QTR-Quadtone RIP

Yes Keith I understand your struggle to get your head around QTR.   My challenges are based on my very modest tech knowledge and the fact that a lot of QTR documentation, including the Diallo "QTR Workflow" is largely directed at Mac and One-eye users. The Profilemaker software is of course only good for the one-eye and doesn't work with the Spyder3print device.   The Spyder3print User Guide has no documentation that I can find for using it with QTR other than mentioning that it can be done.   

I am using Windows XP and the Spyder3print. Here is what I understand (I think) so far.   This is a distillation of what I have read and experienced.   

The QTR User Guide by Tom Moore is the best source of information for Windows users. It covers installing, printing, creating and editing curves very well.   There are a few pitfalls and changes due to the fact that it is over 5 years old, covers an older version of QTR and he is using a densitometer or scanner for density readings.   The first item to be aware of, as Roy has noted, is that QTR 2.7 has an issue on Windows and it is necessary to install and use an older version 2.6.2 to print out the ink separation page.  

When you have finished working through Tom's very detailed discussion of the Curve Creator process and it is time to print out the QTR 21step.tif  you will find that the steps are  too small to use with the Spyder3print device.  Paul Roark's has made one that works    http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/21-Step.jpg.  He recommends saving it as a Tiff file.   Make a print of this in QTR using your curve and let dry for measuring. 

With the Spyder3print software installed go to:

1. Tools>calibrate and perform the calibration of the device.

2.    Tools>measure    Check QTR Format Override and Linearization.   You must name a file in" Export to".  You can use the printer, inkset, paper and other abbreviations in the name that might be needed.   It will now record your measurement readings from this point on until you press Done.  The data will be saved in  C:\Documents and Settings\[User name\ApplicationData\Datacolor\Spyder3print\Data\Export
 
 You can open the txt file with Excel and graph (Insert>chart>line) the results to see if the curve is smooth.



You can create an ICC for softproofing in Windows.  ICC's are only for softproofing in Windows not for printing.  You must use QTR curves for printing.

There is a file for making ICC profiles as part of the QTR download.  Go to C:\Program Files\QuadToneRIP\Eye-One and copy the file QTR-Create-ICC.exe to your desktop.  

Print out the 21step wedge http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/21-Step.jpg in QTR using the curve or combination of curves you wish to softproof.   Allow to dry and open the Spyder3print software.  

Click on tools>calibrate and perform the calibration of the device.  
Click on Tools>measure.  Check the QTR format override box and Create ICC.  You must name the file in "Export To"   using the printer, inkset, paper and other abbreviations in the name that might be needed.  All of your readings will be recorded from that point on.  When finished hit Done and the info will be saved in C:\Documents and Settings\[User name]\Application Data\Datacolor\Spyder3Print\Data\Export.  I then click on "Open export", highlight the txt file I just created, right click and copy it.  Then paste a copy on the desktop next to the Create ICC icon.  Drag this file on to the Create ICC icon and a ICC profile will pop out.   Mine appears on the other side of the screen so you might have to search for it.  QTR makes a second txt file ending in "out" that can be deleted.  Put the created ICC file in C:\WINDOWS\system32\spool\drivers\color. 

 To softproof in Photoshop CS3 go to View>Proof Setup>Custom and find your profile under "Device to Simulate".  

I hope this  summary might be of some help to Spyder/Windows users.     This is a great program and I am looking forward to some "real" printing after getting this technical stuff figured out.   I have to remember that there was some struggle to learn the zone system and related technology some years ago.  Thanks and apologies to Roy, Tom, Paul and others that I may have read, borrowed from, stole info from etc.    Please feel free to correct any errors.


Joe

> ... I understand your struggle to get your head around QTR. 

I have a very brief write up of how I use the spectro with Windows at http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/Spectro.pdf

This was with XP and an older spectro.  I'll check my new W7 64 bit and new spectro soon to see if anything has changed.


> You can create an ICC for softproofing in Windows.  ICC's are only for softproofing in Windows not for printing.  You must use QTR curves for printing.


Actually, I use Create ICC to make a color managed workflow with the Epson driver.

What I do for the Golden Trout Workshops is step people through a series of workflows that starts with a simple Epson driver workflow, then one that uses an ICC, and finally some approaches to the QTR rip.  See http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/Eb1400.pdf  This was last year's PDF, but the inkset was a bit simpler and what I've actually gone back to for my own uses.


Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Paul 

If I understand correctly there are 5 (?) popular methods of printing black and white that might benefit from the Spyder3print device.

1. I am using QTR with the stock Epson inks on an older 2200 printer  which produces very good results with or without using the Spyder3print device.

2. Spyder3print documentation recommends creating ICCs to print with the stock inks through the Epson driver.  They report good results with modern 3 blacks ink printers but not so good results with older 2 black ink printers.   

3. Using the Spyder3print to create ICCs to print with QTR with aftermarket all gray inks produces very good results.

4. Using the Spyder3print to create ICCs to print with aftermarket all gray inks through the Epson driver which produces very good results.  It is this method that you are currently using.

