Bc2000 (for the BCF2000 & BCR2000)

Hi, I've successfully gotten my BCF to send NRPN parameter value changes to my Micron using the knobs and faders, but I can't get the buttons to work...

I'd like to be able to use the BC buttons as incremental switches for Micron parameters that are "switch-type" rather than "continuous"... For example, the wavetype parameter has 0,1,2 for sine/saw/pulse.  I can easily set the knobs/faders using 14bit to increment these values, but when I choose a button that increments these values, nothing happens on the Micron.

I suspect that the Micron needs to hear NRPN 14bit resolution command changes to respond.  The buttons appear to only send up to 127, which is 7bit commands, correct?

I hit upon an idea to somehow use MIDI CC's 98 and 99, the NRPN LSB/MSB parameters, to somehow send the needed commands using several button presses.  Ideally, I'd like to set one button up to call up the parameter change (OSC1 wavetype), and then a second button above it to increment that value one at a time (cycling thru sin/saw/pulse/sin/saw...)

Is this possible?  Is there another workaround to get the buttons to transmit NRPNs?

The Micron has tons of parameters, and I've already used up all my
faders and all 4 encoder groups on my BCF:

faders 1-8 ==> (filt1) freq, res, env amt, type, (filt2) ditto

encoder 1-8, grp1 ==> Env1 parameters (amp ADSR and slopes)

... grp2 ==> Env2 parameters (filt env ADSR and slopes)

... grp3 ==> (Osc1-3) waveform, waveshape, FM amt and type

... grp4 ==> (Osc1-3) level, balance, filter series (f1==>f2), filt2
offset



And still I yearn for more -- individual OSC detune, LFO knobs, OSC
sync, noise, FX parameters...  I did look over rpcfender's BCsecrets
pdf, and it looks like I *could* somehow use custom .tx commands to make
a button send 14 bit NRPNs, so I could have access to one-button
goodness like drive type, ENV loop, waveform and env slope selects...

I'm going to just splurge and buy a BCR to use with my BCF.  If anyone
still has hints on how to use BC buttons to send 14bit NRPN, or else why
the Micron only listens to the BC's continuous controls but ignores the
button 'switches', I'm still all ears.  Thanks.

Oh, btw, in case anyone else is trying this to control their Micron as
well, make sure you have the BC unit in standalone modes one or three
(S-1 or S-3), accessed by EDIT + STORE  + Encoder1...  I haven't gotten
any other modes to work, although I suspect a couple USB modes would
also work if you were to go THRU the computer back out to the BC and
continuing to the Micron.

Hi,
this is one problem that can be solved by even front panel editing.
Hold EDIT, press top left non-encoder button. Displays "b 33"
Rotate first encoder till the display is "nrPn"
Second encoder for the channel (try ch 1)
Third encoder is the controller number (try 9)
4th is the max value when using increment(try 4)
5th is the min when using increment (try 0) 
6th is the mode -set to 'InC' for increment 
7th is the increment step size - leave it at 1
and you are done - press edit again

The ordinary Midi Controller message consists of 3 bytes
$Bn Controller number  Value (n is the channel 0 to F (1 to 16))
$ means the number is in hex $B0 = controller message on channel 1 - the other numbers are just decimal.

$B0 7 23  - set the volume on channel 1 to be 23


NRPN can use 14 bit numbers for both the controller number and the value
eg
$B0 99 0   ; the NRPN controller number MSB
$B0 98 9   ; the NRPN controller number LSB
$B0 38 0   ; the NRPN value MSB
$B0  6 4   ; the NRPN value LSB

but we can drop the value MSB for a smaller range of values
$B0 99 0   ; the NRPN controller number MSB
$B0 98 9   ; the NRPN controller number LSB
$B0  6 4   ; the NRPN value LSB
and this is what the BC uses

If you need to use 14 bit values then you need to use a tx method.


Output from our button edit
$B0 99 0
$B0 98 9   
$B0  6 0   
$B0 99 0
$B0 98 9   
$B0  6 1
$B0 99 0
$B0 98 9   
$B0  6 2   
$B0 99 0
$B0 98 9   
$B0  6 3   
$B0 99 0
$B0 98 9   
$B0  6 4   
$B0 99 0
$B0 98 9   
$B0  6 0 ; back to 0   

If you need more help let me know what the Midi messages you want to send.
Perhaps the Micron will output the message when you edit it on the synth itself?
You could use MidiOx (free program) to see what it is outputting.
Cut and paste it to a new post here.

