QTR-Quadtone RIP

Hi all,

I am a newbie using QTR for a novel application.  I work in a research 
lab, and we're printing metals onto a piece of glass using MIS 
refillable cartridges.  What I'm hoping to do is designate each 
grayscale value (0 to 255) a combination of specified ink densities 
from three cartridges.  From what I've been able to gather, I think 
what I need is an ICC profile, but I may be wrong.  I'm not sure how to 
construct this, since it won't be a linear setup at all.  Any ideas?

Thanks,
Wolfe

Hi Wolfe. I'm not sure of exactly what you are saying but the icc
would be a form of linearizing the output. If that is truly Not what
you want then you will need to construct curves for each ink
independently and then test the aggregate. I think Paul Roark and
others are making such curves for various ink sets with the end goal
of linear output so it might be possible to do so for your application
but, unless your intent actually Is to end up with appropriately
linearized density values from 0-255, it would be a negation of what
QTR was designed for I suspect. I do believe it would be possible,
however.
 Perhaps Paul and Roy could give you more assistance in your efforts.

Regards
Duane


--- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "masseurwolfe" <wolfeya@...> wrote:

>
> Hi all,
> 
> I am a newbie using QTR for a novel application.  I work in a research 
> lab, and we're printing metals onto a piece of glass using MIS 
> refillable cartridges.  What I'm hoping to do is designate each 
> grayscale value (0 to 255) a combination of specified ink densities 
> from three cartridges.  From what I've been able to gather, I think 
> what I need is an ICC profile, but I may be wrong.  I'm not sure how to 
> construct this, since it won't be a linear setup at all.  Any ideas?
> 
> Thanks,
> Wolfe
>

Hi Wolfe,

> ... novel application. I work in a research 
>lab, and we're printing metals onto a piece of glass 
>using MIS refillable cartridges.

That does sound interesting.  I'm curious, among other things, how are you
keeping metals in suspension?  Some of our typical pigments have some metal
atoms in the molecule, but most of what I think of as metallic pigments, for
example that watercolor painters use, would seem to have a specific gravity
that is so high they'd fall out of suspension rather quickly.  

> What I'm hoping to do is designate each 
> grayscale value (0 to 255) a combination of specified 
> ink densities from three cartridges.

Yes, what I loosely call profiles or curves do that, if I'm understanding
what you mean here.  

> From what I've been able to gather, I think 
> what I need is an ICC profile, but I may be wrong.

One of the applications in the QTR download is called "Create ICC-RGB."  I
use this in some workflows to control the printer.  It's an alternative that
allows quite a bit of control over the inks while still using the Epson
driver, which is probably easier for many to use.

Much of the control or mapping of the input values to final densities,
however, is accomplished by a Photoshop curves set that is embedded into the
ICC.  And the hard part is writing these curves.  

The program also includes a linearization routine that allows me to be a bit
less than perfect in my curve writing.  Additionally, the ICC "color
management" systems tie the calibrated monitor and printer together so that
the monitor image will match the printed image.

In your application I'm not sure how much of this would actually operate. 

> I'm not sure how to construct this, since it won't be a linear 
> setup at all. 

While QTR output is "linear," most of the spaces we use are not.  So, while
I was initially thinking the "linearization" stage may not be useful, I'm
not sure about that.  I suspect you could still design a system that could
take advantage of that last step and make your job easier.

At any rate, the basic controls are in writing the curves in Photoshop -- to
be embedded in an ICC or not -- or in QTR.

While I have lots of general information posted on the web, I'm not sure how
applicable any of it would be to your application.  If I had more specifics,
I might be able to be more helpful.  Feel free to contact me off list if you
think this is going to stray too far off topic for this forum.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

masseurwolfe wrote:
> Hi all,
> 
> I am a newbie using QTR for a novel application.  I work in a research 
> lab, and we're printing metals onto a piece of glass using MIS 
> refillable cartridges.  What I'm hoping to do is designate each 
> grayscale value (0 to 255) a combination of specified ink densities 
> from three cartridges.  From what I've been able to gather, I think 
> what I need is an ICC profile, but I may be wrong.  I'm not sure how to 
> construct this, since it won't be a linear setup at all.  Any ideas?
> 
> Thanks,
> Wolfe

If your goal is linear output: Basically none of the quad 
custom solutions discussed here are linear in output. The 
partitioning part of QTR should take care of a 3 partitioned 
ink system. For that you need a transmission densitometer 
that can cope with your metal image on glass (I guess it is 
transparent glass, kind of mask fabrication process ?) and 
apply the data you get from that meter to the method of 
partitioning and linearising as described in some docs for QTR.

