Homebrew PCBs

I just made a test ironing of a toner pattern to a copper board, with
very unsuccessful results.

I cleaned the board with a new Scotchbrite type pad and detergent, then
scrubbed it with naptha (Ronson lighter fluid) before trying to iron the
image.

The image was printed in black on Staples Photo Paper, using a Xerox
color printer at the local Staples store.  Even though the printer was
set for maximum darkness, there was no noticable "thickness" to the
black areas on the Photo Paper copy.  Should there be?

The image and paper never actually stuck to the copper board, except for
one small spot. 

The board was hot, hot enough to begin scorching the paper, from the
look of it.  I used a 1200 watt iron set on Linen (hottest setting) for
several minutes.  While I got some image transfer to the copper, it was
not very heavy, and was not resistant to light finger rubbing.

I tried a second transfer, also cleaning the bare board with 600 grit
wet sandpaper.  The result was another partial transfer of the image
_pattern_, but it was not dense enough to be called a resist layer. 
Again, the paper and image areas did not even begin to stick to the
copper surface.  The paper remained completely loose on the board.

Obviously I need to do something differently; should I start by trying a
different printer?

Thank you,

Steve Bartlett

Steve
The lighter fluid has too many 'heavy ends' and will leave an oily film.  Try alcohol or
acetone, in a well ventilated area,or any solvent that does not leave a residue and removes
any oil film present.

JRW

On Wed, 05 Jan 2005 21:47:02 -0500
  Stephen Bartlett <tower.op@...> wrote:

>      I just made a test ironing of a toner pattern to a copper board, with
> very unsuccessful results.
> 
> I cleaned the board with a new Scotchbrite type pad and detergent, then
> scrubbed it with naptha (Ronson lighter fluid) before trying to iron the
> image.
> 
> The image was printed in black on Staples Photo Paper, using a Xerox
> color printer at the local Staples store.  Even though the printer was
> set for maximum darkness, there was no noticable "thickness" to the
> black areas on the Photo Paper copy.  Should there be?
> 
> The image and paper never actually stuck to the copper board, except for
> one small spot. 
> 
> The board was hot, hot enough to begin scorching the paper, from the
> look of it.  I used a 1200 watt iron set on Linen (hottest setting) for
> several minutes.  While I got some image transfer to the copper, it was
> not very heavy, and was not resistant to light finger rubbing.
> 
> I tried a second transfer, also cleaning the bare board with 600 grit
> wet sandpaper.  The result was another partial transfer of the image
> _pattern_, but it was not dense enough to be called a resist layer. 
> Again, the paper and image areas did not even begin to stick to the
> copper surface.  The paper remained completely loose on the board.
> 
> Obviously I need to do something differently; should I start by trying a
> different printer?
> 
> Thank you,
> 
> Steve Bartlett
> 
>   
> 
>  Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs 
> 
>      
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----- Original Message ----- 

From: "Stephen Bartlett" <tower.op@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 06, 2005 2:47 AM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Questionable Toner Transfer Results


> 
> I just made a test ironing of a toner pattern to a copper board, with
> very unsuccessful results.
> 
> I cleaned the board with a new Scotchbrite type pad and detergent, then
> scrubbed it with naptha (Ronson lighter fluid) before trying to iron the
> image.
> 
> The image was printed in black on Staples Photo Paper, using a Xerox
> color printer at the local Staples store.  Even though the printer was
> set for maximum darkness, there was no noticable "thickness" to the
> black areas on the Photo Paper copy.  Should there be?
> 
> The image and paper never actually stuck to the copper board, except for
> one small spot. 
> 
> The board was hot, hot enough to begin scorching the paper, from the
> look of it.  I used a 1200 watt iron set on Linen (hottest setting) for
> several minutes.  While I got some image transfer to the copper, it was
> not very heavy, and was not resistant to light finger rubbing.
> 
> I tried a second transfer, also cleaning the bare board with 600 grit
> wet sandpaper.  The result was another partial transfer of the image
> _pattern_, but it was not dense enough to be called a resist layer. 
> Again, the paper and image areas did not even begin to stick to the
> copper surface.  The paper remained completely loose on the board.
> 
> Obviously I need to do something differently; should I start by trying a
> different printer?

It might be the printer/toner. HP LaserJets always work well for TT.