All the best

Royce

--- In bc2000@yahoogroups.com, "psionic11" <psionic11@...> wrote:

>
> 
> The Micron has tons of parameters, and I've already used up all my
> faders and all 4 encoder groups on my BCF:
> 
> faders 1-8 ==> (filt1) freq, res, env amt, type, (filt2) ditto
> 
> encoder 1-8, grp1 ==> Env1 parameters (amp ADSR and slopes)
> 
> ... grp2 ==> Env2 parameters (filt env ADSR and slopes)
> 
> ... grp3 ==> (Osc1-3) waveform, waveshape, FM amt and type
> 
> ... grp4 ==> (Osc1-3) level, balance, filter series (f1==>f2), filt2
> offset
> 
> 
> 
> And still I yearn for more -- individual OSC detune, LFO knobs, OSC
> sync, noise, FX parameters...  I did look over rpcfender's BCsecrets
> pdf, and it looks like I *could* somehow use custom .tx commands to make
> a button send 14 bit NRPNs, so I could have access to one-button
> goodness like drive type, ENV loop, waveform and env slope selects...
> 
> I'm going to just splurge and buy a BCR to use with my BCF.  If anyone
> still has hints on how to use BC buttons to send 14bit NRPN, or else why
> the Micron only listens to the BC's continuous controls but ignores the
> button 'switches', I'm still all ears.  Thanks.
> 
> Oh, btw, in case anyone else is trying this to control their Micron as
> well, make sure you have the BC unit in standalone modes one or three
> (S-1 or S-3), accessed by EDIT + STORE  + Encoder1...  I haven't gotten
> any other modes to work, although I suspect a couple USB modes would
> also work if you were to go THRU the computer back out to the BC and
> continuing to the Micron.
>

First of all, many thanks for the quick reply and for all the previous work you've done for the community so far.  Yesterday was a great learning day for my Alesis Micron and my BCF2000.  I've read your BCsecrets.pdf, read all your info .rtfs in your BCR editor, and your post from the German WIKI site regarding .easypar in the BC control language.

Using MIDI-OX, I've captured what happens when I try to change the Micron's filter1 type (NRPN 43).

1) using the Micron's KnobX
2) using a BCF fader
3) using a BCF button


==================================
1) using the Micron's KnobX

For the first case, MIDI-OX shows 4 events happening for each increment of the Micron KnobX.  Two NRPN events (MIDI CCs 98 and 99), and two Data Entry events (MIDI CCs 6 and 38).

ST  D1 D2 CH -- event

177 99  0 2  -- CC: NRPN MSB
177 98 43 2  -- CC: NRPN LSB
177  6  0 2  -- CC: DATA ENTRY
177 38  7 2  -- CC: DATA ENTRY

177 99  0 2  -- CC: NRPN MSB
177 98 43 2  -- CC: NRPN LSB
177  6  0 2  -- CC: DATA ENTRY
177 38  8 2  -- CC: DATA ENTRY

As I rotate the KnobX, each increment updates only the last line in the 4-event chunk; the first 3 lines remain the same.  The D2 field ranges from 0 to 20, which corresponds to the Microns 20 filter types (0= bypass).

177 38  0 2  -- CC: DATA ENTRY  (0 = filter bypass)
177 38  1 2  -- CC: DATA ENTRY  (1 = oberheim 2p LPF)
177 38  2 2  -- CC: DATA ENTRY  (2 = tb-303 3p LPF)
177 38  3 2  -- CC: DATA ENTRY  (3 = moog 4p LPF)
...
177 38 19 2  -- CC: DATA ENTRY  (19 = comb4 filter)
177 38 20 2  -- CC: DATA ENTRY  (20 = phase warp filter)


==================================
2) using a BCF fader

Now on the BCF fader, the exact same data can be seen in MIDI-OX.  Moving the fader a bit at a time gives the same 4-chunk segment.

177 99  0 2  -- CC: NRPN MSB
177 98 43 2  -- CC: NRPN LSB
177  6  0 2  -- CC: DATA ENTRY
177 38  7 2  -- CC: DATA ENTRY

Moving the fader a bit repeats the 4-chink segment, only updating the last line with new values:

177 38  8 2  -- CC: DATA ENTRY
177 38  9 2  -- CC: DATA ENTRY

This is exactly what is wanted, and works successfully with the Micron responding correctly.


==================================
3) using a BCF button

The problem, however, is with the BCF button.  It only gives a 3-chunk segment of info:

177 99  0 2  -- CC: NRPN MSB
177 98 43 2  -- CC: NRPN LSB
177  6  0 2  -- CC: DATA ENTRY

177 99  0 2  -- CC: NRPN MSB
177 98 43 2  -- CC: NRPN LSB
177  6  1 2  -- CC: DATA ENTRY

177 99  0 2  -- CC: NRPN MSB
177 98 43 2  -- CC: NRPN LSB
177  6  1 2  -- CC: DATA ENTRY

It's missing the Status byte 38 that only shows up when using the Micron's own KnobX or when using the BCF's fader (also works with encoders).  If the BCF EDIT only allowed *ONE* additional button modes -- toggleON, toggleOFF, INC, and *Abs 14* -- it would work.  The faders or encoders will only work successfully with the Micron if Abs14 is selected as its Mode.

