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Does the I1Pro and the i1 Profiler handle multiple readings?

Does the I1Pro and the i1 Profiler handle multiple readings?

2016-02-11 by michael.mutmansky@...

Folks, I have a new i1Pro2 here, and have tried it for linearization... It seems too work great for that, so everything is good.


However, I am making digital negatives for pt/pd printing, and because of the surface of the paper and the inconsistency inherent with hand-coated paper, I want to be able to make a print with multiple step tablets on it and read them from different locations on the paper to ensure I'm not building in a jiggy in the Lin curve because of a coating anomaly.


Can i1 Profiler do this? It's not clear to me how I can do that.


I was thinking that I could define a profile that has three or four tablets in it with the same value (0 to 100), and then read them all. As long as Profiler has the intelligence to average these readings, everything will happen quickly.


If I can't do that, I'll have to manually collect the L values and average them, and then put them back in the output file to run the Lin curve.


My thought is that it may make sense to do this manually anyway, even though it takes a lot more time because I can then manually adjust any L values that may appear to be anomalous.



Thanks,



---Michael

Re: Does the I1Pro and the i1 Profiler handle multiple readings?

2016-02-11 by ozwille@...

Hello Michael,

Creating a Profiler test chart with multiple repetitions of the patch set would enable you to measure multiple copies of the step chart into one text file, however Profiler will not average the data in the measurement file; that's not its job. Profiler will only average multiple measurement files when you make a profile within Profiler, not what you need to do.

I've dealt with the exact issue you describe by measuring multiple charts in Profiler and then processing them through BasICColor IMProve. IMProve will average redundant patches, correct errors, smooth the curve, and average multiple measurement files into one file. I do the same thing to the measurement files when making a grayscale ICC profile with QTR. The results have been excellent.

The down side is IMProve is stupidly expensive (the Germans are VERY proud of their software). I believe you can still download IMProve from BasICColor's web site and get a 2 week fully functional demo by registering on the web site.

There may be other s/w on the market to do this, but I've never had an opportunity to try anything else.

By the way, BasICColor makes the only monitor calibration/profiling s/w I've found that allows you to calibrate the monitor to L* instead of gamma. That's a much better fit to QTR than using the archaic gamma settings in other monitor s/w.

good luck

Re: Does the I1Pro and the i1 Profiler handle multiple readings?

2016-02-12 by michael.mutmansky@...

Thanks for the info. I suspected it didn't do it, so I'll develop a spreadsheet to run the values. No big deal, and it will give me the chance to actually make subtle adjustments to the curve anyway, which I see as a good second pass adjustment.


---Michael

Re: Does the I1Pro and the i1 Profiler handle multiple readings?

2016-02-12 by richard@...

Take a look at this post here: http://www.bwmastery.com/blog/2015/new-and-improved-i1-profiler-workflow-for-quadtonerip

You can define the chart structure just by changing the number of patching in the rows and columns, then using QTR linearize-data, you can parse the measurement file and it will average the readings for you.

When I do this for the 21x4 I can measure the standard 21 step target (not the 21x4 random or 21-step random) 4 times and then run the measurement file through the qtr linearize data app and it will spit out the graph, averaged Lab, and density measurements that you can plug into whatever you might need the averaged measurements for. This is what I do for the the 51-step target now too. It is 3 rows of 17, so I define the measurement chart in i1 profiler as 9 rows of 17 columns. I measure the whole chart once, then go back to the top and measure it again 2 more times.

Hope that helps,
Richard Boutwell

Re: [QuadtoneRIP] Re: Does the I1Pro and the i1 Profiler handle multiple readings?

2016-02-12 by a3rm

Thanks very much Richard, very intresting.

       Alex


On 2016-02-12 8:50 AM, richard@... [QuadtoneRIP] wrote:
>
> Take a look at this post here: 
> http://www.bwmastery.com/blog/2015/new-and-improved-i1-profiler-workflow-for-quadtonerip
>
> You can define the chart structure just by changing the number of 
> patching in the rows and columns, then using QTR linearize-data, you 
> can parse the measurement file and it will average the readings for you.
>
> When I do this for the 21x4 I can measure the standard 21 step target 
> (not the 21x4 random or 21-step random) 4 times and then run the 
> measurement file through the qtr linearize data app and it will spit 
> out the graph, averaged Lab, and density measurements that you can 
> plug into whatever you might need the averaged measurements for. This 
> is what I do for the the 51-step target now too. It is 3 rows of 17, 
> so I define the measurement chart in i1 profiler as 9 rows of 17 
> columns. I measure the whole chart once, then go back to the top and 
> measure it again 2 more times.
>
> Hope that helps,
> Richard Boutwell
>
> 



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Re: Does the I1Pro and the i1 Profiler handle multiple readings?

2016-02-15 by michael.mutmansky@...

