QTR-Quadtone RIP

Hello, 
I've been trying to use QTR with my 7600, running on a G4/Panther(10.3.9) 
system. I dowloaded and installed QTR 2.3.5, and the grayspace profiles 
(gray-lab.icc, gray-matte.icc and gray-photo.icc), along with their RGB 
counterparts, were installed on the appropriate place, I think (/Library/
ColorSync/Profiles). However, they don't show up on PhotoShop (CS) "Color 
Settings" working spaces drop-down boxes, as I would expect, although they 
do show up on the "Print with Preview" print space drop-down box. What am I 
missing?
Thanks,
Paulo

Hello Paulo,

The icc profiles you mention are not used as working spaces directly,
as you would do with Adobe RGB or GG1.8 etc. Instead you convert to
the gray-lab.icc, do your editing of the image, and when ready to
print, convert to either the gray-matt.icc or the gray-photo.icc for
printing on matt or gloss papers. At least that was my initial
understanding of the process.

I personaly use the gray-matt.icc and gray-photo.icc for softproofing
via the View/custom menu in Photoshop while editing photos, and find
it unnecessary to first convert to gray-lab. I also have found that,
if GG1.8 is the normal working space for B&W work, my prints come out
identically regardless of whether or not they are converted to
gray-matt.icc or gray-photo.icc before printing. I don't know if this
is supposed to be that way or not but it has worked that way with both
a CRT monitor and LCD [both properly profiled]. 

I do continue to use softproofing with the two because I don't always
trust my eyes, as the room I use for working has multiple windows and
the lighting varies with the time of day. [Not the best, I know, but
the best I can do for the moment.] I also make a quick check of
highlight,midtone and shadow values before completing editing for the
same reason.

If anyone has issue with anything I have said above, feel free to
correct me.

Regards
Duane

--- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "Paulo Baptista"
<paulo.baptista@...> wrote:
>
> Hello, 
> I've been trying to use QTR with my 7600, running on a
G4/Panther(10.3.9) 
> system. I dowloaded and installed QTR 2.3.5, and the grayspace profiles 
> (gray-lab.icc, gray-matte.icc and gray-photo.icc), along with their RGB 
> counterparts, were installed on the appropriate place, I think
(/Library/
> ColorSync/Profiles). However, they don't show up on PhotoShop (CS)
"Color 
> Settings" working spaces drop-down boxes, as I would expect,
although they 
> do show up on the "Print with Preview" print space drop-down box.
What am I 

> missing?
> Thanks,
> Paulo
>

Hi Paulo,

In order to see these special spaces you need to turn the Advanced Mode 
ON in
the upper left corner of the Color Settings page.
It really only makes sense to use the Gray Lab and RGB Lab spaces for
working spaces.  The others should just be used in printing and 
soft-proofing.

Roy

On Tuesday, February 7, 2006, at 12:07  PM, Paulo Baptista wrote:

> Hello,
> I've been trying to use QTR with my 7600, running on a 
> G4/Panther(10.3.9)
> system. I dowloaded and installed QTR 2.3.5, and the grayspace profiles
> (gray-lab.icc, gray-matte.icc and gray-photo.icc), along with their RGB
> counterparts, were installed on the appropriate place, I think 
> (/Library/
> ColorSync/Profiles). However, they don't show up on PhotoShop (CS) 
> "Color
> Settings" working spaces drop-down boxes, as I would expect, although 
> they
> do show up on the "Print with Preview" print space drop-down box. What 
> am I
> missing?
> Thanks,
> Paulo
>
-
Roy Harrington
roy@...
Black & White Photo Gallery
http://www.harrington.com

Thanks Roy,
I knew I was missing something really basic. Regarding the use of these  
spaces, should they be used during the linearization of the profiles created? 
In that case, am I correct to assign the working space (QTR-Gray Lab) profile 
to the Step-21-gray.tif file with when I open it? And, accordingly, should I use 
"gray-photo paper" as the print space for printing (on Premium Luster) the 
step tablet?
Thank you, 
Paulo 

> Hi Paulo,
> 
> In order to see these special spaces you need to turn the Advanced Mode 
> ON in
> the upper left corner of the Color Settings page.
> It really only makes sense to use the Gray Lab and RGB Lab spaces for
> working spaces.  The others should just be used in printing and 
> soft-proofing.
> 
> Roy
> 
> On Tuesday, February 7, 2006, at 12:07  PM, Paulo Baptista wrote:
> 
> > Hello,
> > I've been trying to use QTR with my 7600, running on a 
> > G4/Panther(10.3.9)
> > system. I dowloaded and installed QTR 2.3.5, and the grayspace profiles
> > (gray-lab.icc, gray-matte.icc and gray-photo.icc), along with their RGB
> > counterparts, were installed on the appropriate place, I think 
> > (/Library/
> > ColorSync/Profiles). However, they don't show up on PhotoShop (CS) 
> > "Color
> > Settings" working spaces drop-down boxes, as I would expect, although 
> > they
> > do show up on the "Print with Preview" print space drop-down box. What 
> > am I
> > missing?
> > Thanks,
> > Paulo
> >
> -
> Roy Harrington
> roy@...
> Black & White Photo Gallery
> http://www.harrington.com
> 
> 
> 
>  
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> 
>  
> 
> 
>

