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using icc profiles in photoshop

using icc profiles in photoshop

2015-10-18 by nico.bouquet@...

Hello,


I successfully created some icc profiles with QTR. Details :


PC win 7 x64 + colormunki + epson 3880


The QTR ICC profiles are 5ko.

The other (color) ICC profiles generated with the "standard" software suite are 2311ko, I am surprised by the difference.


I installed the generated ICC profile (right click / install). I can see it in photoshop when softproofing.


**BUT** it doesn't appear in the printer profile listbox. I can see all "custom" profiles (generated for the screen calibration or RGB prints calibration) except those generated with QTR.


Any idea ?

Thank you

Re: using icc profiles in photoshop

2015-10-19 by brian_downunda@...

Because the QTR-generated profiles are greyscale only, they're smaller, or at least that's my understanding.

The profiles you generated don't appear in the printer profile list box, because they're greyscale (single channel) profiles and the printer presents as an RGB printer to Photoshop, so Photoshop doesn't list them because they're not relevant / applicable.

You can use QTR to generate monochrome RGB profiles, using QTR-Create-ICC-RGB.exe, and these will show in that dialog, but what's the point? Unlike on Mac OS X, you can't print from Photoshop direct to QTR. You have to save the image as a TIFF (JPG also works in recent versions of QTR), and then print using QTRGui. So the fact that the greyscale profiles don't appear in that dialog is not really relevant, because you don't print that way.

[Note 1: On Mac OS X, while you can print direct from Photoshop to QTR, you shouldn't, but since you're on Win that's not really relevant.

[Note 2: It's possible that you're trying to use a QTR-generated ICC profile to print using ABW, if that's the case, it raises a whole separate set of workflow issues.]


---In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, <nico.bouquet@...> wrote :

Hello,


I successfully created some icc profiles with QTR. Details :


PC win 7 x64 + colormunki + epson 3880


The QTR ICC profiles are 5ko.

The other (color) ICC profiles generated with the "standard" software suite are 2311ko, I am surprised by the difference.


I installed the generated ICC profile (right click / install). I can see it in photoshop when softproofing.


**BUT** it doesn't appear in the printer profile listbox. I can see all "custom" profiles (generated for the screen calibration or RGB prints calibration) except those generated with QTR.


Any idea ?

Thank you

Re: using icc profiles in photoshop

2015-10-19 by nico.bouquet@...

1- You're right, I just tried with QTR-Create-ICC-RGB.exe and I can now see the icc in the listbox.

2- I'm effectively trying to "use a QTR-generated ICC profile to print using ABW", but I was hoping that it will not "raises a whole separate set of workflow issues" ;)

Re: using icc profiles in photoshop

2015-10-19 by brian_downunda@...

There are two workflow issues, in my view.

1. How you you configure Photoshop? The most obvious way is to set "Printer Manages Colours". However, I have recently discovered (others may have known this for longer), that in recent versions of Photoshop (CS5 or later), if you print like this and the image has an embedded profile, then Photoshop silently does a conversion to sRGB. This is not what you want. I discovered this reading a few recent threads on The Online Photographer. For the most detailed discussion see this thread:
http://theonlinephotographer.typepad.com/the_online_photographer/2015/10/photoshop-vs-printer-managed-color-printing.html

It's primarily about colour rather than B&W, but if you read the comments section there's a lot about the "Printer Manages Colours" issue.


There are several workarounds. One mentioned and debated in that thread is to set the printer profile to be the document profile, which I think was referred to as the null profile conversion method. Another is to print using Qimage, which allows you to set colour management off. I would add a third, which is to assign (not convert) the image to sRGB for printing purposes. This will "fool" Photoshop into not performing any profile conversions, and since ABW ignores the profile, this seems to work in my testing.


There is also a question of how to print the 21x4 in order to measure it and then create the ICC without stumbling into this problem. Same solutions, more or less, but with a couple of extra twists.


2. The ICC profiles that those QTR supplementary ICC creation programs create are intended to be "perceptually linear". Search this forum for a discussion, but note especially this post by Roy Harrington:
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/QuadtoneRIP/conversations/messages/12538

My summary of what this means is that the profiles result in a good screen-to-print match. However they do so at the cost of blocking up the shadows and losing shadow detail. Even Roy effectively concedes this point in that post. So if you convert to these profiles, watch out for lost shadow detail. You may need to edit to prevent this.


There is another way to use these profiles that prevents this. You can choose not to convert to the ICC, and instead just use it for soft-proofing using the "preserve numbers" soft-proofing setting. This will enable you to see how the image will print as-is without conversion and allow you to edit to get the print you want without loss of shadow detail. This is the standard piezography workflow, and I've written a blog post about it if you're interested.


