QTR-Quadtone RIP

I have just begun using Harrington's software with piezographic ink on an Epson 
stylus2200. Does anyone know if the splittone K7 ink is agreeable with this system? Or is 
it just for Neutral K7 ink?

I'm using the NK7 splittone ink with QTR and everything works fine. The K7
neutral and sepia densities are the same, so you can mix and match these in
any combination you like, using the same settings in QTR.

Terry.

> adrian_eisenhower wrote:
> 
> I have just begun using Harrington's software with 
> piezographic ink on an Epson 
> stylus2200. Does anyone know if the splittone K7 ink is 
> agreeable with this system? Or is 
> it just for Neutral K7 ink?

Thanks Terry,
If you do not mind, what profiles do you use?
Best,
Adrian

>From: "Terry Ritz" <t.ritz@...>
>Reply-To: QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com
>To: <QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com>
>Subject: RE: [QuadtoneRIP] Splittone
>Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2006 20:38:31 -0600
>
>I'm using the NK7 splittone ink with QTR and everything works fine. The K7
>neutral and sepia densities are the same, so you can mix and match these in
>any combination you like, using the same settings in QTR.
>
>Terry.
>
> > adrian_eisenhower wrote:
> >
> > I have just begun using Harrington's software with
> > piezographic ink on an Epson
> > stylus2200. Does anyone know if the splittone K7 ink is
> > agreeable with this system? Or is
> > it just for Neutral K7 ink?
>

Sure. 

Select the Quad2000-NK7 printing model in QTR. Then, you'll be able to
access the NK7 curves in the Curve Setup section (as with any other curve).
I use Innova Soft Texture Art, so I use the NK7-2880-InnovaSoftTexArt curve.
This curve will work with any of the NK7 inks. If you need to download the
files, go here. . .

http://www.quadtonerip.com/html/QTRpiezobw.html

Detailed instructions for the NK7 inks and QTR are here. . .

http://www.inkjetmall.com/nk7support/k7-2200-guide.htm

All the best,

Terry.

> adrian eisenhower wrote:

> Thanks Terry,
> If you do not mind, what profiles do you use?
> Best,
> Adrian

It should be possible to add a splittone slider in QTR - 
QTRGui like there is a slider to make a mix between two 
choices over the entire ramp.

Is that ever considered  and is there a need for a split tone 
simply based on tone separation ?

It is of course already possible to make a split tone curve 
etc with one or two toners but that will be a fixed choice.

Ernst

                    --
           Ernst Dinkla


www.pigment-print.com
(         unvollendet         )

We are doing the split-tone over seven shades of ink rather than 3
shades of one tone and 3 shades another.

The split is caused by the inks which vary in tone as the densities
(or dilutions) of the inks move from black to the lightest gray. For
example shades 2,3,4 are Sepia and shades 5,6,7 are Neutral. Black is
shade 1.

The same curves in QTR will work with Neutral, Sepia, or SplitTone. So
the slider would not work as we are not mixing inks in the traditional
way that toning inks are used.

Hope that makes sense...

Jon Cone


--- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, Ernst Dinkla <E.Dinkla@...> wrote:

>
> It should be possible to add a splittone slider in QTR - 
> QTRGui like there is a slider to make a mix between two 
> choices over the entire ramp.
> 
> Is that ever considered  and is there a need for a split tone 
> simply based on tone separation ?
> 
> It is of course already possible to make a split tone curve 
> etc with one or two toners but that will be a fixed choice.
> 
> Ernst
> 
>                     --
>            Ernst Dinkla
> 
> 
> www.pigment-print.com
> (         unvollendet         )
>

Jon Cone wrote:
> We are doing the split-tone over seven shades of ink rather than 3
> shades of one tone and 3 shades another.
> 
> The split is caused by the inks which vary in tone as the densities
> (or dilutions) of the inks move from black to the lightest gray. For
> example shades 2,3,4 are Sepia and shades 5,6,7 are Neutral. Black is
> shade 1.
> 
> The same curves in QTR will work with Neutral, Sepia, or SplitTone. So
> the slider would not work as we are not mixing inks in the traditional
> way that toning inks are used.
> 
> Hope that makes sense...
> 
> Jon Cone

It was a suggestion for several other ink configurations that 
can be used with QTR.

