.  I certainly don't see the controversy in
> that.  He does talk about tweaking layout to get the autorouter to
> work, btw.  
> 
> ...and in case people think I'm trashing the book, I did recommend it.
> 
> Phil

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Steve" <alienrelics@y...> wrote:
> 
... 
> So you meant "Build Your Own Printed Circuit Board" by Al Williams,
> not "Making Printed Circuit Boards" by Jan Axelson.
> 

yup, my bad.  "Build you own..."  is the correct title.  My doctor
said something about alzheimers but I forget...

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "crankorgan" <john@k...> wrote:
> 
> Phil,
>      What I ment was he may work on circuits that don't require a
> certain type component layout. I have trouble shot micro circuits
> where traces ran all over the board in order to get to their
> destination. By using manual routing and a few jumpers, alot of
> circuits can be done with a single sided board. Unless you know Eagle
> very well it will produce a double sided board. Some people "Get to
> the Getten" (American Chopper) instead of thinking things out like you
> or me. I try for a single sided board with no ground loops. Explaining 
> manual routing to people who don't understand how circuits work would
> require more work. Most people just enter in the schematic and accept
> the board they get. I have seen tons of circuits on the Internet. Most
> are missing the standard .1uf DeGlitching caps.    
> 
>                                                   John

OK.  It is unfortunate that people skimp on bypass caps but that seems
independent to routing.  I suspect an autorouted board can have just
as many problems as a hand routed one.  Maybe more so since there is
no smarts about keeping classes of traces seperated.

I'm not sure at all that describing manual routing is that hard. 
Williams does talk about how to get eagle to route single sided boards
(enter NA for top side routing direction in the autorouter dialog). 
He also talks about giving a very high cost to top side routing to get
just a few top-side traces and using jumpers instead of traces -
something that I have done on occasion before I found out how easy
double sided boards are to make.