==================================

So my conclusion is I guess I have to use .tx commands, correct?  I'm now hooking up my BCF directly to my pc using a simple M-Audio MIDI interface, and it's now finally responding in your BCR editor (previously was trying thru a complicated MIDI chain).  The BCF display keeps flashing a spinning circle occasionally.  Anyhow, I've got a new project to keep me busy for a couple hours now, it looks like.

Thanks again, rpcfender.  Looks like very soon I'll be able to contribute to this BC and the Micron Yahoo groups with some new templates very soon.  One template each for the BCF and the BCR, with multiple presets just to access the Micron's 159 paramters, and one other template for using both a BCF and BCR together =)

Another question related to manually programming the BCF with regards to
the Micron.  I believe I've come across what others have called
"negative NRPN values", and was wondering how to workaround this.  I
hear one solution is to use 2 different BC encoders per Micron parameter
that behaves like that.

Here's the situation: certain Micron parameters, like for example FX
mix, have 100 possible values, but the BC only can access half of them,
so to speak.

On the Micron, turning the parameter knob scrolls you through all the
values available:

FX Mix
100 % dry, 0% wet ===> 0% dry, 100% wet.

On the BC, using an encoder set to NPRN 65, you can only access the
'positive' half:

FX Mix
50% dry, 50% wet ===> 0% dry, 100% wet.

Taking a look in MIDI-OX, what's listed when you turn the BC knob makes
immediate sense (high to low, leaving out Status and Channel for
clarity):

D1 D2 -- Event
99 0 -- NRPN MSB
98 65 -- NRPN LSB <== #65 is 'FX mix' parameter entered into BC encoder
6 0 -- Data Entry
38 50 -- Data Entry <== 0% dry, 100% wet
...
99 0
98 65
6 0
38 49 <== 1% dry, 99% wet
...
6 0
38 1 <== 49% dry, 51% wet
...
6 0
38 0 <== 50% dry, 50% wet

And that's as far as the BCF encoder goes.  You cannot access anything
past this 50/50 mark.

When you monitor the Micron knob turning for the same parameter, it's
the same for the 'positive' values, but lo and behold, once you go past
the 50/50, the Data Entry parameters for MIDI CC 6 now changes from a 0
to a 127.

99 0
98 65
6 0
38 1 <== 49% dry, 51% wet
...
6 0
38 0 <== 50% dry, 50% wet
...
99 0
98 65
6 127 <== sudden change!!
38 127 <== 51% dry, 49% wet
...
6 127
38 126 <== 52% dry, 48% wet
...
6 127
38 79 <== 99% dry, 1% wet
...
6 127
38 78 <== 100% dry, 0% wet

So, is it possible to figure out what numbers are needed by the BCF to
make it access the 'negative' NRPN here?  I notice that MIDI CC 98 still
shows 65 for the parameter (FX mix).  Perhaps then the key is to
calculate the new numbers needed for the 'negative' range by taking a
look at the Data1 and Data2 numbers.  I suspect it has something to do
with converting to hexadecimal... I see numbers like 16284 and 16383
thrown around on other posts.  Seems to me the difference between "6
127" and "6 0" may be one bit flipped?

(darn, on a hunch, I tried using NRPN 64 but with data going from 973 to
1023, thinking that 64 1024 = 65 0, but it didn't work out... am I on
the right path though?)

Hi there,

I'll try to answer some of your questions, but unfortunately i don't know how to put both ranges on the same controller.

CC's 6 and 38 represent the high and low bits of the NRPN value, respectively.

Each byte represents 7 bits of data, so if you have this:

> 6 127
> 38 126 <== 52% dry, 48% wet

then this is equal to: the high bits shifted 7 places to the left + the low bits,
or ( 127 << 7 ) | 126
which is 16382
On a calculator that doesn't do bit operations you can do
high bits * 2^7 + low bits, or 127*2^7+127

So your two ranges are
decimal			high bits		low bits
49-0			0			49-0
16383-16334	127			127-78

>  Seems to me the difference between "6
> 127" and "6 0" may be one bit flipped?

well that would make a lot of sense -
Usually you take the most significant (highest) bit for the sign, so that the values would be:

1 : 0<<13 | 1 = 1
-1 : 1<<13 | 1 = 8193
-49 : 1<<13 | 49 = 8241

This gives you a 14 bit range of 8191 positive and 8191 negative values.