It is to be expected that typical quad ink sets will be 
replaced by the new N-color printers that could use the split 
tone slider in QTR. Similar sliders are already in the OEM 
drivers of the new models so it may not be needed in QTR for 
the new models. Much depends on the underlying structure of 
the OEM drivers.

Ernst

                    --
           Ernst Dinkla


www.pigment-print.com
(         unvollendet         )

--- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, Ernst Dinkla <E.Dinkla@...> wrote:
>
> Jon Cone wrote:
> > ...So
> > the slider would not work as we are not mixing inks in the traditional
> > way that toning inks are used.
> > 
...
> 
> It was a suggestion for several other ink configurations that 
> can be used with QTR.
> 
> It is to be expected that typical quad ink sets will be 
> replaced by the new N-color printers

What constitues a typical quad ink set?

Also, given the capability of QTR, including the slider, I can imagine
many convoluted combinations of carts from the various inks Jon sells
that could be vialble and beautiful given a creative brain...
Various MIS inks as well, though I'm not familiar with them any more.
Jon's correct about the K7s assuming one is using them as intended,
then the slider is not relevant.
If the N color printers ( is not a x600 or x800 an N color printer?)
offer anything to someone like me, it's simply more slots to do what I
want with. From what I've heard so far, I don't know what all the
noise is about other than the usual marketing din.
Tyler

I'll tell you what I would like, and I talked to Tyler about this a
while back, I'd like the capability with QTR and NK6 SplitTone set to
be able to assign the Sepia to the shadows and lower midtones and
Neutral to Highlights for some jobs, and then switch to the opposite -
Sepia for highlights and higher midtones, Neutral for the Shadows for
other jobs. The latter being the approximate look of gold cloride
split toning with silver paper.

Roy, is that even possible with QTR?

John

> > It was a suggestion for several other ink configurations that 
> > can be used with QTR.
> > 
> > It is to be expected that typical quad ink sets will be 
> > replaced by the new N-color printers
> 
> What constitues a typical quad ink set?
> 
> Also, given the capability of QTR, including the slider, I can imagine
> many convoluted combinations of carts from the various inks Jon sells
> that could be vialble and beautiful given a creative brain...
> Various MIS inks as well, though I'm not familiar with them any more.
> Jon's correct about the K7s assuming one is using them as intended,
> then the slider is not relevant.
> If the N color printers ( is not a x600 or x800 an N color printer?)
> offer anything to someone like me, it's simply more slots to do what I
> want with. From what I've heard so far, I don't know what all the
> noise is about other than the usual marketing din.
> Tyler
>

Tyler, you wrote

> What constitues a typical quad ink set?

I should have written archetypal quad ink set. One that is 
entirely monochrome or very close to it, the ones we started with.

> Also, given the capability of QTR, including the slider, I can imagine
> many convoluted combinations of carts from the various inks Jon sells
> that could be vialble and beautiful given a creative brain...

My suggestion to create that slider doesn't limit its use for 
other ink sests

> Various MIS inks as well, though I'm not familiar with them any more.
> Jon's correct about the K7s assuming one is using them as intended,
> then the slider is not relevant.

Thought so too about Jon's reply but that doesn't make it less 
relevant for QTR in general.

> If the N color printers ( is not a x600 or x800 an N color printer?)
> offer anything to someone like me, it's simply more slots to do what I
> want with. From what I've heard so far, I don't know what all the
> noise is about other than the usual marketing din.

On the Photokina and in an email exchange with one of the HP 
developers I got pretty good idea how the Gray Balance part + 
HP Preview plug-in works for B&W. While things can be improved 
(and they listen) it looks good in my opinion. Calibrated at 
the bottom, reasonable soft proof concept, ease of use and 
flexibility to name the most important aspects of the 
software. Good Dmax on mat and gloss, neutral monochrome inks, 
gloss enhancer. Minimal color added and good fade resistant 
with the N-colors added.

