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Calculating Ideal Density

Calculating Ideal Density

2017-01-29 by gheim5@...

Hi all,


I am wondering how the "ideal density" is calculated for (e.g. 21) greyscale steps. I understand that the density is the log of the reciprocal of reflection...


Let's assume the following


Relative reflection density:

Paper white: 0.00D

Maximum black: 1.68D


My assumptions/calculations


This translates into a relative reflection (via 1/10^density) of:

Paper white: 100%

Maximum black: 2.09%


From what I have read "linearization" means that each step of a wedge (same spacing throughout) has the same change in (relative) reflection?


For the above example and a 21 step printout, the change in relative reflection from one patch to the next would be 4.90% (delta=(1-0.0209)/20); or ideal reflection (IR):


Step IR

0 100.00%

5 95.10%

10 90.21%

15 85.31%

20 80.42%

25 75.52%

30 70.63%

35 65.73%

40 60.84%

45 55.94%

50 51.04%

55 46.15%

60 41.25%

65 36.36%

70 31.46%

75 26.57%

80 21.67%

85 16.78%

90 11.88%

95 6.98%

100 2.09%


If I derive densities (second column, My) for all patches from the above assumption (via -LOG10(reflectance)) I end up with the following (third column, ID = stated in ideal_density.pdf that accompanies QTR). There is quite a discrepancy between my results and those given in the PDF).


Step My ID

0 0.000 0.000

5 0.022 0.048

10 0.045 0.098

15 0.069 0.150

20 0.095 0.204

25 0.122 0.260

30 0.151 0.319

35 0.182 0.381

40 0.216 0.446

45 0.252 0.514

50 0.292 0.586

55 0.336 0.662

60 0.385 0.743

65 0.439 0.830

70 0.502 0.922

75 0.576 1.021

80 0.664 1.129

85 0.775 1.247

90 0.025 1.376

95 1.156 1.519

100 1.680 1.680


Question


Where is the mistake with my thinking/calculation?


Unfortunately, none of the documents provide insight into their calculations. The same applies for the "checking your linearization" Excel-file:


Checking your linearization


BTW: The linked Excel-file shows "ideal" density values (in pink). If you copy them to the yellow cells (actual values), the actual curves deviates quite severely from the pink (ideal) curve. A mistake?


I'd highly appreciate if you could shed light on this topic.


Thanks in advance.

Re: Calculating Ideal Density

2017-01-30 by richard@...

The short answer is that the ideal densities are being calculated from the Linear Lab L* values. That requires one additional conversion from reflectance percentage to XYZ_Y to Lab_L to calculate the ideal linear densities for each 5% step.

Here is a dropbox link to a spreadsheet tool I made a while back that does that conversion for you: The formulas are


I converted the densities from your post to Lab L* and pasted them below. If you graph them you'll see that the ideal one from the ideal density PDF is a straight line, and yours is a curved line (that would print too light compared to the QTR Linear Standard).

Step My ID 0 100 100 5 98.05771213 95.80416674 10 96.06190196 91.5948099 15 94.01654174 87.38510882 20 91.84284155 83.18773869 25 89.6309833 79.01481401 30 87.30578826 74.808114 35 84.8768059 70.58805598 40 82.27838004 66.37422138 45 79.60002134 62.1852188 50 76.70958903 57.9817595 55 73.63094787 53.78969857 60 70.32262847 49.58300658 65 66.81798427 45.34671649 70 62.90865773 41.16426922 75 58.55177521 36.98154954 80 53.68264961 32.76684459 85 47.99184854 28.54421631 90 41.03279505 24.34514889 95 31.76663589 20.15136133 100 15.94905296 15.94905296


Hope that helps,
Richard Boutwell

http://www.richardboutwell.com/




Re: Calculating Ideal Density

2017-01-30 by gheim5@...

Richard, thanks a lot! I'll take a look into this topic. Your table helps a lot.

Can you recommend literature that makes reflectance, density, LAB, tristimulus, etc. and the corresponding calculations more accessible?

Re: [QuadtoneRIP] Re: Calculating Ideal Density

2017-01-31 by Roy Harrington

There's lots of literature online -- wiki is a good start.
Also this site is well-known: http://www.brucelindbloom.com

Richard mentions some of the terminology used.
The L of LAB is called Luminosity --- this is the unit linearized by QTR driver.
Then Y of XYZ is called Luminance -- corresponds to your reflectance.

Google/Wiki CIELAB, CIEXYZ for formulas.

Roy

Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Mon, Jan 30, 2017 at 1:43 PM, gheim5@... [QuadtoneRIP] <QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


Richard, thanks a lot! I'll take a look into this topic. Your table helps a lot.

Can you recommend literature that makes reflectance, density, LAB, tristimulus, etc. and the corresponding calculations more accessible?





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Re: [QuadtoneRIP] Calculating Ideal Density

2017-01-31 by Keith Schreiber

Hi Roy,

Until recently I was also under the impression that L stands for Luminosity, but every reference I can find now says it stands for Lightness. Thought you might be interested. 

Cheers,
Keith

Keith Schreiber
jkschreiber.com
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> On Jan 31, 2017, at 1:49 PM, Roy Harrington roy@...m [QuadtoneRIP] <QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
> 
> The L of LAB is called Luminosity --- this is the unit linearized by QTR driver.

Re: [QuadtoneRIP] Calculating Ideal Density

2017-01-31 by Roy Harrington

Hi Keith

Yes does seem that Lightness is the more accepted term.

(I'd swear Luminosity was used before. Seems to have been
usurped by the brain training program :)

Best,
Roy


Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Tue, Jan 31, 2017 at 1:13 PM, Keith Schreiber keith@... [QuadtoneRIP] <QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


Hi Roy,

Until recently I was also under the impression that L stands for Luminosity, but every reference I can find now says it stands for Lightness. Thought you might be interested.

Cheers,
Keith

Keith Schreiber




On Jan 31, 2017, at 1:49 PM, Roy Harrington roy@... [QuadtoneRIP] <QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

The L of LAB is called Luminosity --- this is the unit linearized by QTR driver.






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Re: [QuadtoneRIP] Calculating Ideal Density

2017-01-31 by Paul Roark

Personally, I think "Luminosity" is more in keeping with the language used in B&W photography (not to mention just seeming to have more gravitas). "Lab L" works.

Paul
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Tue, Jan 31, 2017 at 3:02 PM, Roy Harrington roy@... [QuadtoneRIP] <QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Hi Keith

Yes does seem that Lightness is the more accepted term.

(I'd swear Luminosity was used before. Seems to have been
usurped by the brain training program :)

Best,
Roy



On Tue, Jan 31, 2017 at 1:13 PM, Keith Schreiber keith@... [QuadtoneRIP] <QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


Hi Roy,

Until recently I was also under the impression that L stands for Luminosity, but every reference I can find now says it stands for Lightness. Thought you might be interested.

Cheers,
Keith

Keith Schreiber




On Jan 31, 2017, at 1:49 PM, Roy Harrington roy@... [QuadtoneRIP] <QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

The L of LAB is called Luminosity --- this is the unit linearized by QTR driver.






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