Hi Paulo,

When you are printing a stepwedge for linearization or ICC profiling, no
color management should be used.   So don't assign or convert working 
spaces
and print with NO COLOR MANAGEMENT.  The idea is to pass "raw" stepwedge
data to the driver when printing for linearization or profiling.

Roy

On Thursday, February 9, 2006, at 08:40  AM, Paulo Baptista wrote:

> Thanks Roy,
> I knew I was missing something really basic. Regarding the use of these
> spaces, should they be used during the linearization of the profiles 
> created?
> In that case, am I correct to assign the working space (QTR-Gray Lab) 
> profile
> to the Step-21-gray.tif file with when I open it? And, accordingly, 
> should I use
> "gray-photo paper" as the print space for printing (on Premium Luster) 
> the
> step tablet?
> Thank you,
> Paulo
>
>> Hi Paulo,
>>
>> In order to see these special spaces you need to turn the Advanced 
>> Mode
>> ON in
>> the upper left corner of the Color Settings page.
>> It really only makes sense to use the Gray Lab and RGB Lab spaces for
>> working spaces.  The others should just be used in printing and
>> soft-proofing.
>>
>> Roy
>>
>> On Tuesday, February 7, 2006, at 12:07  PM, Paulo Baptista wrote:
>>
>>> Hello,
>>> I've been trying to use QTR with my 7600, running on a
>>> G4/Panther(10.3.9)
>>> system. I dowloaded and installed QTR 2.3.5, and the grayspace 
>>> profiles
>>> (gray-lab.icc, gray-matte.icc and gray-photo.icc), along with their 
>>> RGB
>>> counterparts, were installed on the appropriate place, I think
>>> (/Library/
>>> ColorSync/Profiles). However, they don't show up on PhotoShop (CS)
>>> "Color
>>> Settings" working spaces drop-down boxes, as I would expect, although
>>> they
>>> do show up on the "Print with Preview" print space drop-down box. 
>>> What
>>> am I
>>> missing?
>>> Thanks,
>>> Paulo
>>>
>> -
>> Roy Harrington
>> roy@...
>> Black & White Photo Gallery
>> http://www.harrington.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Yahoo! Groups Links
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
-
Roy Harrington
roy@...
Black & White Photo Gallery
http://www.harrington.com

Hi Roy,
Yes, I thought so, but on reading the "Mini-Tutorial on Curves" (which is 
available on the list's files section), I found the following, on the 
section that refers to linearization:  "In the Eye-One folder, open the 
Step-21-random.tif file file in Photoshop, with your gray working space set 
at QTR Gray Lab (...) In Print with preview, select QTR gray matte for 
print space(..)". That quote really confused me a lot, so
I thought I'd better ask the list for advice.
Thanks again,
Paulo

At 16:05 9/2/2006, you wrote:

>Hi Paulo,
>
>When you are printing a stepwedge for linearization or ICC profiling, no
>color management should be used.   So don't assign or convert working
>spaces
>and print with NO COLOR MANAGEMENT.  The idea is to pass "raw" stepwedge
>data to the driver when printing for linearization or profiling.
>
>Roy

Hi Duane,
thanks for the comments; I'm still trying to set up my QTR calibration 
workflow, therefore I haven't yet come to the point of editing and printing 
'real' images. But, if I understand it correctly, if you use QTR-Gray Lab 
as your working space in PS, when you open an image that has another 
profile assigned to it, you will be prompted to either use the attached 
profile or convert your images to the working space, which I think does the 
same job than opening your images in a "normal" working space (e.g. GG 1.8) 
and then converting them to QTR Gray Lab for editing, as you suggest. I 
believe the same applies to converting to gray-matte or gray-photo profiles 
prior to printing versus using these as printing spaces (in"Printing with 
Preview"). Am I right?
Best regards,
Paulo

At 18:03 8/2/2006, you wrote:

>Hello Paulo,
>
>The icc profiles you mention are not used as working spaces directly,
>as you would do with Adobe RGB or GG1.8 etc. Instead you convert to
>the gray-lab.icc, do your editing of the image, and when ready to
>print, convert to either the gray-matt.icc or the gray-photo.icc for
>printing on matt or gloss papers. At least that was my initial
>understanding of the process.
>
>I personaly use the gray-matt.icc and gray-photo.icc for softproofing
>via the View/custom menu in Photoshop while editing photos, and find
>it unnecessary to first convert to gray-lab. I also have found that,
>if GG1.8 is the normal working space for B&W work, my prints come out
>identically regardless of whether or not they are converted to
>gray-matt.icc or gray-photo.icc before printing. I don't know if this
>is supposed to be that way or not but it has worked that way with both
>a CRT monitor and LCD [both properly profiled].
>
>I do continue to use softproofing with the two because I don't always
>trust my eyes, as the room I use for working has multiple windows and
>the lighting varies with the time of day. [Not the best, I know, but
>the best I can do for the moment.] I also make a quick check of
>highlight,midtone and shadow values before completing editing for the
>same reason.
>
>If anyone has issue with anything I have said above, feel free to
>correct me.
>
>Regards
>Duane
>
>--- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "Paulo Baptista"
><paulo.baptista@...> wrote:
> >
> > Hello,
> > I've been trying to use QTR with my 7600, running on a
>G4/Panther(10.3.9)
> > system. I dowloaded and installed QTR 2.3.5, and the grayspace profiles
> > (gray-lab.icc, gray-matte.icc and gray-photo.icc), along with their RGB
> > counterparts, were installed on the appropriate place, I think
>(/Library/
> > ColorSync/Profiles). However, they don't show up on PhotoShop (CS)
>"Color
> > Settings" working spaces drop-down boxes, as I would expect,
>although they
> > do show up on the "Print with Preview" print space drop-down box.
>What am I
> > missing?
> > Thanks,
> > Paulo
> >

Hi Paulo,


--- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, Paulo Baptista
<paulo.baptista@...> wrote:
>
> But, if I understand it correctly, if you use QTR-Gray Lab 
> as your working space in PS, when you open an image that has another 
> profile assigned to it, you will be prompted to either use the attached 
> profile or convert your images to the working space, which I think
does the 
> same job than opening your images in a "normal" working space (e.g.
GG 1.8) 
> and then converting them to QTR Gray Lab for editing, as you suggest.


Yes, I believe that is correct.


> I 
> believe the same applies to converting to gray-matte or gray-photo
profiles 
> prior to printing versus using these as printing spaces (in"Printing
with 
> Preview"). Am I right?
> Best regards,
> Paulo
> 

 I think that they amount to the same actions although I don't know
that printing via the Epson driver using the matt.icc or photo.icc in
print preview would give the same result as would using QTR to do the
printing after converting to one or the other. It is my understanding
that the calibration that you do using QTR ends up linearising your
printer,inks and paper specifically for printing via QTR itself. You
are, in effect, controlling each jet of ink independently as opposed
to having the normal Epson print driver do it's own undocumented thing
with the jets. It is giving you full control over when,where and how
the different inks are distributed. There is a lot of power in that
approach. There can also be some learning required as to how best to
use that power.
Fortunately there are folks like Roy around to help us in doing that.

Regards
Duane

Hi Duane,

>  I think that they amount to the same actions although I don't know
>that printing via the Epson driver using the matt.icc or photo.icc in
>print preview would give the same result as would using QTR to do the
>printing after converting to one or the other.

I believe that when we select a print space in "Print with Preview" we're 
still in Photoshop (and therefore not yet using the printer's driver), and 
PS will then convert the file to the selected profile before sending it to 
the printer's driver (Epson or QTR/Gimp, in that case),  which (I think) 
amounts to the same effect than converting the image before going to "Print 
with Preview". So I think we can safely use the Print with Preview feature 
and still benefit from QTR's capabilities.

>Fortunately there are folks like Roy around to help us in doing that.

Absolutely!
Regards,
Paulo

Paulo.
With some thought on this, it occured to me that you are correct but
only under the circumstance that you were to use Roy's Create-ICC
program to make special profiles using the epson driver. That would
mean that you would need to make your own curves for each ink set and
paper and so on. Or use the profiles from someone else with the same
printer,inks and paper. You might look at Paul Roark's web site for
information on that process.
 I think it would only be by chance that you could use one of the
generic profiles such as Graymatt.icc directly with the Epson driver
and get acceptable prints. You can test this easily when you finish
calibrating QTR for one setup with your machine and ink and paper. If
you print the edited image both ways I believe you will see the
difference immediately.
 I know that it does not work that way with my setup as I am using a
variable tone inkset, and printing from the Epson driver via print
preview or by directly converting to the graymaatt.icc would give only
a single tone and will not be linearised the same way as QTR was
calibrated.