Leon


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>
>Obviously I need to do something differently; should I start by trying a
>different printer?
>  
>
I'd say yes, I have only had a few goes myself, I picked up an old hp4l 
from a car boot sale(bring your own yard sale) and had good transfer 
first time with it with some asda(Walmart) georgia pacific inkjet paper 
and the wifes iron which I think is also about 1200 watt

just bought a cheap laminator(aldi) but not tried it yet.

Hi STEVE..

I think it might be the toner.  I have tried using our photo copier
and that didnt work for very well..

I then tried a Lazer 2200D and works 100% and then at home I used a
Lazer4L and also works well.

Are u waiting till the toner dries again and board cools before
removing the paper??
Also make sure the board does that water runoff thingie  "Not sure
what you call it, but water should just run off and then you no that
you havent got a oil layer"

Let US know..

Gary

-----Original Message-----
From: Stephen Bartlett [mailto:tower.op@...]
Sent: 06 January 2005 04:47
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Questionable Toner Transfer Results


I just made a test ironing of a toner pattern to a copper board, with
very unsuccessful results.

I cleaned the board with a new Scotchbrite type pad and detergent,
then
scrubbed it with naptha (Ronson lighter fluid) before trying to iron
the
image.

The image was printed in black on Staples Photo Paper, using a Xerox
color printer at the local Staples store.  Even though the printer was
set for maximum darkness, there was no noticable "thickness" to the
black areas on the Photo Paper copy.  Should there be?

The image and paper never actually stuck to the copper board, except
for
one small spot.

The board was hot, hot enough to begin scorching the paper, from the
look of it.  I used a 1200 watt iron set on Linen (hottest setting)
for
several minutes.  While I got some image transfer to the copper, it
was
not very heavy, and was not resistant to light finger rubbing.

I tried a second transfer, also cleaning the bare board with 600 grit
wet sandpaper.  The result was another partial transfer of the image
_pattern_, but it was not dense enough to be called a resist layer.
Again, the paper and image areas did not even begin to stick to the
copper surface.  The paper remained completely loose on the board.

Obviously I need to do something differently; should I start by trying
a
different printer?

Thank you,

Steve Bartlett



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi, bought a lexmark m412 at ebay, without toner.
Is it any good for TT? anyone tried it? It is the same toner as the M410.

(other lexmark results are interesting too.

The toner is so expensive i would hope to find out if it will TT well  
before buying one.

ST

----- Original Message ----- 

From: "Stefan Trethan" <stefan_trethan@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 06, 2005 10:56 AM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Anyone using Lexmark for TT?


>
>
> Hi, bought a lexmark m412 at ebay, without toner.
> Is it any good for TT? anyone tried it? It is the same toner as the M410.
>
> (other lexmark results are interesting too.
>
> The toner is so expensive i would hope to find out if it will TT well
> before buying one.

I tried a top of the range Lexmark where I used to work for TT, using PnP 
blue film. It worked OK.

Leon 



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No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.6.8 - Release Date: 03/01/2005

On Thu, 6 Jan 2005 15:23:59 -0000, Leon Heller <leon.heller@...>  
wrote:

>
> I tried a top of the range Lexmark where I used to work for TT, using PnP
> blue film. It worked OK.
> Leon


Hmm i hope it works with paper transfer as well. should have gotten a HP i  
think. I've read reviews that the 1200dpi the lexmark m412 claims are not  
realistic. well, the printer was only 30eur or so, and the toner costs a  
lot more!
I'm used to toner prices of the IIID where i  bought them for below 10eur  
each.

ST

Steve,

I didn't catch the lighter fluid when I first read your post.  JRW is right - it leaves a coat of oil.  In addition to his suggestion you may try lacquer thinner.  I prefer just plain water - no detergent - and scrub with a scotchbrite pad until you get a water break free surface.  Hold a wet board vertically.  If there is any oil water will bead up like on wax.  If it is really clean the water will just sheet off without any sign of beading.   If you use a detergent, detergent residues may mask the presence of small amounts of oil.

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: J R Williams 
  To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Wednesday, January 05, 2005 11:31 PM
  Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Questionable Toner Transfer Results



  Steve
  The lighter fluid has too many 'heavy ends' and will leave an oily film.  Try alcohol or
  acetone, in a well ventilated area,or any solvent that does not leave a residue and removes
  any oil film present.

  JRW

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Many thanks to everyone who responded.

As I cleaned the board, I had no beading of water when done; it sheeted
off like it was oil-free.  The board as I received it seemed to have a
waxy coating, reminiscent of dried cosmolene.  I think I got all that
off.

I will use lacquer thinner or acetone outdoors, with suitable skin and
lung protection.

