QTR-Quadtone RIP

Dear Mr Nelson:

Yes_ I have a reflection and transmission densitometer.  I probably am not being clear enough to elicit an answer that is helpful.  Let me try again to better explain what I am printing and how I use the print.

I am using a homemade digital fluid in an Epson 1280.  The paper which is printed is water slide decal paper.  It is paper that has a heavy layer of dextrine ( water soluable glue that is used on stamps- before peel and stick)  Pigments imbeded in the digital fluid are finely ground china ceramic paint pigments. After the pigmented dot image is dried, it is coated with a flexable organic lacquer. This consolidates the dots and holds the image together.  The paper with the coated decal is soaked in water to disolve the dextrine glue.  The decal is transferred to a ceramic surface and squeeged to conform to surface curves.  The decal coated ceramic is put into a kiln and fired to 1100 -1300 degrees F where all organics are consumed and the ceramic color particals melt and fuse into and onto the ceramic surface.  This produces a very long lasting and durable photo image.

 Now that is explained, let me call your attention to the printing consideration I am trying to improve.  The "DOT GAIN" is great, very great!  The first big dot gain occurs on the water slide decal paper.  The next dot gains occur during the firing phase. My present printing procedure is to manage the image so a good BW image shows on the monitor. I may slightly over sharpen, then desaturate  and save as Tif.  Next I apply a strong curve that makes the monitor image look almost white. I send this RGB desatuated image to the 1280 printer using black only, glossy color paper, at gamma 1.5 settings.  It does not take too much imagination to realize the difficulty of controlling toneality. Oh yes- I have my digital fluid only in the black cartridge. Image color is determined by color of the ceramic particals. Final image is monochrome.

I wish to improve the low contrast details- especially in the lighter tones and keep details and contrast in the darkest areas.  I am using a 4 pico liter -all the same size dot printer and only a one nozzle pattern.  If I could use a two nozzle output and control each pattern, it should allow  better control of the dot patterns.  I visualize smoother and better edges of contrasty areas and perhaps more detail in lighter tones. This is where QTR could help me examine and test possibilites were I able to program my test curves. My trials with QTR curve creations have not been successful as I am not knowledgable in digital programming.  I have asked if there is a QTR class or some one who would mentor me  I will be more than willing to send you examples of decals and a ceramic tile if this will help you guide me to better understand QTR curve creation.  Many thanks for taking time to read and perhaps consider my request.

Harry L Burnett Jr.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Harry, I'll assume you are responding to me, the Dane not an Englishman ; ) 

 

If you are only using one channel to run your image, you should be able to
get a better transition if you add a dilution to the mix and run it in one
of the other ink slots. I'd even go so far as to say you could use all four.
With QTR, you run an ink limit to get to a controlled out put. If you have
the measuring devices, then you read the before, your substrate, and your
after, the kiln fired ceramic. I'd use big squares like you'll find in the
100 step target in QTR. Print it out after your "image curve" and plot the
points. You are printing an image, and then transferring that to a ceramic
receiver and firing it. 

 

You are looking to get better separation in the highlights, where now you
are currently getting black to white without good transitions?  I haven't
been using the program much lately, but you should be able to make some
curves to show output values with your final reflected readings.  

 

I'd be tempted to run extremely high dilutions with 4 slots rather than
curve the heck out of the image in PS.  

 

 

Eric Neilsen Photography

4101 Commerce Street

Suite 9

Dallas, TX 75226

http://e.neilsen.home.att.net

http://ericneilsenphotography.com

Skype ejprinter

  _____  

From: QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com [mailto:QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf Of Harry Burnett Jr
Sent: Monday, March 24, 2008 7:41 PM
To: QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [QuadtoneRIP] QTR Help for photoceramic curve?

 

Dear Mr Nelson:

Yes_ I have a reflection and transmission densitometer. I probably am not
being clear enough to elicit an answer that is helpful. Let me try again to
better explain what I am printing and how I use the print.