Unfortunately that's not what Alesis have done!
Instead they seem to have opted for rolling the values around from 0 to max, giving you two distinct ranges.

As i said, I don't know how to put that on one controller. Maybe with some clever tx command it is possible.

Good luck!

/m

I know I'm getting ahead of myself, but I'm on a roll at the moment, heheh.

I've just been going over your BC Secrets again.  I can see once we figure out the numbers needed for the so-called 'negative NPRN' values, likely via .tx commands to send 14bit values via MIDI CC 6 MSB and LSB, then the major hurdle will be crossed.  

After that, using the .tx commands 'ifp' and 'ifn', it should be possible then to assign a single Encoder to respond with the 'positive' NRPN values for a parameter when turning clockwise, and to respond with the 'negative' NRPN values when turning counterclockwise.

Likewise, it should also be possible to assign a Button a .tx command which sends out the necessary 14bit NRPN command, and using 'incval' to increment, so that for the Micron parameters which have only a few values (so-called 'switches'), you can have a Button dedicated to the parameter instead of an Encoder.  Question is, could you also use the 'push' function of the top row Encoders as assignable Buttons in the same fashion, thereby giving you 32 more Buttons with 14bit, incrementable switches?  Hopefully so =)

I had forgotten all about the 'push' functionality of the top Encoders when designing and trying to squeeze in as many Micron parameters onto one BCF preset as possible.  If I'm understanding the principles so far, I'll likely be able to squeeze everything onto a single BC preset, correct?

Thanks, Martin, you've confirmed what I've suspected before.  It has to do with bit-shifting and such.  Luckily, I've discovered how to access these 'negative' parameters... they're not continuous, but disjunct!!  

In other words, for FX MIX, you do indeed need to use NRPN 65, for all values needed.  It's just that values 0-50 access one half (the 'positive' part, in this case 50/50 to 0/100 dry/wet).  To get to the other, 'negative' values (100/0 to 49/51), you don't logically use the next lowest bits below (and so encroaching into NRPN 64), but instead you use the top end of the last remaining 50 values for the NRPN 65.  In other words:

NRPN 65 0-50 ==> 50/50 to 0/100
NRPN 65 16333-16383 ==> 100/0 to 51/49

Knowing this, it just becomes a matter of assigning these values to an Encoder/Fader using the .tx commands...  I got this insight by noticing that my MIDI-OX uses decimal for the Output Window, but uses hexa for the Input Window.  This lets me see the same info in both formats.  It became apparent in the hexa format what was going on -- what I thought would be a continuous change was instead abrupt, because 06 00 gave way to 06 7F, which is bottom value to sudden top value.  Converting this back to decimal, 16383, then subtracting 50 for the 'other missing half', I successfully assigned an Encoder to transmit the values I couldn't get to before.

I believe now I have to customize an Encoder by inserting a line with .tx commands, somehow involving multiple MIDI commands and the 'ifp' and 'ifn' commands.

If only I could figure out how to customize the BC controls using these scripts and either BCR editor or BC manager...

Thank you very much for those numbers.  I'll give them a try on Friday,
now that I've got more of a handle on how the BC works.

Happy holidays

Woot, had a little time tonite, and I successfully used a custom .tx script to make the buttons use 14bit NRPN with both MIDI CC's 6 and 38 for the data entry part!!  I can now take all the parameters that are "switches" or "continous" but only have 3 or 4 possible values, and step through them with repeated button presses.  I'm so stoked.

Now for the negative NRPN issues...

Open BC-Manager>Click view>Click B-Controls>then click the view option on
the B-controls window>BCL Editor.

 

Why it is hidden that deep i dont know. but from there you can send commands
you type or commands from a text file etc.

 

From: bc2000@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bc2000@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
sghookings@...
Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2011 5:03 PM
To: bc2000@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [bc2000] Re: How to make BC buttons send 14bit NRPN values?

 

  

So how did you get on here?

 

The hint in these posts appears to be it is possible to send a 14 bit NPRN
with a button.

 

I have downloaded the BC Manager, and if I click on the  b33, I can indeed
setup normal NPRN (7bit) as one can from manually programming the BCR.

 

But no idea how / where to enter these .easypar or .tx command.

 

I took a quick look on this forum but couldnt find a "start here" tutorial.

 

 

Anyhow, in terms of the Miniak, I am now all too aware of the non-standard
things it does.

I have written my own editor for it, but want to use a BCR since I prefer
tactile controls.

 

The only "CC" buttons on the synth appear to be latch on/off. Most of the
other buttons do not send their midi, so no easy way to automate those.

