Apple Logic Pro /LogicExpress Discussion

Hi again Iraklis,

--- In Logic_Cafe@yahoogroups.com, "iraklis_l" <iraklis.lampropoulos@...> wrote:

> Since my clipping does not occur on the bass channel, but rather this 
> bass channel is causing the MAIN OUTPUT to clip, I understand that I 
> need to use the Limiter on it (the channel) instead of a compresor 
> and the Ad-Limiter on the output as I already have. However what 
> should I do in order for my output not to clip WITHOUT the Ad-
> Limiter? Of course the normal answer is to bring the whole output mix 
> down which is what I have done until there is no clipping and then 
> add the Ad-Limiter back in to bring up the level I lost. However this 
> results to the song being very low in volume compared to normal radio 
> mixes. Shouldn't the Ad-Limiter compensate by definition (since it 
> uses brickwall) for all the level I lost when I reduced the output 
> level slider?
> 
> Another approach I have tried is to leave the output level at 0dB and 
> reduce the level of all channels the same number of dBs so that their 
> relative levels are maintained. With this method, in order to get the 
> output not to clip I have to reduce all levels tremendously, which 
> again leads to a song of low volume, for which the Ad-Limiter does 
> NOT compensate back. It is all due to this one bass channel. 
> 
> Do you have any other method of preference that you would suggest or 
> do you believe that once I add the Limiter on the bass channel (will 
> try it when back tonite) I will be able to maintain my whole mix loud 
> without clipping with the output at 0dB and then add the Ad-Limiter 
> for the final extra couple of dBs?

Ah, ye olde dominant bass. This is a classic mixing headache you are negotiating here :)

Perhaps the first thing you should consider is that any commercial song you hear on the 
radio is EXTREMELY compressed and brickwall limited, beyond the point where it's even 
healthy. First it's compressed and limited some by the mix engineer, then the mastering 
engineer will crush it up a ton with a brickwall limiter (for you, that's the equivalent of 
putting your well-mixed track into the adaptive limiter reaaaally hot... though I don't think 
the adaptive limiter goes that hot? Can't say too much here cos I haven't used it much), 
and then this already massively crushed material is fed by the radio station through a 
series of filters and compressors to squish it even further when they broadcast it. It's a 
competitive war of loudness that can't really be won, and it's at its worst in the realm of 
commercial music that can be heard on radio. If you're working in some other genre, you 
may have more breathing space and a greater tolerance for more dynamic levels, but if 
not...

So first, don't aim for as loud as radio, even as your own mastering engineer, because 
that's the extreme end of the process. It's also been shown that a song not brickwall 
limited to hell comes out sounding better on the radio than the one that has, cos it's hard 
to futher squish something that's already of pancake width.

My next suggestion though is that the use of EQ in your mix is just as important as your 
use of compression and limiting - maybe more important - in achieving general loudness 
and a satisfying mix. Especially in the case of a troublesome bass (will discuss in a 
second.) So, I dunno how far along you are along in your understanding of EQ VS your 
understanding thus far of comp/limiting, but you should probably accept that until you 
can use all of these things with some skill, it will prove hard for you to get a mix that 
sounds competitively/comparably loud or full, versus the products of people who do know 
how to use these things which you hear all around you all the time. (It's frustrating - I've 
been there)

Loudness comes down to there being a finite amount of frequency bandwidth for your 
recording. Typically when the instruments all just play as they were recorded, many of 
them will share large chunks of frequency. Where they clash overtly the result can be 
muddiness or complete masking of sound, plus all those frequencies that are being 
doubled up are eating up your bandwidth. The track will hit zero db sooner without 
sounding particularly loud. With EQ you can strip overlapping frequencies in part or in 
whole from one or both (or more) of the instruments which are clashing. The non-stripped 
frequencies you leave somewhere fill that area of the spectrum, but the muddiness goes, 
you gain bandwidth, and hopefully the frequencies containing the most characteristic 
qualities of the instrument remain and are heard better than before. You get better sound 
and the same or greater loudness while your main output doesn't peak as soon.

So the bass is a very typical problem-maker. Bass instruments take up a lot of your mix in 
any case 'cos of the way the human ear works, so you tend to have make room for them. 
Find other instruments which are bassy and try rolling off the lower frequencies. As you do 
this, you may find your main bass track becomes more audible, hence you can turn it 
down, hence the whole track doesn't cliip as soon... etc etc. Roll bass off any tracks which 
don't have bass elements, or very minimal ones. Every bit of bandwidth you reclaim can 
help. Of course this all takes a lot of practise to be able to do, but you just gotta get in 
there and start trying at some point. Roll some bass off, listen to the mix, use your ears. If 
things ever sound 'worse' or annoying, put back what you've taken out and look for 
alternate solutions, other instruments you can treat.

While learning to use EQ, a spectrum analyser can be extremely useful, cos it'll show you 
the effect of your fiddlings on the spectrum while you hear them at the same time. If 
you're on Logic Pro, there's one somewhere amongst the helper plugins, though the free 
Inspector from EA is better.  Just looking at these things can show you hot or weak 
frequency spots in your mix.

For your song - I suggest mentally putting the adaptive limiter aside for now and 
concentrate on making the mix and individual tracks work better. When you've got a 
decent mix, then feed it into the ad-limiter to get that last stage boost of loudness. Which 
should still not be as loud as radio ;)