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Creating QTR Profiles from "Plot Lists"

Creating QTR Profiles from "Plot Lists"

2007-12-04 by Louis Dina

I promised to provide some feedback on building QTR profiles using 
the "Plot List" feature, where you can design your own curves.  Paul 
Roark has been doing this for some time, and I owe him a big thanks 
for all his guidance, both on and off forum.  

I find this method has a few distinct advantages.  Advantages include 
the ability to control every point on any individual curve, including 
where the ink starts and stops.  My original reason for trying this 
method was that I noticed that my finished profiles usually had a 
density loss of 0.03 to 0.05 in terms of Dmax, and I determined that 
this was due to the introduction of light inks in the shadows using 
the standard QTR curves (I am using the MIS Pro color inkset on an 
Epson 4000, so I use LC, LM and sometimes other colors to control the 
tone at different points.  This does not provide the same light 
fastness as pure carbon profiles).  Anyway, a density loss of 0.03 to 
0.05 may not be a big deal on papers with a high Dmax, but it can 
sometimes make a big difference on many of the matte fine art 
papers.  So, I stopped the use of light inks at about 95% and the 
density came back up to the Dmax the MK ink showed on the original 
calibration target print.  Also, by trial and error, I was able to 
create nearly linear profiles prior to linearization, and the final 
linearization simply applied small corrections to make it nearly 
perfect.  The biggest advantage to me is the ability to copy these 
profiles to new papers, requiring only that I set a new ink limit 
(which readjusts all inks in the profile), followed by a 
linearization.  This can also be done with QTR profiles created in 
the standard manner, but this I preferred this approach.

The biggest disadvantage is the substantial time and effort required 
to set up the original set of curves using plot lists, which was 
quite time consuming and a bit tedious.  

<b>(It sure would be nice if we could edit curves on screen by 
dragging and dropping points on the curve or using the arrow 
keys....hint, hint.)</b>

I was originally hoping that I would be able to use my original matte 
profiles (designed for warm toned fine art matte papers) and 
repurpose them for use on luster and glossy type papers too.  Setting 
ink limits and linearization work great.... but.....the PK ink is a 
LOT (and I mean a LOT) warmer than Eboni black, so all profiles 
created for glossy and luster papers from my matte profiles tend to 
be a lot warmer.  

So, I am in the process of creating a set of "Plot List" profiles for 
those papers that use PK ink, (Ilford Gold Fibre Silk, Epson Premium 
Luster, Kirkland Glossy, etc), and will use them as the basis for 
building new profiles on other similar papers.  Just setting the 
paper's ink limit and relinearizing should be all that is required.  

The standard QTR curve shapes work fine and are a lot less work.  But 
the use of Plot Lists can provide extra control where desired, such 
as building a single split tone profile (which doesn't require 
blending two or more profiles). It also allows me to improve Dmax in 
the deep blacks.  You can do nearly anything you want with plot lists 
if you have the time and persistence.

Since I am not using Quad type inksets, I cannot comment on whether 
this approach would show any improvement over the standard approach.  
I suspect there would be less difference, since you are usually using 
3, 4 or more shades of black for the curves, so any "pollution" of 
the deep blacks would seem to have less effect on Dmax, since it 
would be a darker ink to begin with.  Paul or others will be a better 
source of information on that subject.  

As porky pig says....ah-ba-dee, ah-ba-dee....that's all folks!

Lou

Re: [QuadtoneRIP] Creating QTR Profiles from "Plot Lists"

2007-12-04 by Robert Walsh

On Dec 4, 2007, at 11:29 AM, Louis Dina wrote:

> I promised to provide some feedback on building QTR profiles using
> the "Plot List" feature, where you can design your own curves. Paul
> Roark has been doing this for some time, and I owe him a big thanks
> for all his guidance, both on and off forum.
>
> I find this method has a few distinct advantages. Advantages include
> the ability to control every point on any individual curve, including
> where the ink starts and stops. My original reason for trying this
> method was that I noticed that my finished profiles usually had a
> density loss of 0.03 to 0.05 in terms of Dmax, and I determined that
> this was due to the introduction of light inks in the shadows using
> the standard QTR curves (I am using the MIS Pro color inkset on an
> Epson 4000, so I use LC, LM and sometimes other colors to control the
> tone at different points. This does not provide the same light
> fastness as pure carbon profiles). Anyway, a density loss of 0.03 to
> 0.05 may not be a big deal on papers with a high Dmax, but it can
> sometimes make a big difference on many of the matte fine art
> papers. So, I stopped the use of light inks at about 95% and the
> density came back up to the Dmax the MK ink showed on the original
> calibration target print. Also, by trial and error, I was able to
> create nearly linear profiles prior to linearization, and the final
> linearization simply applied small corrections to make it nearly
> perfect. The biggest advantage to me is the ability to copy these
> profiles to new papers, requiring only that I set a new ink limit
> (which readjusts all inks in the profile), followed by a
> linearization. This can also be done with QTR profiles created in
> the standard manner, but this I preferred this approach.
>
> The biggest disadvantage is the substantial time and effort required
> to set up the original set of curves using plot lists, which was
> quite time consuming and a bit tedious.
>
> <b>(It sure would be nice if we could edit curves on screen by
> dragging and dropping points on the curve or using the arrow
> keys....hint, hint.)</b>
>
> I was originally hoping that I would be able to use my original matte
> profiles (designed for warm toned fine art matte papers) and
> repurpose them for use on luster and glossy type papers too. Setting
> ink limits and linearization work great.... but.....the PK ink is a
> LOT (and I mean a LOT) warmer than Eboni black, so all profiles
> created for glossy and luster papers from my matte profiles tend to
> be a lot warmer.
>
> So, I am in the process of creating a set of "Plot List" profiles for
> those papers that use PK ink, (Ilford Gold Fibre Silk, Epson Premium
> Luster, Kirkland Glossy, etc), and will use them as the basis for
> building new profiles on other similar papers. Just setting the
> paper's ink limit and relinearizing should be all that is required.
>
> The standard QTR curve shapes work fine and are a lot less work. But
> the use of Plot Lists can provide extra control where desired, such
> as building a single split tone profile (which doesn't require
> blending two or more profiles). It also allows me to improve Dmax in
> the deep blacks. You can do nearly anything you want with plot lists
> if you have the time and persistence.
>
> Since I am not using Quad type inksets, I cannot comment on whether
> this approach would show any improvement over the standard approach.
> I suspect there would be less difference, since you are usually using
> 3, 4 or more shades of black for the curves, so any "pollution" of
> the deep blacks would seem to have less effect on Dmax, since it
> would be a darker ink to begin with. Paul or others will be a better
> source of information on that subject.
>
> As porky pig says....ah-ba-dee, ah-ba-dee....that's all folks!
>
> Lou
>
>
> 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: Creating QTR Profiles from "Plot Lists"

2007-12-05 by John Vitollo

--- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "Louis Dina" <lou@...> wrote:
>.....
> The biggest disadvantage is the substantial time and effort required 
> to set up the original set of curves using plot lists, which was 
> quite time consuming and a bit tedious.  
> 
> <b>(It sure would be nice if we could edit curves on screen by 
> dragging and dropping points on the curve or using the arrow 
> keys....hint, hint.)</b>

Hi Lou,

IJC (Ink Jet Control) uses curves....I noticed you not using IJC...any reason since you 
are/were the IJC king?

I found using IJC curves a little problematic as IJC linearization would negate a lot of the 
curve adjustment.

<http://www.bowhaus.com/news/ijcnews.php4>

Best,

John

Re: Creating QTR Profiles from "Plot Lists"

2007-12-05 by Louis Dina

Hi John, it's been awhile.  Hope all is well.

Yes, I gave up on IJC/OPM and even uninstalled it from my machine.  
Poor support from Bowhaus, small user community, infrequent updates 
(the 3800 still isn't supported), and a few irritating bugs and 
quirky problems.  Too bad, because I loved the interface for creating 
curves and a few other neat features.  I also like and respect Joe 
Berndt.  

QTR allows me the same degree of control over curve shapes using Plot 
lists, although the interface is entirely different.  I like my 
results with QTR better, especially using 2880 dpi, unidirectional 
printing, and the Ordered algorithm.  It's slow, but I love the 
prints.  QTR is also well supported, frequently updated and has a 
huge user base.  

Linearization always changes the the curve shapes, with both 
programs.  The less linear your raw curves are to begin with, the 
more linearization adjusts them, which is one reason I try to get a 
reasonably linear file to begin with.  I don't know if the two 
programs adjust the curves differently or not during linearization.  
It's been quite awhile since I used IJC, but I don't recall having a 
big problem with the linearization routine.  

Lou

--- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "John Vitollo" <jvlist@...> wrote:
> Hi Lou,
> 
> IJC (Ink Jet Control) uses curves....I noticed you not using 
IJC...any reason since you 
> are/were the IJC king?
> 
> I found using IJC curves a little problematic as IJC linearization 
would negate a lot of the 
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> curve adjustment.
> 
> <http://www.bowhaus.com/news/ijcnews.php4>
> 
> Best,
> 
> John
>

Re: Creating QTR Profiles from "Plot Lists"

2007-12-08 by John Vitollo

--- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "Louis Dina" <lou@...> wrote:
>
> Hi John, it's been awhile.  Hope all is well.
> 
> Yes, I gave up on IJC/OPM and even uninstalled it from my machine.  
> Poor support from Bowhaus, small user community, infrequent updates 
> (the 3800 still isn't supported), and a few irritating bugs and 
> quirky problems.  Too bad, because I loved the interface for creating 
> curves and a few other neat features.  I also like and respect Joe 
> Berndt.  

Good to see you back Lou pluggin' along!

Yep...you hit the nail on the head with IJC/OPM. Very little support from Bowhaus and the 
user community...which is pretty non-existent. Too bad they didn't lower the price like QTR. 
Both Joe and Charles know their stuff and I think they are just too busy printing for others 
and have no time for IJC. 

John V.

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