 

So what I did instead was to map button b33 to the NRPN for F1 (43, 0 0 inc
1 so it just sends the 99/98 and a 0 06).

Map button b34 to F2 type (49 again with this 0 06).

Then I mapped b41 to CC 38, with a 20 -> 0 decr (I am still a noob at this,
but the incr/decr always seems to be wrong way around to me :-)).

And similarly b42 to CC38, with a 0 -> 20 inc.

 

So that one can press one of two buttons to choose between F1 type/F2 type.

And then one button to incr/one to decr.

This is non-ideal, but at least I can use some buttons to sort of control
some NPRNs with small ranges.

 

If you could point me to a noob doc on which software is easier to enter
these easypar/tx command I would be eternally grateful.

 

Since the synth ignores "out of range" values, I guess I could extend this
technique to the wave forms, unison voices etc leaving knobs available for
the 0 - 100 type ranges.

 

Bummer about the lack of -ve support.

 

Regards


Steve H

 

--- In bc2000@yahoogroups.com, "psionic11" <psionic11@...> wrote:
>
> Woot, had a little time tonite, and I successfully used a custom .tx
script to make the buttons use 14bit NRPN with both MIDI CC's 6 and 38 for
the data entry part!! I can now take all the parameters that are "switches"
or "continous" but only have 3 or 4 possible values, and step through them
with repeated button presses. I'm so stoked.

> 
> Now for the negative NRPN issues...
>

ah the motherlode "BC MIDI IMPLEMENTATION.PDF" page 5 seems to be where i should have started looking :-(

i can see i have some bedtime reading.

regards 

Steve H

--- In bc2000@yahoogroups.com, sghookings@... wrote:

>
> Thanks. I had found the editor, but when I tried to drop earlier post's
> (#2588) command in between the text, I ran into snags
> $rev F1 ; Firmware 1.10; BC Manager 2.3.1negative - group 2.minmax 
> $7F79   $7F7F      ; don't use 0  as the BC just thinks you want to go
> backwards.tx $B0 99 0.tx $B0 98 43.tx  $B0 6 val.tx  $B0 38 val7.13
> $end
> I got a load of syntax errors.
> If you know how to enter the commands in post (#2588) I sure would
> appreciate if you could drop in the full example for noobs like me.
> I am guessing I shouldnt have included the non "." stuff?
> Except isnt something else missing? Dont I have to tie this to a button
> (say 31)?
> $rev F1 ; Firmware 1.10; BC Manager 2.3.1$button31.showvalue on.minmax
> $7F79 $7F7F ; don't use 0, BC thinks you want to go backwards.tx $B0 99
> 0.tx $B0 98 43.tx $B0 6 val.tx $B0 38 val7.13              $end
> And indeed, where should one look for the definitive list of these bcr
> commands? I take it Behringer dont openly publish them?Is the primary
> source "SecretBC.pdf"?
> Coming back to the above examples (in this thread).
> $7f79 is equivalent to -7 right, and $7f7f is -1 (alesis/akai at least).
> In true A14 mode this would be [16377, 16383].
> So does the above take a value in [16377, 16383] and turn it into two 7
> bits.val7.13 is the MSB, so this will always be 7f, and the val is
> presumably automatically & 127 by BCR leading to a number in [121, 127].
> Is this what this command does?
> It seems the more I play with the BCR, the more I realise if only one
> could overflow from 16383 to 0, and underflow from 0 to 16383, then the
> Ion/Micron/Miniak would be able to play nicely with it.Similarly with
> the 7 bit NRPN ... but hopefully if you can get me straight with this
> stuff I can have a 14bit NRPN with the button inc and hence a slightly
> neater way to program than my "send 0 on 0x06 and send val to 0x26 from
> a different button.Although that did allow me to generate -ve waveshape
> (just not in a symmetric way).
> Regards
> Steve H
> I lament that Alesis/Akai decided to use LSB for the low range NRPNs,I
> mean as a programmer I would have been tempted to do the same, except
> most midi pages I read suggest Behringer are sending 7 bit NPRN
> correctly in the MSB (http://www.philrees.co.uk/nrpnq.htm)This is why I
> used trick, for button, of sending 0, and then altering LSB in a 2nd
> button (ie cc 38 directly) so simulate message completion.
> --- In bc2000@yahoogroups.com, "Greg Long" <greg.web.dev@> wrote:>
> > Open BC-Manager>Click view>Click B-Controls>then click the view option
> on
> > the B-controls window>BCL Editor.
> >
> >
> >
> > Why it is hidden that deep i dont know. but from there you can send
> commands
> > you type or commands from a text file etc.
> >
> >
> >
> > From: bc2000@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bc2000@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
> Of
> > sghookings@
> > Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2011 5:03 PM
> > To: bc2000@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: [bc2000] Re: How to make BC buttons send 14bit NRPN values?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > So how did you get on here?
> >
> >
> >
> > The hint in these posts appears to be it is possible to send a 14 bit
> NPRN
> > with a button.
> >
> >
> >
> > I have downloaded the BC Manager, and if I click on the  b33, I can
> indeed
> > setup normal NPRN (7bit) as one can from manually programming the BCR.
> >
> >
> >
> > But no idea how / where to enter these .easypar or .tx command.
> >
> >
> >
> > I took a quick look on this forum but couldnt find a "start here"
> tutorial.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Anyhow, in terms of the Miniak, I am now all too aware of the
> non-standard
> > things it does.
> >
> > I have written my own editor for it, but want to use a BCR since I
> prefer
> > tactile controls.
> >
> >
> >
> > The only "CC" buttons on the synth appear to be latch on/off. Most of
> the
> > other buttons do not send their midi, so no easy way to automate
> those.
> >
> >
> >
> > So what I did instead was to map button b33 to the NRPN for F1 (43, 0
> 0 inc
> > 1 so it just sends the 99/98 and a 0 06).
> >
> > Map button b34 to F2 type (49 again with this 0 06).
> >
> > Then I mapped b41 to CC 38, with a 20 -> 0 decr (I am still a noob at
> this,
> > but the incr/decr always seems to be wrong way around to me :-)).
> >
> > And similarly b42 to CC38, with a 0 -> 20 inc.
> >
> >
> >
> > So that one can press one of two buttons to choose between F1 type/F2
> type.
> >
> > And then one button to incr/one to decr.
> >
> > This is non-ideal, but at least I can use some buttons to sort of
> control
> > some NPRNs with small ranges.
> >
> >
> >
> > If you could point me to a noob doc on which software is easier to
> enter
> > these easypar/tx command I would be eternally grateful.
> >
> >
> >
> > Since the synth ignores "out of range" values, I guess I could extend
> this
> > technique to the wave forms, unison voices etc leaving knobs available
> for
> > the 0 - 100 type ranges.
> >
> >
> >
> > Bummer about the lack of -ve support.
> >
> >
> >
> > Regards
> >
> >
> > Steve H
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In bc2000@yahoogroups.com, "psionic11" psionic11@ wrote:
> > >
> > > Woot, had a little time tonite, and I successfully used a custom .tx
> > script to make the buttons use 14bit NRPN with both MIDI CC's 6 and 38
> for
> > the data entry part!! I can now take all the parameters that are
> "switches"
> > or "continous" but only have 3 or 4 possible values, and step through
> them
> > with repeated button presses. I'm so stoked.
> > >
> > > Now for the negative NRPN issues...
> > >
> >
>