I am using a homemade digital fluid in an Epson 1280. The paper which is
printed is water slide decal paper. It is paper that has a heavy layer of
dextrine ( water soluable glue that is used on stamps- before peel and
stick) Pigments imbeded in the digital fluid are finely ground china ceramic
paint pigments. After the pigmented dot image is dried, it is coated with a
flexable organic lacquer. This consolidates the dots and holds the image
together. The paper with the coated decal is soaked in water to disolve the
dextrine glue. The decal is transferred to a ceramic surface and squeeged to
conform to surface curves. The decal coated ceramic is put into a kiln and
fired to 1100 -1300 degrees F where all organics are consumed and the
ceramic color particals melt and fuse into and onto the ceramic surface.
This produces a very long lasting and durable photo image.

Now that is explained, let me call your attention to the printing
consideration I am trying to improve. The "DOT GAIN" is great, very great!
The first big dot gain occurs on the water slide decal paper. The next dot
gains occur during the firing phase. My present printing procedure is to
manage the image so a good BW image shows on the monitor. I may slightly
over sharpen, then desaturate and save as Tif. Next I apply a strong curve
that makes the monitor image look almost white. I send this RGB desatuated
image to the 1280 printer using black only, glossy color paper, at gamma 1.5
settings. It does not take too much imagination to realize the difficulty of
controlling toneality. Oh yes- I have my digital fluid only in the black
cartridge. Image color is determined by color of the ceramic particals.
Final image is monochrome.

I wish to improve the low contrast details- especially in the lighter tones
and keep details and contrast in the darkest areas. I am using a 4 pico
liter -all the same size dot printer and only a one nozzle pattern. If I
could use a two nozzle output and control each pattern, it should allow
better control of the dot patterns. I visualize smoother and better edges of
contrasty areas and perhaps more detail in lighter tones. This is where QTR
could help me examine and test possibilites were I able to program my test
curves. My trials with QTR curve creations have not been successful as I am
not knowledgable in digital programming. I have asked if there is a QTR
class or some one who would mentor me I will be more than willing to send
you examples of decals and a ceramic tile if this will help you guide me to
better understand QTR curve creation. Many thanks for taking time to read
and perhaps consider my request.

Harry L Burnett Jr.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

----- Original Message ----- 

  From: Eric Neilsen 
  To: QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Monday, March 24, 2008 11:52 PM
  Subject: RE: [QuadtoneRIP] QTR Help for photoceramic curve?


  Harry, I'll assume you are responding to me, the Dane not an Englishman ; ) 

  If you are only using one channel to run your image, you should be able to
  get a better transition if you add a dilution to the mix and run it in one
  of the other ink slots. I'd even go so far as to say you could use all four.
  With QTR, you run an ink limit to get to a controlled out put. If you have
  the measuring devices, then you read the before, your substrate, and your
  after, the kiln fired ceramic. I'd use big squares like you'll find in the
  100 step target in QTR. Print it out after your "image curve" and plot the
  points. You are printing an image, and then transferring that to a ceramic
  receiver and firing it. 

  You are looking to get better separation in the highlights, where now you
  are currently getting black to white without good transitions? I haven't
  been using the program much lately, but you should be able to make some
  curves to show output values with your final reflected readings. 

  I'd be tempted to run extremely high dilutions with 4 slots rather than
  curve the heck out of the image in PS. 

  Eric Neilsen Photography

  4101 Commerce Street

  Suite 9

  Dallas, TX 75226

  http://e.neilsen.home.att.net

  http://ericneilsenphotography.com

  Skype ejprinter

  _____ 

  From: QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com [mailto:QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com] On
  Behalf Of Harry Burnett Jr
  Sent: Monday, March 24, 2008 7:41 PM
  To: QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com
  Subject: [QuadtoneRIP] QTR Help for photoceramic curve?

  Dear Mr Nelson:

  Yes_ I have a reflection and transmission densitometer. I probably am not
  being clear enough to elicit an answer that is helpful. Let me try again to
  better explain what I am printing and how I use the print.

  I am using a homemade digital fluid in an Epson 1280. The paper which is
  printed is water slide decal paper. It is paper that has a heavy layer of
  dextrine ( water soluable glue that is used on stamps- before peel and
  stick) Pigments imbeded in the digital fluid are finely ground china ceramic
  paint pigments. After the pigmented dot image is dried, it is coated with a
  flexable organic lacquer. This consolidates the dots and holds the image
  together. The paper with the coated decal is soaked in water to disolve the
  dextrine glue. The decal is transferred to a ceramic surface and squeeged to
  conform to surface curves. The decal coated ceramic is put into a kiln and
  fired to 1100 -1300 degrees F where all organics are consumed and the
  ceramic color particals melt and fuse into and onto the ceramic surface.
  This produces a very long lasting and durable photo image.

