Homebrew PCBs

I don't mind someone from a PCB fab house posting on the list. Or
posting a link to their website in the Links page. That's a good thing.

What bothers me is when someone pretends to have no connection with a
business except as a customer, when in fact it is their business.

Someone just joined and tried to post a cheery "I found my new
supplier! Its cheap fast and high quality! www.efabpcb.com" message as
his first to the list. Following my instincts, I followed the link and
found that "watrach@..." aka "jwjrpcb" had posted his own link. One
page identifies their Sales Manager as "Jim Watrach".

Then I went to the Links page and found this added by the same jwjrpcb:

www.efabpcb.com
Very high quality, cheap, and fast, I have used them many times for
protos, and now using them on production stuff..Its pretty good!
http://www.efabpcb.com

I don't know about you, but having their Sales Manager lie does not
inspire confidence in their service.

I've deleted the link and I'm leaving jwjrpcb moderated for now. We'll
see what he has to say for himself.

Steve Greenfield, listowner

On Friday 17 December 2004 02:41 pm, Steve wrote:
> I don't mind someone from a PCB fab house posting on the list. Or
> posting a link to their website in the Links page. That's a good thing.
>
> What bothers me is when someone pretends to have no connection with a
> business except as a customer, when in fact it is their business.
>
> Someone just joined and tried to post a cheery "I found my new
> supplier! Its cheap fast and high quality! www.efabpcb.com" message as
> his first to the list. Following my instincts, I followed the link and
> found that "watrach@..." aka "jwjrpcb" had posted his own link. One
> page identifies their Sales Manager as "Jim Watrach".
>
> Then I went to the Links page and found this added by the same jwjrpcb:
>
> www.efabpcb.com
> Very high quality, cheap, and fast, I have used them many times for
> protos, and now using them on production stuff..Its pretty good!
> http://www.efabpcb.com
>
> I don't know about you, but having their Sales Manager lie does not
> inspire confidence in their service.
>
> I've deleted the link and I'm leaving jwjrpcb moderated for now. We'll
> see what he has to say for himself.
>
> Steve Greenfield, listowner

What's really sad is that these people seem to act like they think they can 
get away with that sort of thing.  Like we're all stupid,  or ignorant,  or 
something...

The technology that we're using here has empowered consumers way beyond what 
most of these guys can even dream of,  but I guess it's gonna take a while 
for them to "get it".

On Fri, 17 Dec 2004 14:50:31 -0500, Roy J. Tellason  
<rtellason@...> wrote:

>
> What's really sad is that these people seem to act like they think they  
> can
> get away with that sort of thing.  Like we're all stupid,  or ignorant,   
> or
> something...
> The technology that we're using here has empowered consumers way beyond  
> what
> most of these guys can even dream of,  but I guess it's gonna take a  
> while
> for them to "get it".


They will not even care about it, just spam the next one and lie to them.
You must remember the technology has also empowered them to annoy the hell  
out of us much more
efficiently. Believe me, they _have_ got it.
Thanks Steve for catching that one, i'm sure none of us does want to do  
business with liars.


On another topic, today i did a quick try if it is possible to make a  
sturdy paper-cutter like
PCB shear out of simple angle-iron. A quick experiment worked surprisingly  
well. Tools needed only angle
grinder and power drill. I will write a detailed report when i have  
completed it, then i will also start a proper thread.

ST

Steve,
      I caught the owner Paul G. of the CNCZONE doing the same thing
over at the RC conference. Posting messages in first person is ok if
not overdone. But talking as though you are a happy user is something
else.

                                        John


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Steve" <alienrelics@y...> wrote:

> 
> I don't mind someone from a PCB fab house posting on the list. Or
> posting a link to their website in the Links page. That's a good thing.
> 
> What bothers me is when someone pretends to have no connection with a
> business except as a customer, when in fact it is their business.
> 
> Someone just joined and tried to post a cheery "I found my new
> supplier! Its cheap fast and high quality! www.efabpcb.com" message as
> his first to the list. Following my instincts, I followed the link and
> found that "watrach@" aka "jwjrpcb" had posted his own link. One
> page identifies their Sales Manager as "Jim Watrach".
> 
> Then I went to the Links page and found this added by the same jwjrpcb:
> 
> www.efabpcb.com
> Very high quality, cheap, and fast, I have used them many times for
> protos, and now using them on production stuff..Its pretty good!
> http://www.efabpcb.com
> 
> I don't know about you, but having their Sales Manager lie does not
> inspire confidence in their service.
> 
> I've deleted the link and I'm leaving jwjrpcb moderated for now. We'll
> see what he has to say for himself.
> 
> Steve Greenfield, listowner

