Homebrew PCBs

Oki data's led printer gives much better result in protecting lines.
But, printer itsself not good in other points. I even can't found
a steady working driver for it. 

My hp laserjet faster and reliable. But gives too thin toner, 
too light. I can increase darkness of it. How to do it?





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On Sat, 16 Apr 2005 06:27:02 -0400, microsoftwarecontrol  
<microsoftwarecontrol@...> wrote:

>
> Oki data's led printer gives much better result in protecting lines.
> But, printer itsself not good in other points. I even can't found
> a steady working driver for it.
> My hp laserjet faster and reliable. But gives too thin toner,
> too light. I can increase darkness of it. How to do it?


What is protecting of lines? always wondered.

For the HP4, my HP3 has a green wheel to set the hv which you can adjust  
when the lid was open.
But i think all newer printers do that over software only. You should find  
it in the printer properties.
My lexmark M412 has the toner density setting there.

Also, i found with HP genuine HP toner is darker than rebuild (the brand i  
had at least).

ST

Hi folks
I am wondering has anone ever tried to disconnect the fuser (the hot
chamber the paper runns trough to fuse the toner to the paper?
I have notices that when there was a paper jam the section printed but
not fused has the toner very loosly on the paper, which if it can be
handled without disturbing the pattern may result in a more complete
transfer of toner ?

cheers

Tobias

P.S>: It would be cool if sombody could figure out how to increse the
precission of the print offset (margin) so well that one could print 2
or more layers of toner?

On 4/16/05, Stefan Trethan <stefan_trethan@gmx.at> wrote:
> 
> On Sat, 16 Apr 2005 06:27:02 -0400, microsoftwarecontrol
> <microsoftwarecontrol@...> wrote:
> 
> >
> > Oki data's led printer gives much better result in protecting lines.
> > But, printer itsself not good in other points. I even can't found
> > a steady working driver for it.
> > My hp laserjet faster and reliable. But gives too thin toner,
> > too light. I can increase darkness of it. How to do it?
> 
> What is protecting of lines? always wondered.
> 
> For the HP4, my HP3 has a green wheel to set the hv which you can adjust
> when the lid was open.
> But i think all newer printers do that over software only. You should find
> it in the printer properties.
> My lexmark M412 has the toner density setting there.
> 
> Also, i found with HP genuine HP toner is darker than rebuild (the brand i
> had at least).
> 
> ST
> 
> 
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> 
> 
>

On Sat, 16 Apr 2005 13:39:18 -0700, Tobias Gogolin <usertogo@...>  
wrote:

>
> Hi folks
> I am wondering has anone ever tried to disconnect the fuser (the hot
> chamber the paper runns trough to fuse the toner to the paper?
> I have notices that when there was a paper jam the section printed but
> not fused has the toner very loosly on the paper, which if it can be
> handled without disturbing the pattern may result in a more complete
> transfer of toner ?
> cheers
> Tobias
> P.S>: It would be cool if sombody could figure out how to increse the
> precission of the print offset (margin) so well that one could print 2
> or more layers of toner?


i do not think the loose toner would be practical, alignment and all.
I remember one time it got stuck and i manged to rescue the printout by  
running it through the fuser i use for transfer.
I do not see what the advantage would be of keeping the toner loose, how  
would you get it on the PCB without simultaneously fusing it to the paper  
anyway?
Do try the silicone paper if you have trouble with release. I will do more  
experimenting soon, with neutral-curing silicone i got a few days ago so  
there are no acetic acid concerns.

i don't think you can print twice with a laser, inkjets are better with  
alignment.

ST

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan"
<stefan_trethan@g...> wrote:
> On Sat, 16 Apr 2005 13:39:18 -0700, Tobias Gogolin <usertogo@g...>  
> wrote:
> 
> >
> > Hi folks
> > I am wondering has anone ever tried to disconnect the fuser (the hot
> > chamber the paper runns trough to fuse the toner to the paper?
> > I have notices that when there was a paper jam the section printed but
> > not fused has the toner very loosly on the paper, which if it can be
> > handled without disturbing the pattern may result in a more complete
> > transfer of toner ?
> > cheers
> > Tobias
> > P.S>: It would be cool if sombody could figure out how to increse the
> > precission of the print offset (margin) so well that one could print 2
> > or more layers of toner?
> 
> 
> i do not think the loose toner would be practical, alignment and all.
> I remember one time it got stuck and i manged to rescue the printout
by  
> running it through the fuser i use for transfer.
> I do not see what the advantage would be of keeping the toner loose,
how  
> would you get it on the PCB without simultaneously fusing it to the
paper  
> anyway?
> Do try the silicone paper if you have trouble with release. I will
do more  
> experimenting soon, with neutral-curing silicone i got a few days
ago so  
> there are no acetic acid concerns.
> 
> i don't think you can print twice with a laser, inkjets are better
with  
> alignment.
> 
> ST

I pulled the fuser out of my HP4L.  Tried printing on various
media.  One problem was repulsion of like-charged particles tended
to fuzz out the trace.  Putting aluminum foil between the backing
sheet and media being printed helped that a lot.
but I still had a lot of trouble keeping it from spreading due to
handling shock.