If the process you are working on is intended to create 
images for humans then ICC profiling could be a next step 
after linearising the output. It will still be a tricky 
thing as I guess transmitted light will be the white of the 
image and the contrast range will be many times that of the 
usual (gloss) B&W print. More monitor like.

If the process has a totally other purpose like mask 
fabrication for chip lithography (over the top guess :-) 
then linear output should be enough and the best base to 
work with.

-- 
Met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst


|  Dinkla Grafische Techniek  |
|     www.pigment-print.com    |
|             ( unvollendet )            |

On 4/4/08 2:45 AM, "Paul Roark" <paul.roark@...> wrote:
> 
> Hi Wolfe,
> 
>> > ... novel application. I work in a research
>> >lab, and we're printing metals onto a piece of glass
>> >using MIS refillable cartridges.
> 
> That does sound interesting.  I'm curious, among other things, how are you
> keeping metals in suspension?  Some of our typical pigments have some metal
> atoms in the molecule, but most of what I think of as metallic pigments, for
> example that watercolor painters use, would seem to have a specific gravity
> that is so high they'd fall out of suspension rather quickly.
> 
> SNIP
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com
> 
> 
> I would think the particle size in the suspension would be no less an
> important parameter.
> 
> Harry

-- 

Harry F. Lockwood




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Harry Lockwood wrote:

>> I would think the particle size in the suspension would be no less an
>> important parameter.
>

Like:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colloidal_silver

I guess you need a higher density ink however.

But there's another possibility:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silver_nitrate

and a reduction treatment afterwards like used in the past 
in (silver) mirror production.

That's just one metal type.


-- 
Met vriendelijke groeten,  Ernst


|  Dinkla Grafische Techniek  |
|     www.pigment-print.com    |
|             ( unvollendet )            |

>> I would think the particle size in the suspension would be no less an
>> important parameter.

True.

>Like: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colloidal_silver

One quick source indicates particles in a colloid are typically 0.01 to
0.001 of a micron in diameter.  Companies most often claim the inkjet
pigments are about 0.1 micron.  I suspect the size, in fact, varies by
pigment, with the carbon being smaller and the weak magenta being larger
(thus helping to explain why it tends to fall out of suspension).  

> there's another possibility: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silver_nitrate

>and a reduction treatment afterwards like used in the past 
>in (silver) mirror production.

I think Jon is also using a metal-based dye in the Portfolio ink.

Where I was coming from is that there are all sorts of interesting looking
watercolor pigments that are very lightfast, but probably too heavy for us
to use, at least in for form they exist for the watercolor painters.  I
think it would be very interesting if we could access a broader range of
pigments, and tapping into an existing market would probably be the only way
individuals could do it. 

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

On Fri, Apr 4, 2008 at 2:38 AM, Ernst Dinkla <E.Dinkla@...> wrote:

>   masseurwolfe wrote:
> > Hi all,
> >
> > I am a newbie using QTR for a novel application. I work in a research
> > lab, and we're printing metals onto a piece of glass using MIS
> > refillable cartridges. What I'm hoping to do is designate each
> > grayscale value (0 to 255) a combination of specified ink densities
> > from three cartridges. From what I've been able to gather, I think
> > what I need is an ICC profile, but I may be wrong. I'm not sure how to
> > construct this, since it won't be a linear setup at all. Any ideas?
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Wolfe
>
> If your goal is linear output: Basically none of the quad
> custom solutions discussed here are linear in output. The
> partitioning part of QTR should take care of a 3 partitioned
> ink system. For that you need a transmission densitometer
> that can cope with your metal image on glass (I guess it is
> transparent glass, kind of mask fabrication process ?) and
> apply the data you get from that meter to the method of
> partitioning and linearising as described in some docs for QTR.
>
> If the process you are working on is intended to create
> images for humans then ICC profiling could be a next step
> after linearising the output. It will still be a tricky
> thing as I guess transmitted light will be the white of the
> image and the contrast range will be many times that of the
> usual (gloss) B&W print. More monitor like.
>
> If the process has a totally other purpose like mask
> fabrication for chip lithography (over the top guess :-)
> then linear output should be enough and the best base to
> work with.
>
 That is a good guess, but no, we are using this for combinatorial printing
of metal nitrate solutions, then oxidizing them in a furnace.