On Friday 17 December 2004 03:11 pm, Stefan Trethan wrote:
> On Fri, 17 Dec 2004 14:50:31 -0500, Roy J. Tellason
>
> <rtellason@...> wrote:
> > What's really sad is that these people seem to act like they think they
> > can get away with that sort of thing.  Like we're all stupid,  or
> > ignorant, or something...
> > The technology that we're using here has empowered consumers way beyond
> > what most of these guys can even dream of,  but I guess it's gonna take a
> > while for them to "get it".

> They will not even care about it, just spam the next one and lie to them.
> You must remember the technology has also empowered them to annoy the hell
> out of us much more efficiently. Believe me, they _have_ got it.

Not so.  There are a lot more of us than there are of them.  It doesn't take 
too much stupidity on their part to get on a list,  or several.  It's called 
"reputation".  I've been in business,  and it takes a certain amount of 
nontrivial effort to acquire one single customer,  and if you're *really* 
good and *really* lucky that customer will refer others to you (we tracked 
where people heard about us and a lot were referred by friends and 
acquaintances).  OTOH,  if somebody is unhappy with someone that they do 
business with,  they'll tell at least 20 other people,  and you'll never see 
them as customers.  A negative impact like that is much harder to overcome...

> Thanks Steve for catching that one, i'm sure none of us does want to do
> business with liars.

Yes,  it was a good catch.

> On another topic, today i did a quick try if it is possible to make a
> sturdy paper-cutter like PCB shear out of simple angle-iron. A quick
> experiment worked surprisingly well. Tools needed only angle
> grinder and power drill. I will write a detailed report when i have
> completed it, then i will also start a proper thread.

I will be looking forward to that -- I've been wondering about how to cut that 
stuff...

It certainly inspires my confidence.

I am extremely confident they would say anything to get your business and then again to duck your complaints.
WDSmith

  From: Steve 
  I don't know about you, but having their Sales Manager lie does not
  inspire confidence in their service.

  I've deleted the link and I'm leaving jwjrpcb moderated for now. We'll
  see what he has to say for himself.

  Steve Greenfield, listowner


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On Fri, 17 Dec 2004 16:00:41 -0500, Roy J. Tellason  
<rtellason@...> wrote:

>
> Not so.  There are a lot more of us than there are of them.

I'm not so sure. I surely get over 50% spam counting what the filter  
catches, so there are more
evil people than good people ;-)

> It doesn't take
> too much stupidity on their part to get on a list,  or several.  It's  
> called
> "reputation".  I've been in business,  and it takes a certain amount of
> nontrivial effort to acquire one single customer,  and if you're *really*
> good and *really* lucky that customer will refer others to you (we  
> tracked
> where people heard about us and a lot were referred by friends and
> acquaintances).  OTOH,  if somebody is unhappy with someone that they do
> business with,  they'll tell at least 20 other people,  and you'll never  
> see
> them as customers.  A negative impact like that is much harder to  
> overcome...

You are talking "good old honest business laws" there. That's not how  
things are run nowadays.
There are many millions of potential customers out there which they can  
reach with their lies. even if 20% know they are bad business it doesn't  
change much. When they have got some money and when the  
complaints/liabilities get too much they just close up that one shop (more  
likely sell it) and open up another one (which needn't even have to do  
something with PCBs).

Do you really think a company doing that sort of marketing (and honestly,  
which marketing isn't lies??) relies on a good reputation? They don't care  
if you tell 100 people, they will just sign up to a group with another  
1000.

ST

Hi Steve, 

I just want to make it clear who I am in relation to a superb 
supplier. My fatehr is the sales manager, and I am a green fresh out 
of college 25 year old who is in the design side of the business. 
Hence, the JwJRpcb. Thanks for the undue criticism without confiring 
with me first. 

Sorry if I mislead anyone.I do appreciate the advice and tricks I 
have picked up here, but i guess I am not going to be using the page 
anylonger, best wishes!
Jim Jr.


