Apple Logic Pro /LogicExpress Discussion

On Jan 22, 2005, at 12:49 AM, Hans Hafner wrote:

> OK,
>  I also have to come in here and defend myself:
>
>  >On Jan 20, 2005, at 10:35 PM, Hans Hafner wrote:
>  >  > My complaint is, that it is almost unusable due to
>  >  >
>  >>  - it being too slow in reacting to my clicks
>
>  Dennis:
>  >Not here.
>
>  Well, that didn't help then either, now did it? I
>  know lots of people who have reported this
>  sluggish behaviour on the slow machines we are
>  using. So this is an issue and it can be done
>  better because it was better in 6.

And conversely I have seen lots of people who say redraws are faster in 
7.0.1 on their slow machines.  But to respond to your question it 
should help you to know that your "response too slow" problem is not 
generic to those using L7 and is probably a problem at your end.

Apple could probably do better to make logic work on bronze age wind up 
Macs but personally I have not encountered the problem perhaps because 
I prefer using a fast machine and a newer version.  So personally I 
don't particularly care about that specific complaint personally I am 
more ticked off that they still are not making much use of those 
expensive GPUs they put in high end Macs.

>  Me:
>  >  > - text boxes not accepting text
>
>  Dennis:
>  >I have seen this under some circumstances, works OK in 7.0.1 so far 
> if
>  >you can tell me a situation in which it does not that might help.
>
>  Me again:
>  Group assignment, save dialog box, the EXS preferences. (see below)
>
>  Well, what can I say, to this day I'm getting it
>  with Logics own windows

You can say exactly which ones.

> and
>  with those of other
>  plug-ins (mainly Filterscape in this case) but it
>  happened with all sorts of save dialogs (song,
>  channel strip, preset)

You are going to have to be more specific than "all sorts"  It works 
fine for the song, and channel strips, over here, I don't own 
filterscape.

>  What am I supposed to write? How I opened the box?

I don't know, because I did take the time to check group assignments 
and channel strips and I could enter text fine so I am wondering if you 
mean some other group assignments that I don't know about.

filterscape issues and logic issues are not the same and should not be 
lumped together.

I did find that like you say there was something funky with the text 
entry in the in the three text entry fields of the EXS preference box. 
FYI over here at least you can get them to enter by putting in the text 
in a field then closing the window and reopening it to put the text in 
the next field.

So there is one bug of the three logic specific things you mention 
there that I can actually verify.  The other two I cannot.  So

  Filterscape is 3rd party and they should probably be the ones to deal 
with it.

>  Me:
>  >  > - I had to fix the catch function by trashing all prefs, going 
> back
>  >>  to 6 setting it right, and then going back to 7 (yes there was a 
> fix
>  >>  but it cost me 2 hours yesterday and half an hour today and I
>  >>  consider this an issue that I shouldn't have to deal with)
>
>  Dennis:
>  >What parameter exactly are you talking about?
>
>  In Logic 6 there is a catch setting named
>  "enabled catch when sequencer starts" that is not
>  present any longer in 7 and after trashing prefs
>  you can _not_ go back to the catch function _not_
>  being enabled. I thought I was making myself
>  clear, but obviously I wasn't. I'm sorry. I hope
>  this is clearer. Also, this was confirmed by
>  someone else.

Yes, this appears to be true, enable catch should be there and if it is 
I can't find it.  Looks like they removed one too many preferences.


>  Me:
>  >  > - tremolo plug-in not working correctly in sync
>
>  Dennis:
>  >Oh well, you don't like logic plugins anyway so I am sure one of the
>  >superior third party plugs you mention is doing this OK for you.
>
>  I should add to this that I should have said: not
>  _always_ working in sync. Most of the time it
>  does but I've had instances where it doesn't.

Well I checked it and it is working fine here, and yes, you must 
certainly understand that when a problem appears only under a certain 
set of circumstances or is intermittent you have to specify that is the 
case if you are hoping anything will get done about it.  And if you can 
specify the conditions that cause the problem it will go a long way 
toward getting it fixed because it gives the developers something to go 
on.


>  Me:
>  >  > - today I've had pop-up menus jump all the way accross the 
> screen a
>  >>  couple of times (this is of course only a minor annoyance but it
>  >>  leaves me with a strange feeling of distrust)
>
>  Dennis:
>  >I have never seen this.
>

And I still haven't.