I think an N-color printer is a printer that uses hues beyond 
the CMY range. So CcMmYyKKKKKK isn't an N-color printer. It 
could even be set stricter: the engine that drives it should 
go beyond CMYK and is essentially more than a 4 channel 
machine. Hard to get the facts of that above the table. For 
example I have the impression that the new HPs are still 8 bit 
in the driver and not 10-12 bit like the new Canons are but 
information so far is contradicting.

BTW, not mentioned in most Photokina reports but a real first: 
a new consumer grade A4 HP flatbed/film scanner has 6 color 
channels, 96 bit data. My guess is that this N-color  printing 
and scanning is a first sign of multi-spectrum digital imaging 
getting to normal pros and consumers. Not as scientific as 
already is done in art reproduction + archiving in some of the 
big musea on this planet but still faster available to a wider 
market than I expected. Editing software in the middle may be 
the bottleneck for a long time to come. HP Scanjet G4010.

http://www.letsgodigital.org/en/10766/hp_scanjet_g4010/

The most important thing of the HP Z models is that they 
incorporate excellent quad and color printing with good 
profiling for color and the basic calibration for B&W, all in 
one machine.  I know the time it takes to keep two machines 
running for different jobs.

Doesn't look like a machine that you would convert to other 
inksets. More a machine you would like to use without thinking 
of tweaks.


Ernst
                    --
           Ernst Dinkla


www.pigment-print.com
(         unvollendet         )

--- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, Ernst Dinkla <E.Dinkla@...> wrote:
>
> Tyler, you wrote
> 
> > What constitues a typical quad ink set?
> 
> I should have written archetypal quad ink set. One that is 
> entirely monochrome or very close to it, the ones we started with.

I thought that might be the case, and before I went any farther wanted
to make sure....
All I can say without writing a novel and putting conditions on every
other sentence is that those inksets and methods continued to evolve
while the OEMs were trying to catch up.
The change is that the differences between them matter to a smaller
and smaller group of people. But wasn't that always the case, and who
cares?
The mono prints I've seen in the last year or so that are the most
beautiful, including what come out of this shop (which regularly also
does UCK3 mono very well) are with mono ink sets. Also, the
exhibitions I've seen or heard about getting any acceptance have been
the same.

However, clearly the forces are aligning, bundling, etc.. I've never
had so many engineers tell me what I should want my prints to look
like, a very strange phenominon. Very Rumsfeld.
We'll see where it goes, I'll need some exraordinary prints in my hand
with that elusive something special.
That's all I care about. Hell, better then other obsessions I can
think of...
Tyler

Tyler Boley wrote:

> However, clearly the forces are aligning, bundling, etc.. I've never
> had so many engineers tell me what I should want my prints to look
> like, a very strange phenominon. Very Rumsfeld.
> We'll see where it goes, I'll need some exraordinary prints in my hand
> with that elusive something special.
> That's all I care about. Hell, better then other obsessions I can
> think of...
> Tyler

The engineers behave like Rumsfeld or is the first line 
representing a stream of consciousness of Rumsfeld ?
I got the impression he doesn't like different opinions and 
surrounds himself with the ones that have no opinion.

Tyler, it is hardware but with enough monochrome inks aboard. 
Since when did that stop us to make it better than intended by 
the engineers ?

Ernst
                    --
           Ernst Dinkla


www.pigment-print.com
(         unvollendet         )

--- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, Ernst Dinkla <E.Dinkla@...> wrote:
..
> Tyler, it is hardware but with enough monochrome inks aboard. 

