Bc2000 (for the BCF2000 & BCR2000)

I can't find the answer in the forum (though I am sure the question has been asked before).

I want two BCR's to work for me in the studio. One for tracks 1-8 and one for tracks 9-16. With presets I can move forward and backward but in any case Ihave 16 channels right under my control.

The problem is that I get only one BCR recognized. BC Manager 'sees' only one device. The manual (behringer) tells me I can daisychain the BCR's but I first want to work out 2x USB connection.

Any tips?

--- In bc2000@yahoogroups.com, "diddywahdiddy1" <550@...> wrote:
> I want two BCR's to work for me in the studio. One for tracks 1-8 and one for tracks 9-16. With presets I can move forward and backward but in any case Ihave 16 channels right under my control.
> 
> The problem is that I get only one BCR recognized. BC Manager 'sees' only one device. The manual (behringer) tells me I can daisychain the BCR's but I first want to work out 2x USB connection.
> 
> Any tips?

On each BCR, enter Global Setup ("EG") mode via EDIT + STORE:

Set Operation Mode to a U-mode via push encoder 1. For simplicity at this point I recommend U-1 (because U-1 doesn't lead to any additional USB devices for the BCR's MIDI I/O sockets).

For now, set the ID number (editable via push encoder 5) to different values, so e.g. to 1 on one BCR and to 2 on the other.
(Ultimately you may have to set both to 1: for instance Propellerhead Reason only works properly with any BCR if it has ID 1.)

Exit Global Setup mode by pressing EXIT. The green "USB MODE" LED on each BCR should get (or remain) lit. (If not, there's a hardware USB connection error.)

Then start BC Manager:

From the main window, go to Options -> MIDI devices.
There should be two input devices called something like "BCR2000[1]" and "BCR2000[2]", and also two output devices with these names.
(The actual names depend on the USB driver installed for your BCRs. The numbers between brackets should correspond directly with the ID numbers you have chosen.)

If any BCR's input and output devices do not appear in these lists, there is something wrong with this BCR's USB setup: a faulty USB controller on the BCR itself (unlikely but not impossible - I've had this myself), a cable problem, or a USB driver problem.

If all these I/O devices DO appear in the lists, you should put checkmarks in front of each of them, then press OK.

Then go to the B-Controls window and execute MIDI -> "Detect B-Controls."
Both BCRs should now get detected and get their own line in the list - and then you should be in business.

Alternatively you can start BC Manager and simply execute File -> "Restart with default setup" from the main window. The advantage of this is that you don't have to manually enable any MIDI devices, the disadvantage is that you lose any previous program settings (update check interval etc.), although this usually isn't such a problem.

I only have one BCR myself, so I've never been able to test whether BC Manager allows two BCRs side by side via USB, but I've never heard any complaints about this and I do have a BCF that works together with my BCR in this way. But who knows...

Hope this helps,
   Mark.

Okay, so  a lot happened last few days but I'm still not where I want to be. I have:
- done all the hardware testing (cables, etc). 
- Installed Behringer drivers and UNinstalled them.
- Tested on two different pc's

Both BCR's are U1 and each has its own ID.

BCmanager detects two devices and lists them. However 1 of the 2 is offline. And there is NO way of getting it online. I wouldn't know how to try...... When I try to send the firmware syx ( bcr2000_1-10.syx ) I get an error message
-------------------
Error: MIDI system exclusive error
Wrong command
Send Memory(34)
This may be the result of a feedback loop
Message1
--------------------

PUZZLED

--- In bc2000@yahoogroups.com, "Mark v.d. Berg" <markwinvdb@...> wrote:

>
> --- In bc2000@yahoogroups.com, "diddywahdiddy1" <550@> wrote:
> > I want two BCR's to work for me in the studio. One for tracks 1-8 and one for tracks 9-16. With presets I can move forward and backward but in any case Ihave 16 channels right under my control.
> > 
> > The problem is that I get only one BCR recognized. BC Manager 'sees' only one device. The manual (behringer) tells me I can daisychain the BCR's but I first want to work out 2x USB connection.
> > 
> > Any tips?
> 
> On each BCR, enter Global Setup ("EG") mode via EDIT + STORE:
> 
> Set Operation Mode to a U-mode via push encoder 1. For simplicity at this point I recommend U-1 (because U-1 doesn't lead to any additional USB devices for the BCR's MIDI I/O sockets).
> 
> For now, set the ID number (editable via push encoder 5) to different values, so e.g. to 1 on one BCR and to 2 on the other.
> (Ultimately you may have to set both to 1: for instance Propellerhead Reason only works properly with any BCR if it has ID 1.)
> 
> Exit Global Setup mode by pressing EXIT. The green "USB MODE" LED on each BCR should get (or remain) lit. (If not, there's a hardware USB connection error.)
> 
> Then start BC Manager:
> 
> From the main window, go to Options -> MIDI devices.
> There should be two input devices called something like "BCR2000[1]" and "BCR2000[2]", and also two output devices with these names.
> (The actual names depend on the USB driver installed for your BCRs. The numbers between brackets should correspond directly with the ID numbers you have chosen.)
> 
> If any BCR's input and output devices do not appear in these lists, there is something wrong with this BCR's USB setup: a faulty USB controller on the BCR itself (unlikely but not impossible - I've had this myself), a cable problem, or a USB driver problem.
> 
> If all these I/O devices DO appear in the lists, you should put checkmarks in front of each of them, then press OK.
> 
> Then go to the B-Controls window and execute MIDI -> "Detect B-Controls."
> Both BCRs should now get detected and get their own line in the list - and then you should be in business.
> 
> Alternatively you can start BC Manager and simply execute File -> "Restart with default setup" from the main window. The advantage of this is that you don't have to manually enable any MIDI devices, the disadvantage is that you lose any previous program settings (update check interval etc.), although this usually isn't such a problem.
> 
> I only have one BCR myself, so I've never been able to test whether BC Manager allows two BCRs side by side via USB, but I've never heard any complaints about this and I do have a BCF that works together with my BCR in this way. But who knows...
> 
> Hope this helps,
>    Mark.
>