5. There is also the Epson ABW which can use created ICCs somehow that I am not familiar with.

Is this accurate?

Joe










--- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "Paul" <roark.paul@...> wrote:

>
> 
> > ... I understand your struggle to get your head around QTR. 
> 
> I have a very brief write up of how I use the spectro with Windows at http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/Spectro.pdf
> 
> This was with XP and an older spectro.  I'll check my new W7 64 bit and new spectro soon to see if anything has changed.
> 
> 
> > You can create an ICC for softproofing in Windows.  ICC's are only for softproofing in Windows not for printing.  You must use QTR curves for printing.
> 
> 
> Actually, I use Create ICC to make a color managed workflow with the Epson driver.
> 
> What I do for the Golden Trout Workshops is step people through a series of workflows that starts with a simple Epson driver workflow, then one that uses an ICC, and finally some approaches to the QTR rip.  See http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/Eb1400.pdf  This was last year's PDF, but the inkset was a bit simpler and what I've actually gone back to for my own uses.
> 
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com
>

"jsservices2001" <jnschum@...> wrote:

> Paul 
> 
> If I understand correctly there are 5 (?) popular methods of printing black and white that might benefit from the Spyder3print device.
> 
> 1. I am using QTR with the stock Epson inks on an older 2200 printer  which produces very good results with or without using the Spyder3print device.
> 
> 2. Spyder3print documentation recommends creating ICCs to print with the stock inks through the Epson driver.  They report good results with modern 3 blacks ink printers but not so good results with older 2 black ink printers.

The one LK midtone gray is marginal for B&W.  I doubt the limitation is the spectro. I think the comments about the K2 printers with OEM inks usually is addressing the smoothness and large amount of color used by the Epson driver.  K2 printers make very good dedicated B&W (K7) printers, however.

 
> 3. Using the Spyder3print to create ICCs to print with QTR with aftermarket all gray inks produces very good results.

> 
> 4. Using the Spyder3print to create ICCs to print with aftermarket all gray inks through the Epson driver which produces very good results.  It is this method that you are currently using.


ICC + Epson driver and QTR are my normal workflows.  I prefer to have inksets be Epson driver compatible so that any application can get at least a decent print if needed.  I most often use QTR for my fine art, however.


> 5. There is also the Epson ABW which can use created ICCs somehow that I am not familiar with.


You can linearize the ABW mode workflow with an ICC.

With QTR, the spectro is used for both determining the toner amounts and linearization.

I think the Spyder3 spectro is a good deal.  You can use a flatbed scanner to linearize, but it's not as accurate.  Using a flatbed to get the tones right if you're using QTR with toners is definitely not recommended. 

I actually have not use the new strip reader yet, but this is a full color profiling setup.

By the way, I loaded the new software and updated my brief PDF on this at http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/Spectro.pdf  

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Ok. First, Thank you Joe for your reply. It kind of answers some questions, but raises some more.

--- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "jsservices2001" <jnschum@...> wrote:
>
> The Spyder3print User Guide has no documentation that I can find for using it with QTR other than mentioning that it can be done.
Very true, but David Miller did post a "procedure" on the DataColor_group here in Yahoo, but it too, raised some questions for me.   
   
>   The first item to be aware of, as Roy has noted, is that QTR 2.7 has an issue on Windows and it is necessary to install and use an older version 2.6.2 to print out the ink separation page.

I was aware of this so I still have 2.6.2 loaded.  
> 
> When you have finished working through Tom's very detailed discussion of the Curve Creator process...

Ok. Here is where I start to think I get it and then don't. Is this the part where you print out the ink Calibration page? If so then when I start to measure(with the S3P, I'm not really sure if I'm reading everything right. Maybe I am, but how can I tell?

 ...and it is time to print out the QTR 21step.tif  you will find that the steps are  too small to use with the Spyder3print device.

I brought the QTR 21 step wedge(found in the program file) into PS and it measures 2x7.675. That sould be plenty big to measure. But does it get printed out in PS or through QTR. If through QTR, then it could be brought into PS, saved as an untagged tiff and then called up, but I'm only guessing. I would imagine that the file needs to printed with no color management. In the print dialog in PS, setting the printer to color manage and the selecting "No Color Management" in the Epson dialog would do this would it not?



  Make a print of this in QTR using your curve....
What curve?

 
> With the Spyder3print software installed go to:
>  You can open the txt file with Excel and graph (Insert>chart>line) the results to see if the curve is smooth.

Ok. I have Excel, but have never used it and don't know how(or I'm not doing it correctly). I have Excel 2007. What is the data suppose to look like?

To me, there seems to be a lot of assumptions made. Kind of reminds me of the old Steve Martin routine of how not to pay taxes on a million dollars. First, get a million dollars......

Don't get me wrong. I really appreciate someone coming forward and handholding me through this. I really want to understand QTR, but I don't know if I'm asking the right questions and getting them answered or only making it more difficult than it should be. But please, let me know if I'm on the right track. I'm willing to take baby steps, but I'm itching to start running. Again thank you so very much.

