Bc2000 (for the BCF2000 & BCR2000)

Hi,

I'm getting my bcr-2000 in the next couple of days, mainly so I can
have hands on control of my Roland MKS-50 (rackmount Juno).

I'm having a bit of trouble visualising all the midi connections, and
think I may need another midi splitter device for it all to work.

I have (or will have) :

MKS-50 (IN OUT THRU)
BCR-2000 (IN OUT THRU/OUT)
Keyboard (OUT)
Presonus Firestudio Comp Interface (IN OUT)

I'd like to be able to tweak the MKS-50 via the BCR-2000 while playing
on my keyboard.  

Can this work? :
Keyboard OUT-> BCR2000 IN
BCR2000 THRU/OUT -> Firestudio IN (does this include the input passed
to it as well as the actual output of the BCR tweaks?)
Firestudio OUT -> MKS-50 IN (using midi-yoke or something to do the
routing)

It seems like the problem will be with the bcr2000 thru/out.   Will I
need a device that takes two inputs (bcr and keyboard) and spits out
one output that I can feed directly to the mks-50?

The BCR2000 can do that all by itself. It has integrated midi merge
capabilities. You should download the manual to familiarize yourself
with the different modes. 

--- In bc2000@yahoogroups.com, "bryantabuteau" <bryan@...> wrote:

>
> Hi,
> 
> I'm getting my bcr-2000 in the next couple of days, mainly so I can
> have hands on control of my Roland MKS-50 (rackmount Juno).
> 
> I'm having a bit of trouble visualising all the midi connections, and
> think I may need another midi splitter device for it all to work.
> 
> I have (or will have) :
> 
> MKS-50 (IN OUT THRU)
> BCR-2000 (IN OUT THRU/OUT)
> Keyboard (OUT)
> Presonus Firestudio Comp Interface (IN OUT)
> 
> I'd like to be able to tweak the MKS-50 via the BCR-2000 while playing
> on my keyboard.  
> 
> Can this work? :
> Keyboard OUT-> BCR2000 IN
> BCR2000 THRU/OUT -> Firestudio IN (does this include the input passed
> to it as well as the actual output of the BCR tweaks?)
> Firestudio OUT -> MKS-50 IN (using midi-yoke or something to do the
> routing)
> 
> It seems like the problem will be with the bcr2000 thru/out.   Will I
> need a device that takes two inputs (bcr and keyboard) and spits out
> one output that I can feed directly to the mks-50?
>

--- In bc2000@yahoogroups.com, "bryantabuteau" <bryan@...> wrote:
> I have (or will have) :
> 
> MKS-50 (IN OUT THRU)
> BCR-2000 (IN OUT THRU/OUT)
> Keyboard (OUT)
> Presonus Firestudio Comp Interface (IN OUT)

Why don't you plug the BC20000 through USB ? Instead of consumming one 
midi entry, it will give you one more...

To allow playing without computer:
-  Keyboard Out to BCR In
-  BCR Out to MKS-50 In

To allow midi recording in the computer, and MKS-50 sound edition 
through software, add:
-  BCR-USB to Computer

--- In bc2000@yahoogroups.com, "bernard.escaillas" <escaillas@...> wrote:
>
> --- In bc2000@yahoogroups.com, "bryantabuteau" <bryan@> wrote:
> > I have (or will have) :
> > 
> > MKS-50 (IN OUT THRU)
> > BCR-2000 (IN OUT THRU/OUT)
> > Keyboard (OUT)
> > Presonus Firestudio Comp Interface (IN OUT)
> 
> Why don't you plug the BC20000 through USB ? Instead of consumming one 
> midi entry, it will give you one more...
> 
> To allow playing without computer:
> -  Keyboard Out to BCR In
> -  BCR Out to MKS-50 In
> 
> To allow midi recording in the computer, and MKS-50 sound edition 
> through software, add:
> -  BCR-USB to Computer
>

Cheers guys, got the unit yesterday, read the manual and got it all
sorted.  She's a complex little beast.  Just a note for anyone that
uses the MKS-50 template file, its set to use channel 2 (this took me
a while to figure out).   Now, to save someone else the time (or to
prove me stupid) to use this, I had to delve into the midi/sysex
implementation manual to figure out what knob was mapped to what
function.  Is there a standardised config file that I can create and
upload that would save someone else the time this took?  (or did
someone already do this and I missed it?)  I saw a note in the BC
Manager about a device ini file - is this the direction I should be
looking?

