QTR-Quadtone RIP

I raised this question on the B&W inkjet Group, should do it here as 
well ...

A particular file/image is distinctly sharper with black-only (Epson 
2200 driver) than literal same file/image with QTR (2.3.10), printed 
to the same size.  

Someone on the B&W inkjet group suggested that QTR may *lack* a 
sharpening application that may be hidden in the Epson driver. 

I've never heard of a hidden sharpener in Epson, but they do exist in 
digicams. He suggested I add extra sharpening to a file intended for 
QTR, Vs the file that's already good for black-only.

That helps, though my first efforts make the sharpening obvious in 
close inspection.

** Has anybody else noticed a sharpness issue with QTR Vs Epson? or 
other drivers? 

** Do you use any special sharpening workflow/technique/tool for files 
destined for QTR, as opposed to files destined for other drivers (such 
as Epsons for color or black-only)?

djon43 wrote:

> I raised this question on the B&W inkjet Group, should do it here as
> well ...
>
> A particular file/image is distinctly sharper with black-only (Epson
> 2200 driver) than literal same file/image with QTR (2.3.10), printed
> to the same size. 
>
> Someone on the B&W inkjet group suggested that QTR may *lack* a
> sharpening application that may be hidden in the Epson driver.
>
> I've never heard of a hidden sharpener in Epson, but they do exist in
> digicams. He suggested I add extra sharpening to a file intended for
> QTR, Vs the file that's already good for black-only.
>
> That helps, though my first efforts make the sharpening obvious in
> close inspection.
>
> ** Has anybody else noticed a sharpness issue with QTR Vs Epson? or
> other drivers?
>
> ** Do you use any special sharpening workflow/technique/tool for files
> destined for QTR, as opposed to files destined for other drivers (such
> as Epsons for color or black-only)?
>
>
Hallo,

i can confirm your observation. I had the same impression comparing QTR 
and BlackOnly, but i think you cannot directly compare QTR and BlackOnly 
- it is comparing apples and pears as we say in germany. QTR is much 
smoother than BlackOnly which has a kind of more local contrast (as 
anyone said some weeks ago), therefore it looks sharper. Thus i\ufffdm not 
sure, whether QTR is really not as sharp as BlackOnly. I sometimes try 
to solve this issue with Qimage, but i never made systematical tests to 
find out if it is only a impression or really a difference between the 
different methods to print Black & White Images.

Regards

Rainer

Rainer,  I've just made test prints using Epson's "sharpen" filter,
got no improvement, and "more sharpen" , got sharpness rivaling
Black-Only except for intolerable jaggies in 2mm-wide edge highlights
(lines that should be almost white). Extra USM accomplished nothing. 

Careful use of "smart sharpen" on shadows produced sharpness that
almost rivals Black-Only...more "smart sharpen" of shadows starts to
produce halos. I've never found "smart sharpen" useful before, but it
looks like a good idea here...I'll explore it further.

I don't like sharpening in post-processing and again for a particular
printer driver (QTR). Maybe I'll start doing zero sharpening on the
original file until I know how I want to print...different sharpening
for Black-Only and QTR...

A mystery. 


--- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, Rainer Taube <rainer@t...> wrote:
>
> djon43 wrote:
> 
> > I raised this question on the B&W inkjet Group, should do it here as
> > well ...
> >
> > A particular file/image is distinctly sharper with black-only (Epson
> > 2200 driver) than literal same file/image with QTR (2.3.10), printed
> > to the same size. 
> >
> > Someone on the B&W inkjet group suggested that QTR may *lack* a
> > sharpening application that may be hidden in the Epson driver.
> >
> > I've never heard of a hidden sharpener in Epson, but they do exist in
> > digicams. He suggested I add extra sharpening to a file intended for
> > QTR, Vs the file that's already good for black-only.
> >
> > That helps, though my first efforts make the sharpening obvious in
> > close inspection.
> >
> > ** Has anybody else noticed a sharpness issue with QTR Vs Epson? or
> > other drivers?
> >
> > ** Do you use any special sharpening workflow/technique/tool for files
> > destined for QTR, as opposed to files destined for other drivers (such
> > as Epsons for color or black-only)?
> >
> >
> Hallo,
> 
> i can confirm your observation. I had the same impression comparing QTR 
> and BlackOnly, but i think you cannot directly compare QTR and
BlackOnly 

> - it is comparing apples and pears as we say in germany. QTR is much 
> smoother than BlackOnly which has a kind of more local contrast (as 
> anyone said some weeks ago), therefore it looks sharper. Thus i´m not 
> sure, whether QTR is really not as sharp as BlackOnly. I sometimes try 
> to solve this issue with Qimage, but i never made systematical tests to 
> find out if it is only a impression or really a difference between the 
> different methods to print Black & White Images.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Rainer
>

--- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "djon43" <djon43@y...> wrote:
>
> I raised this question on the B&W inkjet Group, should do it here as 
> well ...
> 
> A particular file/image is distinctly sharper with black-only (Epson 
> 2200 driver) than literal same file/image with QTR (2.3.10), printed 
> to the same size.  