Tried electrostatic transfer to the board.  Sorta worked, but had
too many voids in the 8 mil traces.

Tell  us more about the neutral-curing silicone.  Brand, cost?

mike

On Sun, 17 Apr 2005 07:38:27 -0000, retired0 <retired0@...> wrote:

>
> Tell  us more about the neutral-curing silicone. Brand, cost?
> mike


Any brand is very similar i assume. It is just normal silicone chaulk,  
which comes in a big "syringe". You should have that tool which presses  
the plunger, but i guess for paper coating you could do without.
I only tried with acid curing, and it worked great, but someone mentioned  
the acid that is produced during curing might harm the printer. So i  
bought neutral curing at the DIY store a few days ago, chose grey variey  
so it is well visible on paper and also the black toner on it is well  
visible. It costs about 5eur, a bit more than acid curing one at ~3eur.  
310ml that is i think, you can coat a huge amount of paper with that.

The whole point is this silicone has a slightly tacky surface (you can't  
slide anything over it), as opposed to papers for baking or label backing  
which have a very slick surface. This allows the toner to stay in place,  
but allows it to come off easily too.

ST

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan"
<stefan_trethan@g...> wrote:
> On Sun, 17 Apr 2005 07:38:27 -0000, retired0 <retired0@y...> wrote:
> 
> >
> > Tell  us more about the neutral-curing silicone. Brand, cost?
> > mike
> 
> 
> Any brand is very similar i assume. It is just normal silicone chaulk,  
> which comes in a big "syringe". You should have that tool which
presses  
> the plunger, but i guess for paper coating you could do without.
> I only tried with acid curing, and it worked great, but someone
mentioned  
> the acid that is produced during curing might harm the printer. So i  
> bought neutral curing at the DIY store a few days ago, chose grey
variey  
> so it is well visible on paper and also the black toner on it is well  
> visible. It costs about 5eur, a bit more than acid curing one at
~3eur.  
> 310ml that is i think, you can coat a huge amount of paper with that.
> 
> The whole point is this silicone has a slightly tacky surface (you
can't  
> slide anything over it), as opposed to papers for baking or label
backing  
> which have a very slick surface. This allows the toner to stay in
place,  
> but allows it to come off easily too.
> 
> ST

Ok, but I was asking the brand name and part number of the
neutral-curing sealant.
In the US, I've searched high and low.  The only stuff I've found
has been Dow Corning 3145rtv.  Well, there's other stuff, but it isn't
any cheaper.  I've personally verified that you can put this stuff
directly onto electronic components without harming them.  Last I
checked, it was over
$20 for a 3oz. tube.  That's horrible even if you plan to use the
whole tube.  But it starts hardening in the tube after you open it and
I find
I waste 95% of the tube.

There was some stuff at the hardware store that claimed to be
non-corrosive, but after researching it, I convinced myself that
it still wasn't safe for electronic stuff.  I'd be glad to hear
otherwise.

mike

On Sun, 17 Apr 2005 20:27:23 -0000, retired0 <retired0@...> wrote:

>
> Ok, but I was asking the brand name and part number of the
> neutral-curing sealant.
> In the US, I've searched high and low.  The only stuff I've found
> has been Dow Corning 3145rtv.  Well, there's other stuff, but it isn't
> any cheaper.  I've personally verified that you can put this stuff
> directly onto electronic components without harming them.  Last I
> checked, it was over
> $20 for a 3oz. tube.  That's horrible even if you plan to use the
> whole tube.  But it starts hardening in the tube after you open it and
> I find
> I waste 95% of the tube.
> There was some stuff at the hardware store that claimed to be
> non-corrosive, but after researching it, I convinced myself that
> it still wasn't safe for electronic stuff.  I'd be glad to hear
> otherwise.
> mike


Well, it isn't actually in permanent contact with any electronics, it must  
only be non-corrosive to printer parts when fully cured.

There are about a dozen brands of silicone here i have seen, and there are  
sure many more than that. I just chose the one that DIY store had (the  
cheapest of them).

the one i have right now is "SOUDAL" "neutral silikon" made in belgium.  
But as said there are many, many brands and i'm quite sure all perform  
similar.
The neutral silicone is the one used for stones like marble and also it is  
used for polycarbonate and other plastics where acid curing doesn't stick.