3. Since this is the QTR forum, I should ask why you're printing with ABW and not QTR? There seems to be a general consensus that QTR will give you better prints, and will avoid the problem of Photoshop's silent sRGB conversions. However if you have a desktop, non-Pro printer, you'll have to deal with the issue of microbanding in the first and last inch.

Re: using icc profiles in photoshop

2015-10-19 by brian_downunda@...

p.s. Although this will be obvious from that ToP thread, I should have mentioned that this silent sRGB conversion problem is only on Windows, not Mac OS X, which is why it's relevant to the OP.


---In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, <brian_downunda@...> wrote :

There are two workflow issues, in my view.

1. How you you configure Photoshop? The most obvious way is to set "Printer Manages Colours". However, I have recently discovered (others may have known this for longer), that in recent versions of Photoshop (CS5 or later), if you print like this and the image has an embedded profile, then Photoshop silently does a conversion to sRGB. This is not what you want.

Re: using icc profiles in photoshop

2015-10-20 by yg_1@...

I use QTR profiles and PS all the time for B&W

My largest printer is a Canon iPF8300, so QTR is only relevant for making correction profiles and printing in Canon's B&W print mode (ABW on Epsons). So, whilst not using QTR for print, it's still an important part of my B&W workflow

When I have a file to print I'll convert to the QTR profile and then assign A98 or some other gamma 2.2 space to the file, and then print via the Canon PS plugin (where I can also adjust tint to allow for viewing lighting)

To be honest, soft proofing has very little part in my B&W print workflow. Knowing how my standard B&W test print looks on a paper, along with a good monitor and linearising profile gives me more than enough info to know how a print will look. The test print has a 51 step wedge in it for making the linearising profiles (rgb versions)

Test image for black and white printing


The only real guesswork comes in deciding whether to apply a 'lighten' curve to the file before printing, if I know it's going to be displayed in dim lighting - but even that can be quantified to some extent with three versions of my test print on the same paper, with curves applied, and checked on location. Of course, the extra effort for this means it has to be a particularly well paying job ;-)

Re: using icc profiles in photoshop

2015-10-20 by brian_downunda@...

Not sure how a Canon workflow helps the OP who has an Epson 3880. I assume the Canon plugin would avoid the silent sRGB conversion by Photoshop on Windows.

The role of soft-proofing has been hotly debated recently elsewhere, especially that recent debate between C'tein in one corner and Andrew Rodney plus Mark H. McCormick-Goodhart in the other. I'm definitely in the pro-soft-proofing corner. No-one is saying that it isn't the print that counts, just that a fully functioning soft-proofing setup will get you there faster and with less waste. Not all jobs are well paying. YMMV.

Re: using icc profiles in photoshop

2015-10-21 by yg_1@...

I was more addressing the brief earlier mention of using the profiles without printing via QTR as perhaps not being relevant here...

Soft proofing can be great for those that take the trouble to really understand it - it's just that a lot of people try to skip that bit and see it as a 'tech fix' to save on effort/understanding. I'm also minded to suggest that sometimes it's one of those things that tends to appeal more to those interested in process than content ;-)

As to less 'waste' - well I prefer to see that as part of the ongoing costs of honing my craft - YMMV ;-)


Re: using icc profiles in photoshop

2015-10-21 by brian_downunda@...

I didn't intend to create that impression. On the contrary. I don't do a lot of ABW printing (prefer QTR), but I wouldn't consider printing with ABW without having a QTR-generated profile, either for a preserve numbers soft-proof or for a regular soft proof and conversion to the profile at print time (noting my earlier comments about shadow detail). I don't find ABW to be all that consistent in its linearity from printer to printer, and so the QTR profiles are essential in my view in order to see what's happening and to be able to control it predictably. They may not be essential to people who, through a process of trial and error and much experience, have a very good feel for how their printer will render an image. But it takes time to get to that point, and in my view, a soft-proof can still help, even when you do.

The comment about relevance was in relation to Photoshop, and why it doesn't display the greyscale profiles created by QTR-Create-ICC.exe in the printer profile list box. This is at the stage when you're going to print, not in the soft-proofing dialog. Photoshop doesn't consider them relevant (pardon the anthropomorphism) for a RGB printer. It will show the RGB versions that QTR-Create-ICC-RGB.exe creates.

Waste can't be avoided, but I prefer to minimise it.



---In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, <yg_1@...> wrote :

I was more addressing the brief earlier mention of using the profiles without printing via QTR as perhaps not being relevant here...

<snip>

As to less 'waste' - well I prefer to see that as part of the ongoing costs of honing my craft - YMMV ;-)


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