The point being that it seems to you that it is just "self evident" 
that L7 sucks.  How can anyone think otherwise when you can see all of 
these "terrible" problems.  Well perhaps the problem is I lack the 
benefit of having the universe revolve around me and cannot properly 
see things from your perspective.  I haven't seen the problem you 
describe.  I don't "just know" what you are talking about.

>  Me:
>  >  > - the dreaded cycle and catch bug that will show the beginning 
> of the
>  >  > cycle on right edge of the window and then jump to the left edge
>  >>  while cutting off the beginning of the cycle even though the whole
>  >>  cycle would fit into the window (this has been around since at 
> least
>  >>  version 4!)
>
>  Dennis:
>  >I hate this too, but going back to 6.xx is not going to help now is 
> it?
>
>  Sorry, but how can I be more specific and how was this comment 
> helpful?

I did not say you weren't being specific in this case I was just 
pointing out that your proposed solution to the problem is obviously 
irrational.  If you want to go back to version 3 because you think the 
arrange view does not jump around in cycle mode (actually it did back 
then too) be my guest, if you think suffering is the key better display 
behavior during cycling I suppose you could also try skewering your 
penis with an ice pick and see if that helps.

>  >  > - pop-up menu speed of the instrument selector in the EXS getting
>  >>  slower and slower and slooooower
>
>  Dennis:
>  >This is something you can do something about either by refreshing the
>  >paths using the project manager or if you want to do it faster by 
> using
>  >Redmatica's excellent EXS manager.
>
>  When read closely one will see, that I was
>  talking about the pop-up menu not the loading of
>  an instruments.

Oh goodness fucking gracious!   I suggested something that *might have 
not helped* the shame the shame.  Such is my remorse that without 
further ado I am going to remove my shoes and stockings, scamper to the 
nearest throw rug and hurl myself off of it onto the cold waxed floor!  
Woe is me, woe is me....

But anyway the thing is you did not specify the circumstances under 
which you were seeing the problem until down the line.

If I recall after much tooth extraction procedure you finally stated 
that the actual condition that produced the problem for you was to have 
tens of thousands of patches in the menu.

If 7.0 deals with that condition less gracefully than 6.xx that is 
indeed unfortunate.  I am however not seeing the problem here, but then 
I think I have only about 5.000 patches in my library.

BTW I don't know *why* 7 would be slower for but it may actually still 
help to use the redmatica EXS manager.

>  And then there is some more stuff but frankly I find I'm getting 
> childish.

no comment.



Again I have never suggested 7.0 or 7.0.1 are completely bug free, I 
know of no one who has.   But I will stand by the statement that 7.0 
and especially 7.0.1 are as near as I can tell more debugged as any 
logic version I have ever encountered, and I have been with the program 
since notator/logic 1.7.  The assertion that programs this expensive 
should be expected to be bug free is a nice thought though in the cases 
of programs this complex is pretty much completely out of touch with 
reality.  There are exceptions to this rule like for example I would 
say adobe Photoshop is an exception but it is vastly more popular 
program and has been being developed longer by a much larger 
development team.

For just one example of about the worst bug I can imagine in prior 
versions of Logic I had horrible problems in every version right up to 
the last one before 7.0 with not being able to open certain songs at 
all.  In 7.0 it has not happened to me yet except for once when a beta 
of a 3rd party plugin was corrupting songs, but that was not Logic's 
fault.

Is 7.0 perfect? No.  Better?   Definitely.

If you want to whine about something real here is one that you can 
dependably verify and the steps to do it:

Install a UAD-1 Demo plugin, open a song with one of the audio files 
missing, so that the UAD-1 demo dialog and the search for missing file 
dialog appear at the same time.  Now you can click OK until doomsday 
and you will not get any further, and the only way you will ever be 
able to open that song is by taking the UAD - 1 component out of the 
components folder first.  Is it apple's fault, probably I am told it 
has something to do with poor cocoa implementation.

Do I like this.  No.  Does it stop me from using 7.xx.  No.

Or a few days ago for reasons that I never was able to figure out Logic 
started crashing in the middle of a session with a singer that happened 
to be very important for me.

I never was able to figure out what happened.  Do I like that?  No?   
Will it make me go back to 6.xx or whine about the sky falling?  No.  
Why not?  Various reasons, for one thing I have not been able to 
reproduce the bug for another thing because the onset of Altzheimer's 
is still a few more years off my memory is intact enough that I can 
easily recall that I had more and worse problems back in "the day" when 
I was using 6.xx.