As an aside. I am not using all Epson inks, nor am I using all shades of grey(i.e. Jon Cone's peizo inks or MIS inks) but rather a hybrid of Jon Cone's ConeColor and his Selenium shades for the LK & LLK, along with the Epson PK.

Joe, This is from Eric Chan's website:
http://people.csail.mit.edu/ericchan/dp/Epson3800/printworkflow.html
Scroll down until you come to this:
How to print B&W images with the ABW driver (with ABW profiles)
He's refering to ICC profiles through the ABW driver.

Eric Chan is madmanchan on many forums. He is an engineer for Adobe working on PS, ACR and LR.

--- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "jsservices2001" <jnschum@...> wrote:

> Paul 
> 
> If I understand correctly there are 5 (?) popular methods of printing black and white that might benefit from the Spyder3print device.
> 5. There is also the Epson ABW which can use created ICCs somehow that I am not familiar with.
> 
> Is this accurate?
> 
> Joe
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "Paul" <roark.paul@> wrote:
> >
> > 
> > > ... I understand your struggle to get your head around QTR. 
> > 
> > I have a very brief write up of how I use the spectro with Windows at http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/Spectro.pdf
> > 
> > This was with XP and an older spectro.  I'll check my new W7 64 bit and new spectro soon to see if anything has changed.
> > 
> > 
> > > You can create an ICC for softproofing in Windows.  ICC's are only for softproofing in Windows not for printing.  You must use QTR curves for printing.
> > 
> > 
> > Actually, I use Create ICC to make a color managed workflow with the Epson driver.
> > 
> > What I do for the Golden Trout Workshops is step people through a series of workflows that starts with a simple Epson driver workflow, then one that uses an ICC, and finally some approaches to the QTR rip.  See http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/Eb1400.pdf  This was last year's PDF, but the inkset was a bit simpler and what I've actually gone back to for my own uses.
> > 
> > 
> > Paul
> > www.PaulRoark.com
> >
>

"As an aside. I am not using all Epson inks, nor am I using all shades of grey(i.e. Jon Cone's peizo inks or MIS inks) but rather a hybrid of Jon Cone's ConeColor and his Selenium shades for the LK & LLK, along with the Epson PK."

If that is a stock Cone ink setup he should have basic curves available.  If its not a stock setup you are on your own.  I am just at the basic level so I'm using factory inks that QTR has stock curves for.  I can just print with them or try to improve them.  


Thanks for the mention of the Datacolor group I was unaware of it.


"  ...and it is time to print out the QTR 21step.tif  you will find that the steps are  too small to use with the Spyder3print device. I brought the QTR 21 step wedge(found in the program file) into PS and it measures 2x7.675. That sould be plenty big to measure.  "

Its not the overall size but the size of the steps.  The measuring portion of the device is rather large relative to the steps.   The larger Paul Roark step wedge works well.
 

" But does it get printed out in PS or through QTR." 

Print out in QTR using your curve.

 
 " Make a print of this in QTR using your curve....
 What curve?"
 
There are stock curves provided by QTR.  I use the ones for my stock inks and EEM paper.  With your combination of inks I don't know where to start.  Sounds like an advanced situation.  If Cone doesn't have curves for your inkset, starting with a basic inkset that has stock QTR curves would make things much easier for you to learn on.

  
" With the Spyder3print software installed go to:
 You can open the txt file with Excel and graph (Insert>chart>line) the results to see if the curve is smooth.
 
 Ok. I have Excel, but have never used it and don't know how(or I'm not doing it correctly). I have Excel 2007. What is the data suppose to look like?"

More experienced users than I will have to comment on that.  I only know that the L data should be a straight line.

--- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "jsservices2001" <jnschum@...> wrote:
> If its not a stock setup you are on your own.

I was afraid someone would say that.

I am just at the basic level so I'm using factory inks that QTR has stock curves for.  I can just print with them or try to improve them.  

As far as QTR is concerned, so am I.

> Thanks for the mention of the Datacolor group I was unaware of it.

I'd like to think we're here to help one another so I was pasing on the info!
 
> Its not the overall size but the size of the steps.  The measuring portion of the device is rather large relative to the steps.   The larger Paul Roark step wedge works well.

Measuring the area they are about (or slightly larger than) 3/4" square. Plenty big for the nose of the S3P
 

>  
> There are stock curves provided by QTR.  I use the ones for my stock inks and EEM paper.  With your combination of inks I don't know where to start.  Sounds like an advanced situation.  If Cone doesn't have curves for your inkset, starting with a basic inkset that has stock QTR curves would make things much easier for you to learn on.

The inks set that Jon Cone and I put together has his Selenium #4 & 5 which are completely opposite of a standard Epson K3 LK & LLK. Epson Lk & LLK have a lot of green in them(and you use a lot of LM to get more neutral) where as the Selenium shades are blue. I wonder if I should be starting with a warm curve? Anyone have an insight as to where to begin? 
   
>  Ok. I have Excel, but have never used it and don't know how(or I'm not doing it correctly). I have Excel 2007. What is the data suppose to look like?"
> 
> More experienced users than I will have to comment on that.  I only know that the L data should be a straight line.

That's more than I knew.

Thanks again.
>