See Ernst, here's one area where where many of us part ways. I believe the HP has 4? I have 
been able to bring 4 mono inks forward in quality only because of recent developments in 
the software I use allowing me to manipulate dot size combinations on a per ink level and 
giving me options in how dots are mixed when multiple inks are assigned to specific tonal 
areas. The transitions between inks are now better, smoother, describing more levels of 
gray in those transitions and even describing more file detail information. When inks of 
subtly different hues are combined in different ways using these tools yet another way of 
working with tonal presence comes into play in a way I've never seen on paper from any 
combination of gray inks and saturated color inks dithered together.
This only happened recently, and in fact I actually never use only 4, 5 at a minimum. The 
results I've seen from even more grays seems astonishingly more photographic than ever, 
and has gone unheralded as many of these users have left these forums to go print. I wish 
I had another printer to play with more dilutions in a mono set.
But because in the past 4, or even 3, was "enough", many people have not even seen a 
print made from more grays. 3 or 4 "sounds" like it should be enough.
4 was enough when the resulting prints were better than the options. Things have evolved 
considerably and now we have options that clearly show more is better.
This increase in the number of available grays has also changed the way of thinking about 
how they combine on paper. Only 4 required the partitioning to be done specifically and 
correctly, within certain limits, or image quality would suffer.

> Since when did that stop us to make it better than intended by 
> the engineers ?

Because of the help of people like you and others over the years, never. But you know as 
well as I what we did, we dumped those OEM inks out and started over and used different 
drivers and forced control into our hands. Obviously QTR has played a major role in a lot 
of this.
But please don't get me wrong. I'm ready for a talented printer to put a piece in front of 
me from the HP solution untinkered, and have it knock my socks off.
In the meantime I'm sure these products will help a lot of people out there, and I'm very 
glad Epson will have some competition. It's an interesting time, particularly off in the little 
niche I've witnessed.
Tyler

> Tyler Boley wrote:

> I have 
> been able to bring 4 mono inks forward in quality only 
> because of recent developments in 
> the software I use allowing me to manipulate dot size 
> combinations on a per ink level and 
> giving me options in how dots are mixed when multiple inks 
> are assigned to specific tonal 
> areas. The transitions between inks are now better, smoother, 

Tyler, which software are you using?

Do you find that there a minimum size where 4 (or 3) inks is sufficient? Put
another way, I notice that larger prints show the benefit of an increased #
of inks more readily than smaller prints do (although the impact can be seen
on both depending on the image). What at I'm not sure is where the threshold
is.

> This only happened recently, and in fact I actually never use 
> only 4, 5 at a minimum. The 
> results I've seen from even more grays seems astonishingly 
> more photographic than ever, 
> and has gone unheralded as many of these users have left 
> these forums to go print.

You're using K7 inks, correct? 

Do you print on gloss media? If so, what ink set do you use?

Terry.

--- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "Terry Ritz" <t.ritz@...> wrote:
...
> Tyler, which software are you using?

I mostly use StudioPrint, and that was what I was refering to, so perhaps I'm ranting on the 
wrong forum.
> 
> Do you find that there a minimum size where 4 (or 3) inks is sufficient?

I don't

>  Put
> another way, I notice that larger prints show the benefit of an increased #
> of inks more readily than smaller prints do (although the impact can be seen
> on both depending on the image). What at I'm not sure is where the threshold
> is.

I see the reverse. Mechanical printer evidence (dots, etc.) remains the same regardless of 
print size obviously, since the smaller the print the closer you will look at it the higher 
proprotion of printer pattern to image data. The smoothness of the source data has more 
of an impact I think, grain will visually compete with the printer image structure and mask 
it somewhat. 
Small prints with a similar looks as, for example, 4x5 or 5x7 contact platinum prints 
certainly benifit.
> 
...
> 
> You're using K7 inks, correct? 

I'm not but wish I was. I'm using a mixed Piezotone set in a 9600. I'm more in need of the 
variable hues from selecting and blending these sets for my clients than the benifits of the 
K7s and a set hue. I hope to get another printer for some kind of K7 or more setup.
I'd love a lot of slots, I mean a lot, more monochromatic hues and densities, and more Rip 
flexibility to work with on paper.
But I've seen a lot of K7 output now, and the superiority of more grays is clear, more than I 
would have thought until seeing it for myself.
> 
> Do you print on gloss media? If so, what ink set do you use?

Nope, have yet to see anything working real well. Doing some good setups with UCK3s, 
special profiles and ink setups on FType Gloss and Silver Rag, but the fine art papers and 
mono inks are still the winners.
I think K7s and some of these papers would clearly show the advantages of multiple grays 
even more than the the art papers. I trhink the surfaces still have some necessary 
evolution, but things are promising.
Tyler