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Steve" <alienrelics@y...> 
wrote:
> 
> I don't mind someone from a PCB fab house posting on the list. Or
> posting a link to their website in the Links page. That's a good 
thing.
> 
> What bothers me is when someone pretends to have no connection with 
a
> business except as a customer, when in fact it is their business.
> 
> Someone just joined and tried to post a cheery "I found my new
> supplier! Its cheap fast and high quality! www.efabpcb.com" message 
as
> his first to the list. Following my instincts, I followed the link 
and
> found that "watrach@" aka "jwjrpcb" had posted his own link. One
> page identifies their Sales Manager as "Jim Watrach".
> 
> Then I went to the Links page and found this added by the same 
jwjrpcb:
> 
> www.efabpcb.com
> Very high quality, cheap, and fast, I have used them many times for
> protos, and now using them on production stuff..Its pretty good!
> http://www.efabpcb.com
> 
> I don't know about you, but having their Sales Manager lie does not
> inspire confidence in their service.
> 
> I've deleted the link and I'm leaving jwjrpcb moderated for now. 
We'll

> see what he has to say for himself.
> 
> Steve Greenfield, listowner

You joined at 10:58am today, posted (attempted) at 11:05am. So don't
try and make it sound like you are a long time lurker here.

You understand this still looks bad for you and your father's
business. You posted as if you were just a happy customer with no
other connection.

Steve

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "jwjrpcb" <watrach@s...> wrote:

> 
> 
> Hi Steve, 
> 
> I just want to make it clear who I am in relation to a superb 
> supplier. My fatehr is the sales manager, and I am a green fresh out 
> of college 25 year old who is in the design side of the business. 
> Hence, the JwJRpcb. Thanks for the undue criticism without confiring 
> with me first. 
> 
> Sorry if I mislead anyone.I do appreciate the advice and tricks I 
> have picked up here, but i guess I am not going to be using the page 
> anylonger, best wishes!
> Jim Jr.
> 
>

Thanks for the advice. I have checked out the postings 
regularly.Something that I can do without joining. I do find help and 
solice in the fact that I am not the only one with questions. I do 
have a pcb guide that helps designers with production questions, it 
is called "Printed Circuit Board Basics" and is very explanatory of 
the whole manufacturing side. I have no affiliation with sales of the 
book, other than it was a gift from my dad!!!Once again, sorry!!!!
Merry Christmas.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Steve" <alienrelics@y...> 
wrote:
> 
> You joined at 10:58am today, posted (attempted) at 11:05am. So don't
> try and make it sound like you are a long time lurker here.
> 
> You understand this still looks bad for you and your father's
> business. You posted as if you were just a happy customer with no
> other connection.
> 
> Steve
> 
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "jwjrpcb" <watrach@s...> 
wrote:
> > 
> > 
> > Hi Steve, 
> > 
> > I just want to make it clear who I am in relation to a superb 
> > supplier. My fatehr is the sales manager, and I am a green fresh 
out 
> > of college 25 year old who is in the design side of the business. 
> > Hence, the JwJRpcb. Thanks for the undue criticism without 
confiring 
> > with me first. 
> > 
> > Sorry if I mislead anyone.I do appreciate the advice and tricks I 
> > have picked up here, but i guess I am not going to be using the 
page 

> > anylonger, best wishes!
> > Jim Jr.
> > 
> >

On Dec 17, 2004, at 4:19 PM, jwjrpcb wrote:

>
>
>
> Hi Steve,
>
> I just want to make it clear who I am in relation to a superb
> supplier. My fatehr is the sales manager, and I am a green fresh out
> of college 25 year old who is in the design side of the business.
> Hence, the JwJRpcb. Thanks for the undue criticism without confiring
> with me first.
>

Your father is the sales manager, you see no need to disclose this 
fact, and your feelings are hurt because of "undue criticism"?
Good Grief.

Thanks to the list manager for catching this polecat before somebody 
took his "testimonial" at face value.

Jim Jr

The criticism wasn't undue. You made your father's business look bad by
posting as a shill. You'll learn about things like that once you get a
little less green :-)

Full disclosure is always your best bet. You shouldn't have posted the
spam-like link, and you shouldn't have posted a message like you did without
making it obvious who you are and what your relationship is.