Regards
Duane


--- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, Paulo Baptista
<paulo.baptista@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Duane,
> 
> >  I think that they amount to the same actions although I don't know
> >that printing via the Epson driver using the matt.icc or photo.icc in
> >print preview would give the same result as would using QTR to do the
> >printing after converting to one or the other.
> 


> I believe that when we select a print space in "Print with Preview"
we're 
> still in Photoshop (and therefore not yet using the printer's
driver), and 
> PS will then convert the file to the selected profile before sending
it to 
> the printer's driver (Epson or QTR/Gimp, in that case),  which (I
think) 
> amounts to the same effect than converting the image before going to
"Print 
> with Preview". So I think we can safely use the Print with Preview
feature 

> and still benefit from QTR's capabilities.
> 

> Regards,
> Paulo
>

Duane,
thanks again. Sorry for the delay in answering, as I've been away from the 
studio for a few days.
I apologize if I didn't make myself clear on my first posts; I didn't mean 
to use the Epson driver instead of QTR. I was just saying that I didn't see 
(in theory, at least) any differences between converting an image to 
QTRgraymatte.icc or QTRgrayphoto.icc before going to Print with Preview or 
just selecting one of these profiles as Print Space on the Print with 
Preview options (since we'd be using Photoshop convertion algorithms on 
both situations), and then printing it using QTR.
Come to think of it, I work on a Macintosh, and QTR is integrated in the 
MacOS printing workflow as just another printer driver. I believe that if 
you happen to work on Windows you have to save the image as a .tif file and 
then open it in QTR, in which case it would be necessary to convert it to 
the desired profile, and Photoshop's Print with Preview options wouldn''t 
be used at all. Maybe that's the source of the confusion?
Regards,
Paulo


At 22:31 12/2/2006, you wrote:

>Paulo.
>With some thought on this, it occured to me that you are correct but
>only under the circumstance that you were to use Roy's Create-ICC
>program to make special profiles using the epson driver. That would
>mean that you would need to make your own curves for each ink set and
>paper and so on. Or use the profiles from someone else with the same
>printer,inks and paper. You might look at Paul Roark's web site for
>information on that process.
>  I think it would only be by chance that you could use one of the
>generic profiles such as Graymatt.icc directly with the Epson driver
>and get acceptable prints. You can test this easily when you finish
>calibrating QTR for one setup with your machine and ink and paper. If
>you print the edited image both ways I believe you will see the
>difference immediately.
>  I know that it does not work that way with my setup as I am using a
>variable tone inkset, and printing from the Epson driver via print
>preview or by directly converting to the graymaatt.icc would give only
>a single tone and will not be linearised the same way as QTR was
>calibrated.
>
>Regards
>Duane
>
>
>--- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, Paulo Baptista
><paulo.baptista@...> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Duane,
> >
> > >  I think that they amount to the same actions although I don't know
> > >that printing via the Epson driver using the matt.icc or photo.icc in
> > >print preview would give the same result as would using QTR to do the
> > >printing after converting to one or the other.
> >
>
>
> > I believe that when we select a print space in "Print with Preview"
>we're
> > still in Photoshop (and therefore not yet using the printer's
>driver), and
> > PS will then convert the file to the selected profile before sending
>it to
> > the printer's driver (Epson or QTR/Gimp, in that case),  which (I
>think)
> > amounts to the same effect than converting the image before going to
>"Print
> > with Preview". So I think we can safely use the Print with Preview
>feature
> > and still benefit from QTR's capabilities.
> >
>
> > Regards,
> > Paulo
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

Hi again Paulo.
Right you are. I had forgotten the difference in methods between the
two myself.

Best regards.
Duane


--- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, Paulo Baptista
<paulo.baptista@...> wrote:
>
> Duane,
> thanks again. Sorry for the delay in answering, as I've been away
from the 
> studio for a few days.
> I apologize if I didn't make myself clear on my first posts; I
didn't mean 
> to use the Epson driver instead of QTR. I was just saying that I
didn't see 
> (in theory, at least) any differences between converting an image to 
> QTRgraymatte.icc or QTRgrayphoto.icc before going to Print with
Preview or 
> just selecting one of these profiles as Print Space on the Print with 
> Preview options (since we'd be using Photoshop convertion algorithms on 
> both situations), and then printing it using QTR.
> Come to think of it, I work on a Macintosh, and QTR is integrated in
the 
> MacOS printing workflow as just another printer driver. I believe
that if 
> you happen to work on Windows you have to save the image as a .tif
file and 
> then open it in QTR, in which case it would be necessary to convert
it to 
> the desired profile, and Photoshop's Print with Preview options
wouldn''t 

> be used at all. Maybe that's the source of the confusion?
> Regards,
> Paulo
> 
>