All about the Roland Jupiter-series

From: unknown freak [mailto:modularcharles@excite.com]
Sent: Monday, January 29, 2001 5:34 PM
To: ModularMoog
Cc: analogue@...
Subject: Re: [AH] JP-8 and more / VA sound quality


On Mon, 29 Jan 2001 14:58:20 +0100, ModularMoog wrote:

>  The truth is that there are a lot of new stuff beeing made which play´s
the
>  shit out of (most) analogue gear. There is only one right way for
companies
>  like Roland... VA synths, with today´s specs... and to improve algorythms
>  and all that shit.

And now a completely unnecessary renewing of an endless rant.

I wish I could agree that VA "plays the shit out of (most) analogue gear." 
That's not what my ears tell me.  I'm absolutely not dogmatic about this --
I really do look forward to the day when DSP speed and power and algorithms
in the VA puppies give anything really similar to an analog sound -- but it
seems to me that probably the stairsteps are still *way* too far apart and
brittle, and that all sorts of behaviors of analog circuits aren't yet being
modelled at all, all kinds of intermodulation, distortion, and so on --
things that render the various sides of an analog sound into a somehow a
convincing *whole*, with everything in fluid interrelationship.  A VA
filtersweep, or the shading in of resonance on a modelled resonating filter
is to me one of the most confoundingly disappointing and almost embarassing
experiences imaginable, even on the best of them.  It drives me straight up
a tree.  It's simply godawful.  I wouldn't put the best of them up against a
Micromoog, at least in that respect.

Yes, they can do wonderful things, but somehow overall the sound just
doesn't radiate authenticity ... yet.  This is a hard thing to define, and
one I shouldn't belabor.  But against the potential argument that one
shouldn't judge digital sounds against an antiquated analog precursor,
insisting that they're "good" only to the degree that they resemble the
familiar precursor sound, when in fact digital sounds ought to be considered
to have their own validity -- it's all *sound*, after all -- all i can say
is, I tend to think that *any* sound that lacks some kind of essential
wholeness will be musically unpersuasive and strangely disappointing.  And
that's the sound quality I associate peculiarly with VAs ... so far.  I
fully expect they'll get there someday.

>  Bring your JP-8 to a friend with i.ex the Virus TDM plug-in and play them
>  side by side... I think you´re about to experience a minor shock!.

I don't.

>  Of course, a synth has physical sliders and knobs but the real deal here
is
>  that sliders dont count, sounds does... or.... _music_ does.

Both count.  Sliders are *massively* important (real or MIDI).  And I
suspect the Virus plug-in doesn't put up much of a fight on the audio score.
But it may be fun.

>  Something very good is going on today.... _computers/va/DSP_ and it will
>  only grow in the future.

Agreed.
  
>  I know there is a huge risk letting my thoughts out this way but please
do
>  not read this as a "analog sux" or something because I _do_ own a encore
>  electronics midified JP-8 and I love it very much, but the thing is that
>  (some) of the va´s out today are competing very good with old great
synths
>  and the production cost is ??? 1/1000 ??? and on top of this you get midi
>  and all that from (wherever-you-want-to-your-arse :-O

I don't read it as "analog sux".  For a working musician, ease of use and
pricetag are really important factors.

>  This is what _musicians_ want... there is no room for collectors.

*Some* musicians, my friend.  And suggesting that people who play old
analogs are essentially "collectors" is as silly as saying that guitarists
who buy Fender amps are "collectors" .  They're just taking responsibility
for their own ears.





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From: unknown freak [mailto:modularcharles@excite.com]
Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2001 12:17 AM
To: ModularMoog
Cc: analogue@...
Subject: Re: [AH] JP-8 and more / VA sound quality


On Mon, 29 Jan 2001 19:07:33 +0100, ModularMoog wrote:

>  on 29/01/01 17:34, unknown freak at modularcharles@... wrote:
>  
>  > Both count.  Sliders are *massively* important (real or MIDI).  And I
>  > suspect the Virus plug-in doesn't put up much of a fight on the audio
score.
>  > But it may be fun.
>  
>  Might also be used for the best track ever produced.... as long as you´re
>  the right person to produce the track.
>  
>  What was it J-M Jarre once used?... Casio RAPMAN??

No argument there -- sort of depends on what sort of sound you find
inspiring.  An interesting patch on almost anything can be inspiring, even
if or *because* a sound is somehow pathetic and wrong.  That's all valid. 
But the richer, more alive, and more interesting the sound is, the better
stuff you'll probably be inspired to make with it.  I mean, how much
orchestral music would have been *written* if all orchestras sounded like
high school orchestras?

>  It mostly has to do with how good you´re behind the mixing desk.... This
is
>  where it really happens.

True.  That's also how they turn Madonna into a singer.  But if a VA sounds
good with the right mixing and compressing, an even better-sounding synth
should be downright spectacular (though perhaps also spectacularly devoid of
patch memory).

>  It´s like with the TB-303 in the 90´s... _most_ people could not get a
>  single note sound good.... while some made fantastic tracks with it... I
>  think it´s the same with the VA powered machines today, it´s just that
>  people do not want to accept or even understand how good they really can
be.

One unfortunate fact here is that when you're simply *playing* the thing,
it's not in some glorious mix.  It's just whatever it is.  And often that's
just a little uninspiring -- so if you're looking for music in the sounds,
and you're accustomed to pure analog, it could be a different experience. 
Then again you might hit some exotic fabulous patch and be over the moon.  

I'm dealing in intangibles here -- sound quality and something's character
of being "inspiring" -- very individual.  But however important it is to
accept and respect what's been done with VAs to date, it's probably even
more vital to keep comparing VA sound very critically with analog, and keep
demanding that the VA instrument be pushed until it comes alive in that same
special way.  (And I mean that *under* the hood.)  If the show's good with
taxidermy puppets, think how great it'll be with actual living animals.

>  And heeey!!... they have even given them sliders and knobs!!!...
>  That´s far better than all those PCM synths with stinking LCD´s and silly
>  piano samples :-)

That's really apples and oranges, but yes.





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From: Paul Nagle [mailto:paul@...]
Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2001 9:28 AM
To: Analogue Heaven
Subject: Re: [AH] JP-8 and more / VA sound quality


On Mon, 29 Jan 2001 15:17:11 -0800 (PST), unknown freak
<modularcharles@...> wrote:

>If the show's good with
>taxidermy puppets, think how great it'll be with actual living animals.

You can take liberties with puppets that would not be
possible/practical/moral/legal with animals... ;)

Paul

-----------------------------------------------------
Paul Nagle    /  SoftRoom   /  HeadShock   /  FFS      
softroom@...  http://www.softroom.co.uk
paul@...        http://www.headshock.co.uk
-----------------------------------------------------
"Of all the tyrannies a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its 
victims may be the most oppressive."   - C.S. Lewis

From: ModularMoog [mailto:modularmoog@hotmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2001 12:08 PM
To: Verschut, Ricardo; AH
Subject: Re: [AH] JP-8 and more / VA sound quality


on 30/01/01 09:29, Verschut, Ricardo at Ricardo.Verschut@...
wrote:

> Hence the fact I stil don't accept offers on my JP8... ;-)

Same goes for me, heheh... all ready received one offer :-O

But for god sake... to you people who use MIDI and own a JP-8... get
the JP-8 MIDI KIT from Encore Electronics... No I where not paid to say
this but the company deserve to sell even more, simply excellent stuff, used
it since 1996/97 and I would rather sell the synth before I sold the kit.

I´m a little dissapointed though because I have been waiting for the upgrade
for some time now which enables me to send/receive all parameters MIDI.

Regards.
Henning.