--- In bc2000@yahoogroups.com, "bryantabuteau" <bryan@...> wrote:
> to save someone else the time (or to
> prove me stupid) to use this, I had to delve into the midi/sysex
> implementation manual to figure out what knob was mapped to what
> function.  Is there a standardised config file that I can create and
> upload that would save someone else the time this took?  (or did
> someone already do this and I missed it?)  I saw a note in the BC
> Manager about a device ini file - is this the direction I should be
> looking?

Since the MKS-50 is a Roland device, I assume that it maps its
parameters via Roland's standard DT1 SysEx protocol. If this is the
case, it might indeed be a good idea to write a "SysEx model
definition file" for BC Manager.

Of course you could do without this by "simply" writing each and every
encoder's "custom output" SysEx message manually, but the SysEx model
definition file will simplify things greatly for you during preset
creation:

Basically, you just have to copy the list of parameter names plus
their addresses and ranges from the MKS's SysEx implementation manual
to the definition file. (You may take a look at GS-10.ini for the
general idea; you should use Roland.ini as a template.)
BC Manager will then construct the FULL message whenever you want to
assign a parameter to a knob: you just select the parameter by NAME,
and bingo!
So whereas the creation of the SysEx model definition file is a bit of
extra work, once you have it you don't ever have to worry about SysEx
parameter details any more.

See the section on "SysEx model definition files" in BC Manager's
manual for further details.

Good luck!
(And if you succeed, please put the ini fine in the Yahoo group's file
section!)

Mark.

--- In bc2000@yahoogroups.com, "Mark van den Berg" <markwinvdb@...> wrote:
> 
> Since the MKS-50 is a Roland device, I assume that it maps its
> parameters via Roland's standard DT1 SysEx protocol. If this is the
> case, it might indeed be a good idea to write a "SysEx model
> definition file" for BC Manager.
> 
> Of course you could do without this by "simply" writing each and every
> encoder's "custom output" SysEx message manually, but the SysEx model
> definition file will simplify things greatly for you during preset
> creation:
> 
> Basically, you just have to copy the list of parameter names plus
> their addresses and ranges from the MKS's SysEx implementation manual
> to the definition file. (You may take a look at GS-10.ini for the
> general idea; you should use Roland.ini as a template.)
> BC Manager will then construct the FULL message whenever you want to
> assign a parameter to a knob: you just select the parameter by NAME,
> and bingo!
> So whereas the creation of the SysEx model definition file is a bit of
> extra work, once you have it you don't ever have to worry about SysEx
> parameter details any more.
> 
> See the section on "SysEx model definition files" in BC Manager's
> manual for further details.
> 
> Good luck!
> (And if you succeed, please put the ini fine in the Yahoo group's file
> section!)
> 
> Mark.
>

Cheers for the head start.