I will visit a few local copy centers this afternoon and see what I can
find in the way of laser copiers that will apply a more apparently heavy
layer of toner than I got originally.

Re: Gary's question, "Are u waiting till the toner dries again
              and board cools before removing the paper??"

Neither the paper of the toner ever "stuck" to the board, although I did
manage to apply a visible image over about 80% of the traces.

So,

	Try a different copier(s)

	Use lacquer thinner or acetone, not lighter fluid.

Thanks,

Steve Bartlett

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Stephen Bartlett <tower.op@v...>
wrote:
> Many thanks to everyone who responded.
> 
> As I cleaned the board, I had no beading of water when done; it sheeted
> off like it was oil-free.  The board as I received it seemed to have a
> waxy coating, reminiscent of dried cosmolene.  I think I got all that
> off.
> 
> I will use lacquer thinner or acetone outdoors, with suitable skin and
> lung protection.
> 
> I will visit a few local copy centers this afternoon and see what I can
> find in the way of laser copiers that will apply a more apparently heavy
> layer of toner than I got originally.
> 
> Re: Gary's question, "Are u waiting till the toner dries again
>               and board cools before removing the paper??"
> 
> Neither the paper of the toner ever "stuck" to the board, although I did
> manage to apply a visible image over about 80% of the traces.
> 
> So,
> 
> 	Try a different copier(s)
> 
> 	Use lacquer thinner or acetone, not lighter fluid.
>
 
I use acetone.  It works incredibly well.  

I'd look at the printer that you used.  Do you know the model number?
Is it really toner based and not an inkjet?  Your experience sounds
like what happened when I got an inkjet copy of my artwork mixed up
with the toner based copy (I print on a hi-res inkjet and use a copier
for the toner).  It sort of transfered a faint image.  I suggest you
stick to monochrome laser printers or copiers.  

Keep at it, it is very satisfying the first time you peel off the
paper to find your artwork on copper.

On Thu, 06 Jan 2005 12:19:40 -0500, Stephen Bartlett  
<tower.op@...> wrote:

>
> I will use lacquer thinner or acetone outdoors, with suitable skin and
> lung protection.
> I will visit a few local copy centers this afternoon and see what I can
> find in the way of laser copiers that will apply a more apparently heavy
> layer of toner than I got originally.


I had better results with alcohol or acetone than laquer thinner, but it  
might have been that the laquer thinner bottle was contaminated by wetting  
a greasy rag for other purpuses.

(By the way to avoid solvent contamination i found it extremely useful to  
glue a bicycle valve into the stopper of each solvent bottle i have  
(remove the ball or rubber hose). These valves come with a nice plastic  
screw-cap. Ideal small-amount dripping dispenser. just to make that clear  
again, the one-way function is disabled, the valve just acts as a nice  
metal stub with a proper screw-on cap.)

A heavier toner layer seems to be a good idea too.

You can use IPA or ethanol instead of acetone, works just as well (even  
easier to us because it evaporates slower). I wouldn't use laquer thinner  
simply because you never know what is in there.
Use safety glasses.

ST

I made the copies at Staples.  All the Black copiers are Xerox make, but
made a dirty image with the darkness cranked up.

I will have to check the make and model of the color copier -- I
neglected to note the make or model, but it is definitely a toner-type
coier.  We opened it to clear the second copy, which got hung up between
application of toner and the fuser.  The black image rubbed off easily
before fusing.  Also, it has cylindrical containers of various colored
toners.  It did make clean copies, depending on the settings, and was
set for black only.

I am headed off this afternoon to explore other machines and copy
centers, and get some acetone.

Steve Bartlett

Phil wrote:

> ...
> 
> I'd look at the printer that you used.  Do you know the model number?
> Is it really toner based and not an inkjet?  ...

In article <opsj6tir1mmg0lsf@...>,
   Stefan Trethan <stefan_trethan@...> wrote:
> Hmm i hope it works with paper transfer as well. should have gotten a HP
> i think. I've read reviews that the 1200dpi the lexmark m412 claims
> are not realistic. well, the printer was only 30eur or so, and the
> toner costs a lot more!

> I'm used to toner prices of the IIID where i 
> bought them for below 10eur each.

Well known modern printer manufacturer scam. Sell you the printer for
almost nothing and then sell the ink or toner at inflated prices to make
lots of profit!

Some injets when supplied have modified cartridges with only a small
amount of ink in them!