--- In bc2000@yahoogroups.com, "Greg Long" <greg.web.dev@...> wrote:
> Open BC-Manager>Click view>Click B-Controls>then click the view option on
> the B-controls window>BCL Editor.
> 
> Why it is hidden that deep i dont know

First of all: BC Manager simply has an enormous amount of features, all "vying for prominence"...

More specific considerations concerning the BCL Editor:

1. A separate BCL Editor window is available for EACH individual B-Control you define in the B-Controls window.
So that's why there couldn't be a BCL Editor item in BC Manager's MAIN window.

2. BC Manager is primarily a GUI, with the intention of hiding BCL completely from end users, to relieve them from the burden of having to learn BCL (which is horribly complex and quirky).
There is little or nothing about BCL that BC Manager doesn't allow you to do "graphically".
So that's why there is no BCL Editor item on the B-Controls window's toolbar.

Mark.

--- In bc2000@yahoogroups.com, sghookings@... wrote:
> I have downloaded the BC Manager, and if I click on the  b33, I can
> indeed setup normal NPRN (7bit) as one can from manually programming the
> BCR.
> But no idea how / where to enter these .easypar or .tx command.

Basically, in BC Manager's button/encoder/fader dialog boxes the "Standard output" tab corresponds with ".easypar", the "Custom output" tab with ".tx".

> I took a quick look on this forum but couldnt find a "start here"
> tutorial.

Have you looked at the two swf "videos" in the files section of this group?
http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/bc2000/files/Applications/BC%20Manager/
(Although I can't remember if either of these videos addresses this area.)

Mark.

I use something called bcrtool [1], a command-line python script which converts text format presets to/from sysex format.
This can then be uploaded with e.g. Sysex Librarian [2].

Not the prettiest solution, but it works!