I don't know exactly what you are seeing, but I wonder if it is just a matter of having
gray inks as well as the black ink.  In BO the dark black dots against the white paper
may give the appearance of "sharpness" where QTR would appear smoother because
of the more gradual transitions.  Sharpening before printing with QTR may have some
of the same effect.   Back in the film/darkroom days grainy films often looked sharper
that a fine grained film for the same reason.

> 
> Someone on the B&W inkjet group suggested that QTR may *lack* a 
> sharpening application that may be hidden in the Epson driver. 

I don't know what the Epson driver does but QTR certainly does not add sharpening
during the printing.

> 
> I've never heard of a hidden sharpener in Epson, but they do exist in 
> digicams. He suggested I add extra sharpening to a file intended for 
> QTR, Vs the file that's already good for black-only.

Sharpening will enhance the local contrast which means the transition will appear
sharper.  I think a small amount of sharpening is ideal for both scanning and printing
to overcome the inherent sampling or re-sampling that happens.

> 
> That helps, though my first efforts make the sharpening obvious in 
> close inspection.
> 
> ** Has anybody else noticed a sharpness issue with QTR Vs Epson? or 
> other drivers? 
> 
> ** Do you use any special sharpening workflow/technique/tool for files 
> destined for QTR, as opposed to files destined for other drivers (such 
> as Epsons for color or black-only)?

For any output workflow I think its appropriate to find what level of sharpening best
suits the image and your desires.  To me the level is just below it where you can
consciously see it.

>

Roy

Roy, I'm looking at a 10" print of two dumpsters full of bottles and
cans, with stickers and grafitti on the outside, trash on the ground etc. 

With QTR at 1440 and at 2880 the QTR trash is significantly less
legible than the black only at 1440 (someone suggested I try 2880, so
I did, but from experience I know nothing good happens above 1440).

With black-only at 1440 the trash is more legible, edges are sharper. 

This is a demanding image because there's so much that SHOULD look
sharp and legible, and much is right at the edge of what 35mm can do
(this is Tmax 100 in Rodinal 1:50...some kind of ultimate).

QTR rivals black-only when I apply a little "smart sharpen" to its 
shadows. I hate doing that much sharpening and I've always found
"smart sharpen" inferior to USM in color...it attempts too much. 

I do always sharpen scans, typically with minimal USM (eg 2/3/50)

In this case, with QTR when I apply more than usual USM (to avoid
smart sharpen) I get more sharpening artifacts. When I apply "more
sharpen" (edge) I can get an impression of more sharpness but the
slightest amount produces artifacts in fine near-white lines, which
develop jaggies. Smart sharpen helps. 

With most images this difference would be less evident...I've not
noticed it with my own...but this demanding image raises a question. 

Sharpening is properly the last step anyway, so if I want something
distinctively toned it looks like I'll need to sharpen differently
than if I want maximum sharpness. My master file will need to be
unsharpened and I'll may want a QTR and a black-only file for each. 



--- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "Roy Harrington" <roy@h...> wrote:
>
> --- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "djon43" <djon43@y...> wrote:
> >
> > I raised this question on the B&W inkjet Group, should do it here as 
> > well ...
> > 
> > A particular file/image is distinctly sharper with black-only (Epson 
> > 2200 driver) than literal same file/image with QTR (2.3.10), printed 
> > to the same size.  
> 
> I don't know exactly what you are seeing, but I wonder if it is just
a matter of having
> gray inks as well as the black ink.  In BO the dark black dots
against the white paper
> may give the appearance of "sharpness" where QTR would appear
smoother because
> of the more gradual transitions.  Sharpening before printing with
QTR may have some
> of the same effect.   Back in the film/darkroom days grainy films
often looked sharper
> that a fine grained film for the same reason.

Yes, I used to prefer 8X10 sheet film and 35mm 2475 recording film for
that reason, didn't like much in between :-) 

"Sharpness" has always been a visual judgement call, different from
resolution. In this case, it appears that QTR needs more work than
does black only to get comparable sharpness.

Hi,
I've been using QTR for a while and finally got around to paying for it - sorry for the delay, Roy.

I've been using the supplied EEM curves for both EEM and Photo Rag (the only two papers I use) and wondered how or where I could obtain curves for Photo Rag.

thanks,
Richard
--
http://smallfield.vze.com
http://photos.smallfield.vze.com


   "What wisdom can you find that is greater than kindness?"
   --Jean Jacques Rousseau, philosopher and author (1712-1778)