Richard,


Are you sure it is averaging the data? I suppose it can be tested so if you have verified that the linearize tool is doing that, then everything is great. I wouldn't want to do this and presume it is averaging and have it actually be pulling the first or the last values only.

Thanks for the link... I had seen that, but as I said, I am concerned whether the values are actually averaged, so I felt that it was worth asking the learned group here.


---Michael


Re: Does the I1Pro and the i1 Profiler handle multiple readings?

2016-02-15 by richard@...

Its definitely averaging the measurement data. I don't know how how it knows what order they are in, especially when they are in the 21x4 random order but it works all the time, and with any format the measurement files are in—even if the location data isn't included in the measurement file, like the color port or spyderprint measurement files (I suspect it is some regular expression voodoo). I tested real quick with measurement of a single pass of a 21 step target and three passes of the same target (defining the chart structure as 3-rows 21-columns) and then ran the resulting files through QTR-linearize-datah. Here are the linearize= strings: The first one is just the two decimal place single reading and the second one shows the division by three (repeated 3s... and repeated 6s).

21x1:
LINEARIZE="98.33 94.25 90.31 86.27 82.19 78.36 74.29 70.25 66.08 62.28 58.03 53.99 50.02 45.92 42.07 37.65 33.62 29.5 25.71 21.55 17.8"

21x3:
LINEARIZE="98.3866666666667 94.2433333333333 90.32 86.3133333333333 82.2333333333333 78.39 74.2833333333333 70.2533333333333 66.11 62.2766666666667 58.0533333333333 53.95 49.9666666666667 45.8766666666667 42.05 37.5866666666667 33.5666666666667 29.4266666666667 25.68 21.5 17.72

Outside of the 51x3 target I use for relinearizing with my own system, I don't generally measure things three times because you get those long sets of repeated threes and sixes when dividing by three. it is easy enough the measure the 21 step target one more time, but measuring three additional rows to get to 51x4 can add up overtime (plus I would need to reformat a bunch of my own stuff that already uses the 51x3 charts.

Richard Boutwell



Re: Does the I1Pro and the i1 Profiler handle multiple readings?

2016-02-16 by michael.mutmansky@...

Great. It sounds like you tested it the way I would have done to confirm. That makes things easier.

I guess we'll see if taking them in directly without nudging an errant reading or two is better then putting the time in to ensure that the linearize tool will not cook in a few odd readings. I guess by averaging, you gain the benefit that hopefully, the readings will only be errant in a few places, and that a real inconsistency will then be removed.

Since this is for a digital negative, there is less certainty that the print won't have a few steps that are paper white or max black... does the linearize and iProfiler appear to recognize when there are multiple wedges with nearly identical values?

The reason I ask is that the newer step charts don't have the dividers between the values that the old ones had, and I'm wondering if that is going to produce trouble.


---Michael

Re: Does the I1Pro and the i1 Profiler handle multiple readings?

2016-02-17 by richard@...

I might need to correct myself about the auto averaging the measurement data. I just making a RGB icc with a 51x4 measurement file and it didn't respond as expected. It averaged the chart, but only output the 0, 20, 60, 80, and 100 patches (and I doubt they are the correct values)

I wonder if Roy can comment definitively about what the script is doing with the measurement files. 

RB

Re: [QuadtoneRIP] Re: Does the I1Pro and the i1 Profiler handle multiple readings?

2016-02-23 by Roy Harrington

The script does average patches. If there is a ";gray" column it knows what to average.
If no gray column it makes various guesses based on total number of patches, and sorting values.
It's pretty good but not perfect -- so always see if its what you expect. Your 51x4 makes a
bum guess -- 204 -> it tries (34 patches of 6 step) before (4 patches of 51 step).
It tries these step wedges in order: 21, 11, 6, 26, 51, 16

I usually think the midsize ones do the best for smoothness -- hence 21x4

Roy

Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Wed, Feb 17, 2016 at 10:50 AM, richard@... [QuadtoneRIP] <QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
I might need to correct myself about the auto averaging the measurement data. I just making a RGB icc with a 51x4 measurement file and it didn't respond as expected. It averaged the chart, but only output the 0, 20, 60, 80, and 100 patches (and I doubt they are the correct values)

I wonder if Roy can comment definitively about what the script is doing with the measurement files.

RB

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Posted by: richard@...
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--
Roy Harrington
roy@...
www.harrington.com

Re: Does the I1Pro and the i1 Profiler handle multiple readings?

2016-02-25 by michael.mutmansky@...

Thanks Roy.

That would be consistent with what I saw, which was that it appeared to do a curve with 0, 20, 40, 60, 80,100 positions.

I made a spreadsheet to do it manually.

Anyway, after some testing, it's pretty clear that this process is difficult for alternative process negatives because the prints are relatively low contrast. That seems to cause some trouble with getting consistent readings.

I'll work on some more things with this, but I may have to go back to the reflection densitometer to do this more accurately.


I'll post with some results once I have done a few more tests.

---Michael

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