Stuart

In message <44E4766023F0434280CD9086EEDDB05CD6A5FC@...>
          "Gary Anderson (G)" <andersg@...> wrote:

> Also make sure the board does that water runoff thingie  "Not sure
> what you call it, but water should just run off and then you no that
> you havent got a oil layer"

Yeah - I know what you mean. If the water forms a sheet on the copper layer,
it's clean. If the water beads up, there's oil on the board.

Later.
-- 
Phil.                              | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB,
philpem@...              | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice,
http://www.philpem.me.uk/          | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI
... Evil Grin #13  <<<<<GRIN>>>>>

In message <opsj60asaqmg0lsf@...>
          "Stefan Trethan" <stefan_trethan@...> wrote:

> You can use IPA or ethanol instead of acetone, works just as well (even  
> easier to us because it evaporates slower). I wouldn't use laquer thinner  
> simply because you never know what is in there.

I use IPA - specifically, Servisol IPA-170 in an aerosol can. It works quite
well for removing most residues from PCBs, especially flux. Nail varnish
remover and a piece of kitchen paper is ideal for removing toner after
etching the board. I usually leave the toner on until after I've drilled the
board, though.

Later.
-- 
Phil.                              | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB,
philpem@...              | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice,
http://www.philpem.me.uk/          | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI
... A fail-safe circuit will destroy others.

On Thu, 06 Jan 2005 21:08:51 +0100, lists  
<stuart.winsor.lists@...> wrote:

>
> Well known modern printer manufacturer scam. Sell you the printer for
> almost nothing and then sell the ink or toner at inflated prices to make
> lots of profit!
> Some injets when supplied have modified cartridges with only a small
> amount of ink in them!
> Stuart


That's all true, but my IIID as much i'd like is no longer up to making  
PCBs. 300DPI is just a bit on the low side.

Of course i could buy a more expensive HP printer, the toner would be  
slightly less expensive....

ST

I went to Kinko's, and luckily arrived at another quiet time.  Talked to
a man behind the counter about what I was doing.  He did not want to run
the Staples Inkjet photo paper through his machine, but ran his usual
gloss photo paper and made three copies of the artwork you sent
originally.  I did not think I should insist on using a paper he did not
want to use...it is his machine, his responsibility.  His thought was
that it would damage the machine's fuser.

The Kinko's copies have a different appearance from the Staples copies
of Sunday. The black has a shiny rather than matte surface, and I can
see a slightly raised surface to the black, with a slight stippling of
the surface, similar to a silkscreen image.  I can also feel a slight
step, running a fingernail across the white paper to the black image.
With the the Staples copies, the black image appeared to be absolutely
flush with the surface of the paper.

I stopped at Staples to note the name of their copier, which I had used
on Sunday.

Both are "Xerox Docucolor 12" machines.  Unless I experienced only a
difference in settings, it is possible that they are using different
toners.

After cleaning the blank with acetone, I ironed a test pattern and got
an image transfer, and also this time the paper with image stuck to the
copper.  However, it takes a lot of soaking to get down to the final
paper layer.  I am still soaking it and working on it....an hour later,
the last layer of paper is very resistant to removal, ao I would
consider it unsatisfactory.  Scraping the paper with a fingernail also
removes the toner image.

I also had a major problem keeping the paper and image from sliding
around on the copper board while applying heat with the clothes iron. 
This will take considerably more thought, or at least, more
concentration.

So my final thoughts are,

1) The Kinko's image on the Docucolor 12 machine is good and will
transfer well to the copper, subject to inspection for pinholes or other
blank spots WHEN I get all the paper off, and 

2) The glossy laser print paper this Kinko's uses in their machine is
unsuitable for this purpose; it cannot be totally removed without
destroying the transferred toner image.

Steve

I tried a local, non-chain copy center today.  The two ladies there were
very helpful, and made me some copies using Staples Photo paper.  I got
a good test transfer on a 1 X 5 inch scrap sample.  Most of the paper
comes off fairly well, but it is difficult to get the narrow areas
between traces to come clear.  One spot about 3/16 inch diameter lost
the toner as well; probably I did not get that spot clean enough.  The
rest seems fairly durable.

The test sample, with most of the paper removed, has now been soaking
since 1 PM.  That is kind of long to have to fight the paper to get it
completely off for more than a very few boards.

Some people have suggested using coated magazine pages or covers.  I am
not sure I want to ask the ladies to run that through their rather
expensive looking machine. 

However, I am making slow progress.

Steve Bartlett