  Now that is explained, let me call your attention to the printing
  consideration I am trying to improve. The "DOT GAIN" is great, very great!
  The first big dot gain occurs on the water slide decal paper. The next dot
  gains occur during the firing phase. My present printing procedure is to
  manage the image so a good BW image shows on the monitor. I may slightly
  over sharpen, then desaturate and save as Tif. Next I apply a strong curve
  that makes the monitor image look almost white. I send this RGB desatuated
  image to the 1280 printer using black only, glossy color paper, at gamma 1.5
  settings. It does not take too much imagination to realize the difficulty of
  controlling toneality. Oh yes- I have my digital fluid only in the black
  cartridge. Image color is determined by color of the ceramic particals.
  Final image is monochrome.

  I wish to improve the low contrast details- especially in the lighter tones
  and keep details and contrast in the darkest areas. I am using a 4 pico
  liter -all the same size dot printer and only a one nozzle pattern. If I
  could use a two nozzle output and control each pattern, it should allow
  better control of the dot patterns. I visualize smoother and better edges of
  contrasty areas and perhaps more detail in lighter tones. This is where QTR
  could help me examine and test possibilites were I able to program my test
  curves. My trials with QTR curve creations have not been successful as I am
  not knowledgable in digital programming. I have asked if there is a QTR
  class or some one who would mentor me I will be more than willing to send
  you examples of decals and a ceramic tile if this will help you guide me to
  better understand QTR curve creation. Many thanks for taking time to read
  and perhaps consider my request.

  Harry L Burnett Jr.

  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


  Sorry about the last name.....

  Thanks for the reply.  Again I am not being understood completly.  I have only one digital fluid that will jet reasonably well.  It cannot be diluted or thinned.  So I can could use this same fluid one or more positions and control each position independantly of others. When using using a "normal" set of curves, dot gain for three or four positions printing simultaneously adds up and  is imense.  This indicates I must generate a set of very low contrast curves that together will yield normal results.  This is at the heart of my request for help.  How can I use QTR to create these low contrast curves?  Thanks again. Harry L Burnett Jr

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Harry, I should have put a big smiley there. My name gets changed ALL the
time. I am understanding you. I did miss the idea that you cannot dilute
your material. Why? You are using a carrier and a pigment ( real or some
material that once heat changes to create a color/density). No? 

 

In any case, Out put a test chart, that has known density to the substrate.
You can work out some of that on plain paper first. Limit the cart that has
your product Perhaps a 21step scale is your best target and not a 100 step
scale. 

 

Can you find the calibration set up in QTR?   

 

Eric Neilsen Photo

4101 Commerce Street, Suite 9

Dallas, TX 75226

214 827-8301

 

http://ericneilsenphotography.com

SKype ejprinter

 


Sorry about the last name.....

Thanks for the reply. Again I am not being understood completly 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "Harry Burnett Jr" <HBURNETT@...>
wrote:

> 
>   Yes_ I have a reflection and transmission densitometer. I probably
am not
>   being clear enough to elicit an answer that is helpful. Let me try
again to
>   better explain what I am printing and how I use the print.
> 
>   I am using a homemade digital fluid in an Epson 1280. The paper
which is
>   printed is water slide decal paper. It is paper that has a heavy
layer of
>   dextrine ( water soluable glue that is used on stamps- before peel and
>   stick) Pigments imbeded in the digital fluid are finely ground
china ceramic
>   paint pigments. After the pigmented dot image is dried, it is
coated with a
>   flexable organic lacquer. This consolidates the dots and holds the
image
>   together. The paper with the coated decal is soaked in water to
disolve the
>   dextrine glue. The decal is transferred to a ceramic surface and
squeeged to
>   conform to surface curves. The decal coated ceramic is put into a
kiln and
>   fired to 1100 -1300 degrees F where all organics are consumed and the
>   ceramic color particals melt and fuse into and onto the ceramic
surface.
>   This produces a very long lasting and durable photo image.
> 
>   Now that is explained, let me call your attention to the printing
>   consideration I am trying to improve. The "DOT GAIN" is great,
very great!
>   The first big dot gain occurs on the water slide decal paper. The
next dot
>   gains occur during the firing phase. My present printing procedure
is to
>   manage the image so a good BW image shows on the monitor. I may
slightly
>   over sharpen, then desaturate and save as Tif. Next I apply a
strong curve
>   that makes the monitor image look almost white. I send this RGB
desatuated
>   image to the 1280 printer using black only, glossy color paper, at
gamma 1.5
>   settings. It does not take too much imagination to realize the
difficulty of
>   controlling toneality. Oh yes- I have my digital fluid only in the
black
>   cartridge. Image color is determined by color of the ceramic
particals.
>   Final image is monochrome.
> 
>   I wish to improve the low contrast details- especially in the
lighter tones
>   and keep details and contrast in the darkest areas. I am using a 4
pico
>   liter -all the same size dot printer and only a one nozzle
pattern. If I
>   could use a two nozzle output and control each pattern, it should
allow
>   better control of the dot patterns. I visualize smoother and
better edges of
>   contrasty areas and perhaps more detail in lighter tones. This is
where QTR
>   could help me examine and test possibilites were I able to program
my test
>   curves. My trials with QTR curve creations have not been
successful as I am
>   not knowledgable in digital programming. I have asked if there is
a QTR
>   class or some one who would mentor me I will be more than willing
to send
>   you examples of decals and a ceramic tile if this will help you
guide me to
>   better understand QTR curve creation. Many thanks for taking time
to read
>   and perhaps consider my request.
> 
>   Harry L Burnett Jr.

> 
>  Again I am not being understood completly.  I have only one digital
fluid that will jet reasonably well.  It cannot be diluted or thinned.
 So I can could use this same fluid one or more positions and control
each position independantly of others. When using using a "normal" set
of curves, dot gain for three or four positions printing
simultaneously adds up and  is imense.  This indicates I must generate
a set of very low contrast curves that together will yield normal
results.  This is at the heart of my request for help.  How can I use
QTR to create these low contrast curves?  Thanks again. Harry L Burnett Jr
> 


Hello Harry. If you cannot change your ink density (by that I mean use
 less pigment in your home made mix with the fluid.), then it would
seem that changing the ink limits is the only means of control you
have. You could use 2 or 3 jets with the same fluid and density and
reduce the overall default ink limit to 1/2 to 1/3 of normal.That
would keep the total amount of ink the same while giving hopefully
smoother results. Note that you can just keep reducing the ink limit
with even the one jet method until you are seeing less of a problem.
There is likely nothing you can do about the dot gain. It is what it
is. You might try using a curve already in QTR such as one of the 3MK
curves and just modify it a bit. You should not have to muck about
with trying low contrast images etc to get results. Eric was not
misleading you.

Regards
Duane

The density of the ink can really not  be controlled by 
reducing the ceramic particles (fritte as we call it here I 
guess) amount to the ink medium ?  Is the rheology of the 
ink already at the edge of not usable ? If dotgain in the 
total process is hard to handle then a duotone, tritone or 
quad inkset should make it easier to keep the tonal range in 
control but only when the ink itself isn't more compromised 
by the changed pigment ratio. No ink additives possible to 
deal with that issue ?

Do you measure the densities in the final product, a 
greyscale step target on a baked tile ? Measuring on the 
printed transfer sheet is likely not delivering an accurate 
base to make curves on.

-- 
Met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst


|  Dinkla Grafische Techniek  |
|     www.pigment-print.com    |
|             ( unvollendet )            |

Dear Ernst
Thank you for your reply.  So far your understanding of my photoceramic quest gets closer to the problem. I compare the final fired result with a good glossy paper print and make my judgments here.  I only wish I could better compound an my digital fluid with dependable results.  I have no lab rheologology
measuring equipment and only use trial and error to get where I am with this project. Ink additives seem almost infinite but when I get a good fritted image the digital fluids are very viscous and clog the printer nozzles.  Your suggestion on using duotones, tritones and quadtones seems a very good path to follow as I have no one who will mentor me in the QTR curve creation procedure as yet. Photoshop manuals have duotones, tritones and quadtone procedures well documented.  I note you are in the Netherlands-Holland here in the USA.  Thank you for your interest and replying with the suggestion of persuing Duotone, tritone, and quadtone printing.---- Original Message ----- 

  From: Ernst Dinkla 
  To: QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2008 4:54 AM
  Subject: Re: [QuadtoneRIP] Re: QTR Help for photoceramic curve?