It is damn hard to find a US source on the web, maybe it is called  
differently.
see these UK pages:
<http://www.decoratingdirect.co.uk/viewprod/s/SIRSSLMN/>
<http://www.decoratingdirect.co.uk/viewprod/r/RODMG11/>

you should buy a 310ml/10oz catridge for under 10us. I can't believe it  
can't be found in every DIY store.

ST

After opening a tube of silicone for its first use, try storing the 
remainder of the tube in the refrigerator.  I find it keeps for months.
Bill
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "retired0" <retired0@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, April 18, 2005 6:27 AM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: no fuser (was: How to ajust toner darkness in 
HP LaserJet 4m plus printer?)

>
>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan"
> <stefan_trethan@g...> wrote:
>> On Sun, 17 Apr 2005 07:38:27 -0000, retired0 <retired0@y...> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> > Tell  us more about the neutral-curing silicone. Brand, cost?
>> > mike
>>
>>
>> Any brand is very similar i assume. It is just normal silicone chaulk,
>> which comes in a big "syringe". You should have that tool which
> presses
>> the plunger, but i guess for paper coating you could do without.
>> I only tried with acid curing, and it worked great, but someone
> mentioned
>> the acid that is produced during curing might harm the printer. So i
>> bought neutral curing at the DIY store a few days ago, chose grey
> variey
>> so it is well visible on paper and also the black toner on it is well
>> visible. It costs about 5eur, a bit more than acid curing one at
> ~3eur.
>> 310ml that is i think, you can coat a huge amount of paper with that.
>>
>> The whole point is this silicone has a slightly tacky surface (you
> can't
>> slide anything over it), as opposed to papers for baking or label
> backing
>> which have a very slick surface. This allows the toner to stay in
> place,
>> but allows it to come off easily too.
>>
>> ST
>
> Ok, but I was asking the brand name and part number of the
> neutral-curing sealant.
> In the US, I've searched high and low.  The only stuff I've found
> has been Dow Corning 3145rtv.  Well, there's other stuff, but it isn't
> any cheaper.  I've personally verified that you can put this stuff
> directly onto electronic components without harming them.  Last I
> checked, it was over
> $20 for a 3oz. tube.  That's horrible even if you plan to use the
> whole tube.  But it starts hardening in the tube after you open it and
> I find
> I waste 95% of the tube.
>
> There was some stuff at the hardware store that claimed to be
> non-corrosive, but after researching it, I convinced myself that
> it still wasn't safe for electronic stuff.  I'd be glad to hear
> otherwise.
>
> mike
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Bill Maxwell wrote:
> After opening a tube of silicone for its first use, try storing the 
> remainder of the tube in the refrigerator.  I find it keeps for months.
> Bill


   Same goes for most paints as well.

   For the neutral type guys look for the no odor variety.  Way more people buy 
it to not have to deal with the vinegar smell than are worried about a circuit 
board etc, so that's what it's usually marketed for..

   I don't think it's worth worrying about though, with a thin smear it's mostly 
gone in a few minutes.  Fairly sure the acid is basically gone when the smell 
is, its chemical action is what cures the silicone.  Bad for electronics from 
initial contact and trapped acid more than there's a whole lot of acid 
continuing to come from it..

   Pretty much has to be basically inert when dry, paints go over it with few if 
any having any problems.

   Making up 5-10 sheets myself here in just a few minutes, hope there's enough 
toner left in my printer.

Alan

Another question how about Negative Iron On Transfers with following
electroplating
(first copper then an etch resistent metal) Are they using tin ?

What i am speculating about is that those little holes in the iron on
wont be as bad unless they are in between very tight spaces (gaps)
that would now be toner

Anyhow where would one get those electroplating substances, even if
using maybe photo transfer ?

Thanks

Tobias

On 4/17/05, Alan King <alan@...> wrote:
> 
> Bill Maxwell wrote:
> > After opening a tube of silicone for its first use, try storing the
> > remainder of the tube in the refrigerator.  I find it keeps for months.
> > Bill
> 
>   Same goes for most paints as well.
> 
>   For the neutral type guys look for the no odor variety.  Way more people buy
> it to not have to deal with the vinegar smell than are worried about a circuit
> board etc, so that's what it's usually marketed for..
> 
>   I don't think it's worth worrying about though, with a thin smear it's mostly
> gone in a few minutes.  Fairly sure the acid is basically gone when the smell
> is, its chemical action is what cures the silicone.  Bad for electronics from
> initial contact and trapped acid more than there's a whole lot of acid
> continuing to come from it..
> 
>   Pretty much has to be basically inert when dry, paints go over it with few if
> any having any problems.
> 
>   Making up 5-10 sheets myself here in just a few minutes, hope there's enough
> toner left in my printer.
> 
> Alan
> 
> 
> 
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> 
> 
>