/m

[1] http://sourceforge.net/projects/bcrtool/
[2] http://www.snoize.com/SysExLibrarian/

On 12 May 2011, at 13:35, Alessandro Ratoci wrote:

> 
> 
> Dear friends... the BC manager is beautiful but does not work on crossover for mac (it does not find the bcf2000)
> is there any alternative for MAC?  I was NEVER ABLE to make the default Behrniger editor work...anybody here with mac?
> 
> Alessandro

--- In bc2000@yahoogroups.com, sghookings@... wrote:
> the green triangle (on BCL editor) is a "set noexec on" type command,

The green triangle ("Execute") indeed doesn't send the script to the BCF/BCR, but it does "send" the script to the BCF/BCR's "context" within BC Manager. So in that respect "Execute" does have an effect - it's not only a "syntax check". Come to think of it, it might be a good idea to implement such a syntax check; can't be too difficult...

> when I pressed the green left
> hand midi symbol, and then pressed the appropriate button on BCR (having
> first selected Record from your MIDI input) meant I could see why I had
> written a buggy scripts.

"Never change a winning team" - but couldn't you just have pressed the green "Execute" triangle, at least to see any syntax errors? Then you get a list of any syntax errors in the "BCL errors" window (it should pop up automatically when an error is found).

But of course for debugging the "meaning" of a script (i.e. the BCF/R's MIDI output), your method (with the "MIDI input messages" window) is absolutely right - at least it's exactly how I always test scripts!

> Sorry for the noob questions; I guess we all gotta start somewhere :-).

I think you've been doing quite well... In tackling button increment mode, you've jumped in at the very deepest end of BCL! It's just horrendously complicated.

> I dont doubt there are
> more optimal ways to achieve this, but I am still reading the manual.
> $rev R1 ; Firmware 1.10; BC Manager 2.3.1
> $button 39
> .easypar NRPN 1 43 20 1 increment 1
> .mode incval 1
> .minmax 0 20
> .showvalue on
> .tx $B0 99 0
> .tx $B0 98 43
> .tx $B0 6 0
> .tx $B0 38 val
> $end

> $rev R1 ; Firmware 1.10; BC Manager 2.3.1
> $button 47
> .easypar NRPN 1 43 1 20 increment 1
> .mode incval -1
> .minmax 0 20
> .showvalue on
> .tx $B0 99 0
> .tx $B0 98 43
> .tx $B0 6 0
> .tx $B0 38 val
> $end

> I suspect I probably should have done an easypar of 20 1 increment -1
> and then I can ignore the .incvalOr even 20 0 increment -1. Lots of
> playing for me here :-).
> NOTE: the essence of this button mapping it to associate the 7 bit MSB
> NPRN value, with the 7bit LSB NRPN value.

First of all: in your definition for button 47, the easypar statement's Value 1 (1) is lower than Value 2 (20).

In itself, this will never work, because:

"Value1 must always be higher than Value2, otherwise Value will immediately stick at Value1 if Increment is negative, and at Value2 if Increment is positive." (BCMI, section 15.10.)

Actually, this easypar statement is "saved" by the subsequent "mode incval" statement, because it overrides easypar's invalid value range with a correct range. (In a "mode incval" statement, Value1 has to be LOWER than Value2.)

But in general I think it is pointless to have both "easypar NRPN increment" and "mode incval"/"minmax", since they affect the same internal parameters.

Each of your definitions triggers 7 CC messages each time you press the button.
In principle the first 3 messages (triggered by easypar) are superfluous in each case, since they are overridden by the last 4 (triggered by tx statements).
So if the easypar statements weren't necessary to keep the values of the two buttons synchronized, you could have left out the easypar statements altogether:

$rev R1 ; Firmware 1.10; BC Manager 2.3.1
$button 39
  .showvalue on
  .default 0
  .mode incval 1
  .minmax 0 20
  .tx $B0 $63 $00
  .tx $B0 $62 $2B
  .tx $B0 $06 $00
  .tx $B0 $26 val
$button 47
  .showvalue on
  .default 0
  .mode incval -1
  .minmax 0 20
  .tx $B0 $63 $00
  .tx $B0 $62 $2B
  .tx $B0 $06 $00
  .tx $B0 $26 val
$end

(The default value of 0 used for both buttons here means that if you press button 39 first, "val" is output as 1, whereas if you press 47 first, "val" is output as 20. You can of course tweak this to your liking.)