Don't make it sound as though you were slighted. The resident list guy here
saved us all from some misleading marketing tactics. An apology would have
been a more appropriate and mature response.

I'm sure the enthusiasm is appreciated, but you should check with the
company officers or sales folks before marketing on their behalf.

Pete

_____________________________________________________
 Pete Brown - Gambrills, MD (Near Annapolis)
 Visit my personal site : http://www.irritatedVowel.com
 (wallpaper, western maryland ry, .net, photography, model rr)

________________________________________
From: Steve [mailto:alienrelics@...] 
Sent: Friday, December 17, 2004 4:30 PM
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: PCB house posting ads


You joined at 10:58am today, posted (attempted) at 11:05am. So don't
try and make it sound like you are a long time lurker here.

You understand this still looks bad for you and your father's
business. You posted as if you were just a happy customer with no
other connection.

Steve

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "jwjrpcb" <watrach@s...> wrote:

> 
> 
> Hi Steve, 
> 
> I just want to make it clear who I am in relation to a superb 
> supplier. My fatehr is the sales manager, and I am a green fresh out 
> of college 25 year old who is in the design side of the business. 
> Hence, the JwJRpcb. Thanks for the undue criticism without confiring 
> with me first. 
> 
> Sorry if I mislead anyone.I do appreciate the advice and tricks I 
> have picked up here, but i guess I am not going to be using the page 
> anylonger, best wishes!
> Jim Jr.

I said sorry!! 
 
But once again, sorry. If you ever need anything, I would be happy to help!

"Pete Brown (YahooGroups)" <YahooLists@...> wrote:
Jim Jr

The criticism wasn't undue. You made your father's business look bad by
posting as a shill. You'll learn about things like that once you get a
little less green :-)

Full disclosure is always your best bet. You shouldn't have posted the
spam-like link, and you shouldn't have posted a message like you did without
making it obvious who you are and what your relationship is.

Don't make it sound as though you were slighted. The resident list guy here
saved us all from some misleading marketing tactics. An apology would have
been a more appropriate and mature response.

I'm sure the enthusiasm is appreciated, but you should check with the
company officers or sales folks before marketing on their behalf.

Pete

_____________________________________________________
 Pete Brown - Gambrills, MD (Near Annapolis)
 Visit my personal site : http://www.irritatedVowel.com
 (wallpaper, western maryland ry, .net, photography, model rr)

________________________________________

From: Steve [mailto:alienrelics@...] 
Sent: Friday, December 17, 2004 4:30 PM
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: PCB house posting ads


You joined at 10:58am today, posted (attempted) at 11:05am. So don't
try and make it sound like you are a long time lurker here.

You understand this still looks bad for you and your father's
business. You posted as if you were just a happy customer with no
other connection.

Steve

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "jwjrpcb" <watrach@s...> wrote:
> 
> 
> Hi Steve, 
> 
> I just want to make it clear who I am in relation to a superb 
> supplier. My fatehr is the sales manager, and I am a green fresh out 
> of college 25 year old who is in the design side of the business. 
> Hence, the JwJRpcb. Thanks for the undue criticism without confiring 
> with me first. 
> 
> Sorry if I mislead anyone.I do appreciate the advice and tricks I 
> have picked up here, but i guess I am not going to be using the page 
> anylonger, best wishes!
> Jim Jr.




Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs 


Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT


---------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links

   To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs/
  
   To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
  
   Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. 



Jim Watrach 
985 Milford Street 
Cary, Il 60013 
Wk Cell:(847)274-2710 
Personal Cell:(847)207-7290
 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Jim,
    You need to learn ethics. What you did was not illegal but
unethical. Introducing yourself and saying your father runs a PC house
would have been the correct route. Explaining how the boards are
produced would have contributed to the group. 