>
> --
> Met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst
>
> | Dinkla Grafische Techniek |
> | www.pigment-print.com |
> | ( unvollendet ) |
>
> 
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Dear Group,

I have read through the archives, but have not come across anyone who  
has used Epson 9600 with UC (original inkset w. PK ink) on the newer  
Baryta coated fibre papers. Does anyone have a lead on this?
Thanks,

Philipp

> 
> I have read through the archives, but have not come
> across anyone who  has used Epson 9600 with UC 
> (original inkset w. PK ink) on the newer  
> Baryta coated fibre papers. Does anyone have
> a lead on this?
> Thanks,
> 
> Philipp
>

Hi Philipp,

I would also be interested to hear about experience using this setup 
if you have had a chance to test it.

I don't have the Ultrachrome K2 loaded in either of my 7600's right 
now.  I need to switch one of them back to K2 for other reasons.  If 
I get a chance I will test with QTR.

In the meantime, let us know what kind of results you are seeing.  
Unfortunately the K2 ink set is a bit limited. It would be nice to 
have the extra LLK of K3 for these papers.

Best,
Michael

Michael,

Thank you for your response. I was beginning to think I was the only  
one with this setup. I need my machine for color printing as well as  
b/w, so dedicated third party blank ink sets are not an option right  
now.

The paper I have been using is LexJet's Sunset Fibre Elite. Hardly  
any texture and semigloss in finish. I think Epsons newest Baryta  
paper is the same stuff just re-branded and more expensive. I usually  
coat the prints with a couple of layers of Printshield. This takes  
care of gloss differential and minimizes bronzing. The look I'm after  
is fairly warm as you will see with the curves set-up. The best  
results so far I have achieved with the following settings:

CS3 color Management:

     Printer profile QTR-RGB Photo Paper
     Rendering Perceptual
-------------

QTR:

     Mode Quad Tone Rip
     Curve 1 UC-E Ultra Smooth-warm
     Curve 2 UC-EUltraSmooth-Cool

         H          M          S
     40/60   50/50  60/40

     Advanced Adjustments:

     Ink Limits -20
     Gamma +8

Printer Features:

     Media Type Premium Luster Photo

A 21-step wedge prints out w/ proper separation between all the  
patches. A smooth black to white gradient prints well in the  
highlights, 1/4 tones and mid-tones, but could be smoother in the  
lower 3/4 tones and in the deepest shadows. Still the result is  
infinitely better than any toned BW print using custom profile and  
the Epson driver.

I'm new to QTR, so I would appreciate any guidance to improve my  
results.

Thanks,

Philipp



On Apr 9, 2008, at 1:43 PM, Michael T. Murphy wrote:

> >
> > I have read through the archives, but have not come
> > across anyone who has used Epson 9600 with UC
> > (original inkset w. PK ink) on the newer
> > Baryta coated fibre papers. Does anyone have
> > a lead on this?
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Philipp
> >
>
> Hi Philipp,
>
> I would also be interested to hear about experience using this setup
> if you have had a chance to test it.
>
> I don't have the Ultrachrome K2 loaded in either of my 7600's right
> now. I need to switch one of them back to K2 for other reasons. If
> I get a chance I will test with QTR.
>
> In the meantime, let us know what kind of results you are seeing.
> Unfortunately the K2 ink set is a bit limited. It would be nice to
> have the extra LLK of K3 for these papers.
>
> Best,
> Michael
>
>
> 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi All,

I recently started using Ilford Gold Fiber Silk barta type paper with an Epson 2200 using 
the standard UC inkset. I would also be interested in what curves, profiles, etc people are 
using with this combination.

I've been using QTR for several years now, with EEMatte and Moab Entrada papers using 
just the curves supplied with the QTR package.  That time probably disqualifies me as a 
"newby", but maybe "liteby" would apply.  I think QTR is great, even when using just the 
basic features.

I am an intermediate level PS and computer user.  A good part of the technical discussion 
here is a bit intimidating but I am trying to get up on the learning curve as time permits.  
At 68, the state of the art computers when I was a kid were the fire control, mechanical 
computers for the 16" guns on the Iowa class battleships and most telephones didn't have 
dials yet.  

Walk in Beauty,  Bob Gaunt


--- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, Philipp Scholz Rittermann <philipp@...> wrote:

>
> Dear Group,
> 
> I have read through the archives, but have not come across anyone who  
> has used Epson 9600 with UC (original inkset w. PK ink) on the newer  
> Baryta coated fibre papers. Does anyone have a lead on this?
> Thanks,
> 
> Philipp
>