However, since you want to keep the two button values synchronized, you do need easypar statements.
But this means that you don't need any "mode incval" and "minmax" statements, provided you use the appropriate values in the "easypar" statement:

$rev R1 ; Firmware 1.10; BC Manager 2.3.1
$button 39
  .easypar NRPN 1 43 20 0 increment 1
  .showvalue on
  .default 0
  .tx $B0 $63 $00
  .tx $B0 $62 $2B
  .tx $B0 $06 $00
  .tx $B0 $26 val
$button 47
  .easypar NRPN 1 43 20 0 increment -1
  .showvalue on
  .default 0
  .tx $B0 $63 $00
  .tx $B0 $62 $2B
  .tx $B0 $06 $00
  .tx $B0 $26 val
$end

In fact, if I remember the NRPN protocol correctly, you can leave out the first two ".tx" statements: the NRPN number selected by the $63 and $62 messages generated by the easypar statement should still be valid (although you'd have to check if your receiving device actually supports this):

$rev R1 ; Firmware 1.10; BC Manager 2.3.1
$button 39
  .easypar NRPN 1 43 20 0 increment 1
  .showvalue on
  .default 0
  .tx $B0 $06 $00
  .tx $B0 $26 val
$button 47
  .easypar NRPN 1 43 20 0 increment -1
  .showvalue on
  .default 0
  .tx $B0 $06 $00
  .tx $B0 $26 val
$end

One thing that still bothers me is that the easypar statement causes the BCR to first send the button value as the MSB, so in theory the parameter on the receiving device jumps to an undesired value for a short time. (Actually this is another argument in favor of leaving out the first two tx statements, provided they are indeed superfluous.)

One way out of this problem might be to assign a completely unrelated NRPN number to the easypar statement - you'd only have to make sure that this number isn't picked up by the receiving device in any way. So you could put this message on a different (silent) MIDI channel. In fact, to bring down the number of superfluous messages you might be able to use a CC (or AT?!) definition instead of NRPN; I haven't checked whether this actually works, though.

> PS liked your PhD thesis. Now that I will have to re-read a few times
> because you put the math and music together and I get excited :-)

Thanks for the compliment!
At the time (1996) not everybody in the music-scientific world liked it, although for varying, contradictory reasons:
- "we already know all this [i.e. the tonal theory as presented in my dissertation], so it's pointless to formalize it"
- "the author [i.e. me] doesn't know what he's talking about"
- "this isn't scientific: it's all speculation"
Clearly, formalization of music (cognition) didn't/doesn't go down well with many people...

By the way, as stated on the Plans page of my web site, I'm currently working hard on a publishable new implementation of the computer program used in my dissertation. This will also allow me to correct some of the mis-aligned graphics in the dissertation's pdf version.

Anyway, back to BCF/BCR2000 matters...

Mark.

--- In bc2000@yahoogroups.com, Martin Klang <mars@...> wrote:
>
> 
> I use something called bcrtool [1], a command-line python script which converts text format presets to/from sysex format.
> This can then be uploaded with e.g. Sysex Librarian [2].
> 
> Not the prettiest solution, but it works!
> 
> /m
> 
> [1] http://sourceforge.net/projects/bcrtool/
> [2] http://www.snoize.com/SysExLibrarian/
> 
> On 12 May 2011, at 13:35, Alessandro Ratoci wrote:
> 
> > 
> > 
> > Dear friends... the BC manager is beautiful but does not work on crossover for mac (it does not find the bcf2000)
> > is there any alternative for MAC?  I was NEVER ABLE to make the default Behrniger editor work...anybody here with mac?
> > 
> > Alessandro
>

*******SOLUTION*********

 Behringer BCR2000 BCF2000. If you want to use the bc-edit editor WHICH DOES NOT WORK by it self due to the macs java communication problems. You need to install http://www.mandolane.co.uk/

Now the editor will work.... damn it took a while for me find that out!!!???###@%#$^$

****SOLUTION******

Behringer BCR2000 BCF2000. If you want to use the bc-edit editor WHICH DOES NOT WORK by it self due to the macs java communication problems. You need to install http://www.mandolane.co.uk/

Now the editor will work.... damn it took a while for me find that out!!!???###@%#$^$

--- In bc2000@yahoogroups.com, Martin Klang <mars@...> wrote:

>
> 
> I use something called bcrtool [1], a command-line python script which converts text format presets to/from sysex format.
> This can then be uploaded with e.g. Sysex Librarian [2].
> 
> Not the prettiest solution, but it works!
> 
> /m
> 
> [1] http://sourceforge.net/projects/bcrtool/
> [2] http://www.snoize.com/SysExLibrarian/
> 
> On 12 May 2011, at 13:35, Alessandro Ratoci wrote:
> 
> > 
> > 
> > Dear friends... the BC manager is beautiful but does not work on crossover for mac (it does not find the bcf2000)
> > is there any alternative for MAC?  I was NEVER ABLE to make the default Behrniger editor work...anybody here with mac?
> > 
> > Alessandro
>