--- In bc2000@yahoogroups.com, "Mark van den Berg" <markwinvdb@...> wrote:
> 
> Since the MKS-50 is a Roland device, I assume that it maps its
> parameters via Roland's standard DT1 SysEx protocol. If this is the
> case, it might indeed be a good idea to write a "SysEx model
> definition file" for BC Manager.
> 
> Of course you could do without this by "simply" writing each and every
> encoder's "custom output" SysEx message manually, but the SysEx model
> definition file will simplify things greatly for you during preset
> creation:
> 
> Basically, you just have to copy the list of parameter names plus
> their addresses and ranges from the MKS's SysEx implementation manual
> to the definition file. (You may take a look at GS-10.ini for the
> general idea; you should use Roland.ini as a template.)
> BC Manager will then construct the FULL message whenever you want to
> assign a parameter to a knob: you just select the parameter by NAME,
> and bingo!
> So whereas the creation of the SysEx model definition file is a bit of
> extra work, once you have it you don't ever have to worry about SysEx
> parameter details any more.
> 
> See the section on "SysEx model definition files" in BC Manager's
> manual for further details.
> 
> Good luck!
> (And if you succeed, please put the ini fine in the Yahoo group's file
> section!)
> 
> Mark.
>

After a lot of confusion, It doesn't look like the MKS-50 SysEx maps
to the Roland standard :(  the bytes certainly don't match up from the
MKS-50 implementation and the other Roland examples I've seen around
the place, and I can't force the ini to create the sequence I need.  
Oh well.

--- In bc2000@yahoogroups.com, "bryantabuteau" <bryan@...> wrote:
> After a lot of confusion, It doesn't look like the MKS-50 SysEx maps
> to the Roland standard :(  the bytes certainly don't match up from the
> MKS-50 implementation and the other Roland examples I've seen around
> the place, and I can't force the ini to create the sequence I need.

That's funny... In my experience Roland MIDI devices are pretty
consistent in their SysEx format.

Do you have a file of the MKS-50's full MIDI implementation details?
If so, you could send me a copy so I can have a look.

Mark.

Well, the sysex and .bc2 preset file for the MKS-50 already exist, so
I don't think I can really contribute anything here.   I was looking
for a way of remapping controls and changing the layout easily, and as
far as I'm aware, the ini file was the only easy way to do that?

For the moment, unless I see another way of doing it, i'll just use
the .bc2 preset as it stands.

--- In bc2000@yahoogroups.com, Robert Krueger <robert.krueger@...> wrote:
>
> Are you going to do it parameter by parameter then, or are you going
to drop
> the project?  I have an MKS-50 too, just got a BCR and I'm about to
tackle

> programming for a Blofeld, Evolver, and MKS-50.
> 
> Right now I'm trying to organize the best layout for that.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Thu, Jan 29, 2009 at 3:57 AM, bryantabuteau <bryan@...> wrote:
> 
> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> 
> > -
> > >
> >
> > After a lot of confusion, It doesn't look like the MKS-50 SysEx maps
> > to the Roland standard :( the bytes certainly don't match up from the
> > MKS-50 implementation and the other Roland examples I've seen around
> > the place, and I can't force the ini to create the sequence I need.
> > Oh well.
> >
> >
>

Well, I've already gone through in the BC Manager and added comments
to each line when I was working it out for myself.  Is there a way of
me exporting that so you can save some time?

The layout that the MKS-50 .bc2 file has is okay, but I'd move the
portamento time so it was immediately available without having to
switch the top encoders.

--- In bc2000@yahoogroups.com, Robert Krueger <robert.krueger@...> wrote:
>
> Unfortunately, that setup is not documented.  The .bc2 file has no
comments
> so I have no idea what is programmed to what w/o having to go lookup
in the
> sysex table for the MKS-50 and match it to the entry in the .BC2.
> 
> I plan to tackle this myself as a learning project either way. If
you have
> an idea of a good layout for which parameters to which knobs, I'm
open to
> your suggestions. I'm trying to see what's the best logical layout
right now
> on a paper template.
> 
> On Thu, Jan 29, 2009 at 3:26 PM, bryantabuteau <bryan@...> wrote:
> 
> >   Well, the sysex and .bc2 preset file for the MKS-50 already
exist, so
> > I don't think I can really contribute anything here. I was looking
> > for a way of remapping controls and changing the layout easily, and as
> > far as I'm aware, the ini file was the only easy way to do that?
> >
> > For the moment, unless I see another way of doing it, i'll just use
> > the .bc2 preset as it stands.
> >
> >
> > --- In bc2000@yahoogroups.com <bc2000%40yahoogroups.com>, Robert
Krueger
> > <robert.krueger@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Are you going to do it parameter by parameter then, or are you going
> > to drop
> > > the project? I have an MKS-50 too, just got a BCR and I'm about to
> > tackle
> > > programming for a Blofeld, Evolver, and MKS-50.
> > >
> > > Right now I'm trying to organize the best layout for that.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Thu, Jan 29, 2009 at 3:57 AM, bryantabuteau <bryan@> wrote:
> > >
> > >
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> > >
> > > > -
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > After a lot of confusion, It doesn't look like the MKS-50
SysEx maps
> > > > to the Roland standard :( the bytes certainly don't match up
from the
> > > > MKS-50 implementation and the other Roland examples I've seen
around
> > > > the place, and I can't force the ini to create the sequence I
need.