                                                    John


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "jwjrpcb" <watrach@s...> wrote:

> 
> 
> Hi Steve, 
> 
> I just want to make it clear who I am in relation to a superb 
> supplier. My fatehr is the sales manager, and I am a green fresh out 
> of college 25 year old who is in the design side of the business. 
> Hence, the JwJRpcb. Thanks for the undue criticism without confiring 
> with me first. 
> 
> Sorry if I mislead anyone.I do appreciate the advice and tricks I 
> have picked up here, but i guess I am not going to be using the page 
> anylonger, best wishes!
> Jim Jr.
> 
> 
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Steve" <alienrelics@y...> 
> wrote:
> > 
> > I don't mind someone from a PCB fab house posting on the list. Or
> > posting a link to their website in the Links page. That's a good 
> thing.
> > 
> > What bothers me is when someone pretends to have no connection with 
> a
> > business except as a customer, when in fact it is their business.
> > 
> > Someone just joined and tried to post a cheery "I found my new
> > supplier! Its cheap fast and high quality! www.efabpcb.com" message 
> as
> > his first to the list. Following my instincts, I followed the link 
> and
> > found that "watrach@" aka "jwjrpcb" had posted his own link. One
> > page identifies their Sales Manager as "Jim Watrach".
> > 
> > Then I went to the Links page and found this added by the same 
> jwjrpcb:
> > 
> > www.efabpcb.com
> > Very high quality, cheap, and fast, I have used them many times for
> > protos, and now using them on production stuff..Its pretty good!
> > http://www.efabpcb.com
> > 
> > I don't know about you, but having their Sales Manager lie does not
> > inspire confidence in their service.
> > 
> > I've deleted the link and I'm leaving jwjrpcb moderated for now. 
> We'll
> > see what he has to say for himself.
> > 
> > Steve Greenfield, listowner

I agree..Thanks for the advice. I already heard it from him anyway. I have apologized, and I am sorry. Take care and happy holidays!

crankorgan <john@...> wrote:
Jim,
    You need to learn ethics. What you did was not illegal but
unethical. Introducing yourself and saying your father runs a PC house
would have been the correct route. Explaining how the boards are
produced would have contributed to the group. 

                                                    John


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "jwjrpcb" <watrach@s...> wrote:
> 
> 
> Hi Steve, 
> 
> I just want to make it clear who I am in relation to a superb 
> supplier. My fatehr is the sales manager, and I am a green fresh out 
> of college 25 year old who is in the design side of the business. 
> Hence, the JwJRpcb. Thanks for the undue criticism without confiring 
> with me first. 
> 
> Sorry if I mislead anyone.I do appreciate the advice and tricks I 
> have picked up here, but i guess I am not going to be using the page 
> anylonger, best wishes!
> Jim Jr.
> 
> 
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Steve" <alienrelics@y...> 
> wrote:
> > 
> > I don't mind someone from a PCB fab house posting on the list. Or
> > posting a link to their website in the Links page. That's a good 
> thing.
> > 
> > What bothers me is when someone pretends to have no connection with 
> a
> > business except as a customer, when in fact it is their business.
> > 
> > Someone just joined and tried to post a cheery "I found my new
> > supplier! Its cheap fast and high quality! www.efabpcb.com" message 
> as
> > his first to the list. Following my instincts, I followed the link 
> and
> > found that "watrach@" aka "jwjrpcb" had posted his own link. One
> > page identifies their Sales Manager as "Jim Watrach".
> > 
> > Then I went to the Links page and found this added by the same 
> jwjrpcb:
> > 
> > www.efabpcb.com
> > Very high quality, cheap, and fast, I have used them many times for
> > protos, and now using them on production stuff..Its pretty good!
> > http://www.efabpcb.com
> > 
> > I don't know about you, but having their Sales Manager lie does not
> > inspire confidence in their service.
> > 
> > I've deleted the link and I'm leaving jwjrpcb moderated for now. 
> We'll
> > see what he has to say for himself.
> > 
> > Steve Greenfield, listowner





Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs 


Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT


---------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links

   To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs/
  
   To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
  
   Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. 




Jim Watrach 
985 Milford Street 
Cary, Il 60013 
Wk Cell:(847)274-2710 
Personal Cell:(847)207-7290
 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hm. He left the list. Too bad, because all it takes is a simple
apology and then we move on. He's young, hopefully he'll learn.

Steve Greenfield

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Steve" <alienrelics@y...> wrote:
> 
> Hm. He left the list. Too bad, because all it takes is a simple
> apology and then we move on. He's young, hopefully he'll learn.
> 
> Steve Greenfield

To be honest, I think it was more like he was chased away.  After
everyone got through spanking him, I wasn't suprised he left.

Phil