  The density of the ink can really not be controlled by 
  reducing the ceramic particles (fritte as we call it here I 
  guess) amount to the ink medium ? Is the rheology of the 
  ink already at the edge of not usable ? If dotgain in the 
  total process is hard to handle then a duotone, tritone or 
  quad inkset should make it easier to keep the tonal range in 
  control but only when the ink itself isn't more compromised 
  by the changed pigment ratio. No ink additives possible to 
  deal with that issue ?

  Do you measure the densities in the final product, a 
  greyscale step target on a baked tile ? Measuring on the 
  printed transfer sheet is likely not delivering an accurate 
  base to make curves on.

  -- 
  Met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst

  | Dinkla Grafische Techniek |
  | www.pigment-print.com |
  | ( unvollendet ) |


   


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Harry Burnett Jr wrote:
> Dear Ernst
> Thank you for your reply.  So far your understanding of my photoceramic quest gets closer to the problem. I compare the final fired result with a good glossy paper print and make my judgments here.  I only wish I could better compound an my digital fluid with dependable results.  I have no lab rheologology
> measuring equipment and only use trial and error to get where I am with this project. Ink additives seem almost infinite but when I get a good fritted image the digital fluids are very viscous and clog the printer nozzles.  Your suggestion on using duotones, tritones and quadtones seems a very good path to follow as I have no one who will mentor me in the QTR curve creation procedure as yet. Photoshop manuals have duotones, tritones and quadtone procedures well documented.  I note you are in the Netherlands-Holland here in the USA.  Thank you for your interest and replying with the suggestion of persuing Duotone, tritone, and quadtone printing.---- Original Message ----- 

I probably wasn't clear on the duotones etc. What I 
suggested is to make an inkset that partitions the inks in 
two, three or four gray inks and use QTR to create the 
curves and drive the printer. Not by diluting the black ink 
but by reducing the black pigment you add to the ink medium. 
If that still changes the rheology and you have no 
additives to compensate that then you could even add 
transparent fritte (if that exists) to get the right 
consistency.

There are commercial ceramic inks these days for pi\ufffdzo heads 
(the Spectra type) that can print directly on tiles but 
that's not what you are looking for I guess.

-- 
Met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst


|  Dinkla Grafische Techniek  |
|     www.pigment-print.com    |
|             ( unvollendet )            |

Harry, You are trying adjust your flow by making a massive curve adjustment
in PS.; an almost totally white screen. So any problem downstream with ink
limits is going to be extreme. Ernst has not told you anything different
than I. You need to get your flow under control; ink limit. I presumed that
you had control over your suspension which doesn't sound like you do. If you
are getting clogging, either your material has not, or can not be ground
small enough to be used by your printer or you are getting a reaction
occurring to your material before it makes it out the head. If you go to the
calibration step in QTR, you can limit your ink, limit your gain. If you
don't gain control over your printers out put you will have a very tough
time creating and using a curve in PS that will print accurately enough to
avoid your dot gain. 

 

Unless you have a very well calibrated monitor, using that approach is also
very hard. Screens at both extremes can and will suffer as will your eyes
ability to see it.  

 

Eric Neilsen Photography

4101 Commerce Street

Suite 9

Dallas, TX 75226

http://e.neilsen.home.att.net

http://ericneilsenphotography.com

Skype ejprinter

  _____  

From: QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com [mailto:QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf Of Ernst Dinkla
Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2008 4:55 AM
To: QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [QuadtoneRIP] Re: QTR Help for photoceramic curve?

 


The density of the ink can really not be controlled by 
reducing the ceramic particles (fritte as we call it here I 
guess) amount to the ink medium ? Is the rheology of the 
ink already at the edge of not usable ? If dotgain in the 
total process is hard to handle then a duotone, tritone or 
quad inkset should make it easier to keep the tonal range in 
control but only when the ink itself isn't more compromised 
by the changed pigment ratio. No ink additives possible to 
deal with that issue ?

Do you measure the densities in the final product, a 
greyscale step target on a baked tile ? Measuring on the 
printed transfer sheet is likely not delivering an accurate 
base to make curves on.

-- 
Met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst

| Dinkla Grafische Techniek |
| www.pigment-print.com |
| ( unvollendet ) |

 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]