> > > > Oh well.
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >  
> >
>

--- In bc2000@yahoogroups.com, Robert Krueger <robert.krueger@...> wrote:
> It's in the User Manual,  here's a link to the PDF
> http://www.retrosynth.com/docs/mks50/mks50_user.pdf

Thanks!

I hadn't realized that the MKS-50 is THAT old: 1986! Related to its
old age, its sysex format is indeed completely unlike the standard
Roland sysex format they've used since around 1988 for probably all
their equipment.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but from my quick scan I've gathered that the
relevant individual parameter format the MKS accepts is:

F0 = Exclusive
41 = Roland
36 = IPR (individual parameter)
0n = Device (Unit #/basic channel)
23 = Model: MKS-50
20 or 30 = Tone or Patch
01 = Group
pp vv [...] = sequence of Parameter + Value
F7 = End of exclusive

The later standard Roland format (and the one used by BC Manager
concerning its SyxEx model definition files) is:

F0 = Exclusive
41 = Roland
nn = Device
nn [...] = Model
12 = DT1 (Data Set 1)
nn [..] = Parameter
nn [..] = Value
nn = Checksum
F7 = EOX

So it's similar, but not identical.

I don't think it would be worthwhile having BC Manager's SysEx model
definition file format support the MKS-50. The number of parameters on
the MKS isn't that big, and the MKS format luckily doesn't even
include a checksum!

Mark.

--- In bc2000@yahoogroups.com, Robert Krueger <robert.krueger@...> wrote:
> Can you elaborate what you mean here? What method would be the best?
> 
>     I don't think it would be worthwhile having BC Manager's SysEx model
>     definition file format support the MKS-50. The number of
parameters on
>     the MKS isn't that big, and the MKS format luckily doesn't even
>     include a checksum!

I was arguing that BC Manager's SysEx model definition file format
currently doesn't support the MKS, but that this isn't a serious
problem: in my (very limited) understanding of the MKS, it should be
easy to define a list of fixed "custom output" (".tx") messages for
every MKS parameter:

If I'm not mistaken, a SysEx message for a single parameter on the MKS is:

Tone parameter:
$F0 $41 $36 <Unit> $23 $20 $01 <Parameter address> <Value> $F7

Patch parameter:
$F0 $41 $36 <Unit> $23 $30 $01 <Parameter address> <Value> $F7

Obviously, on the BCF/BCR, you want e.g. the encoder's position to
translate to the parameter value on the MKS. So you have to use "val"
in the custom output definition for <Value>; and presumably $0n can be
set to $00 for most people. That then leaves only $pp to be replaced
with an actual number for every parameter - it should be easy to set
up a BCF/BCR preset that simply "lists" all the parameters.

So e.g. the parameter at address 0 in the tone area would require the
following custom output line in BC Manager:

$F0 $41 $36 $00 $23 $20 $01 $00 val $F7

Didn't you or (someone else) mention that there already exist BCF/BCR
presets for the MKS - so don't these work in the same way?

Mark.