--- In bc2000@yahoogroups.com, "diddywahdiddy1" <550@...> wrote:
> Okay, so  a lot happened last few days but I'm still not where I want to be. I have:
> - done all the hardware testing (cables, etc). 
> - Installed Behringer drivers and UNinstalled them.
> - Tested on two different pc's
> 
> Both BCR's are U1 and each has its own ID.
> 
> BCmanager detects two devices and lists them. However 1 of the 2 is offline. And there is NO way of getting it online. I wouldn't know how to try......

I think what we need to do is try to isolate the problem. I don't have a clear-cut answer right now, but I'll make some suggestions and hopefully we'll get there in the end:

First question: is it always the same physical BCR that remains offline?

To test this, have you tried swapping the two BCRs?
Just to be safe: first switch off both BCRs and the computer. (Personally I don't take any risks: I never connect/disconnect the USB cable at either end whenever either the computer or the BCR has been powered on. ONE defective USB controller on a BCR was enough to scare me for life in this respect!)
Then disconnect the USB cables from the BCRs, power the BCRs on (yes, completely isolated!) and swap their IDs via "Global Setup".
Power them off again, connect the SWAPPED USB cables, power the computer on, and finally power the BCRs on.
To the computer (including USB drivers and BC Manager) it should then be as if nothing has changed:
Start BC Manager and see which BCR is offline. If it's the one that was offline previously, there must be a hardware problem with that BCR (probably its USB controller).
On the other hand, if the problem has now moved to the other BCR, your BCRs are fine and there is a software problem at the computer side (although that would be a bit strange, since you've tried several computers).

Which operating system are you using exactly, and which USB drivers?

> When I try to send the firmware syx ( bcr2000_1-10.syx ) I get an error message
> -------------------
> Error: MIDI system exclusive error
> Wrong command
> Send Memory(34)
> This may be the result of a feedback loop
> Message1
> --------------------

As long as a BCR shows "1.10" after powering it up, its firmware is completely OK (because on startup the BCR performs a checksum test of its firmware), and there is absolutely no point in trying to restore the firmware.

What caused the above error message is a different matter:
You used BC Manager's "Send firmware" operation (rather than an external SysEx uploader such as MIDI-OX)?
If so, the "Send Memory" message that BC Manager received (and complained about) can only be a message that it had just sent itself, so there must indeed be some feedback loop; this seems very strange, assuming that your attempt at uploading the firmware went to the USB device of the BCR.

One common cause of loops is virtual MIDI ports. Do you have any virtual MIDI ports (e.g. MIDI Yoke) installed?
If so, you should disable all of them in BC Manager's "MIDI devices" dialog box (at least for now).

Hope this helps,
Mark.

Your suggestion of isolating the problem was exactly what I started out with this morning. I turned down the computer and started up with 1 BCR (the new one) to see if it functioned with the sysex that I had been using for a year now with my DAW. That way I would know whether the new BCR wasn't working properly.
Here's what I found:

shut down computer
connect and switch on NEW  BCR
reboot

1. NEW BCR, cable 1

BCm detects 1 device = online
I send sysex uploads OK
test in DAW (REAPER) = ok (both send and receive signals)
test in Audiomulch = ok 

shut down computer
shut down and disconnect NEW BCR
connect and switch on OLD BCR
reboot

2 OLD BCR, cable 2 
reboot with BCR switched on and connected
BCM detects 2 devices (!)
device 1 is online and using correct firmware
device 2 is offline
I send sysex, uploads OK
test in DAW = OK (both send and receive signals)
test in Audiomulch = OK

shut down computer
connect and switch on NEW BCR (Now both BCR's are connected)
reboot

3 both BCR's
BCM detects 1 device
midi devices shows
input: usb device, usb device (2), usb device [2]
output: usb device, usb device (2), usb device [2], usb device [3]
I check usb device and device (2)

BCM detects 2 devices
device 1 is online
device 2 is offline

Yet when I check the midi input both devices show that there is signal

test in DAW = OK (both send and receive signals)
test in Audiomulch = OK

So, now both BCR's are working properly!!! Is it the BC manager that confused me all the time? Yes, but have been other issues as well. It was a very puzzling adventure but, somehow, I now am there where I want to be. I will try and see how stable this is in the next few days and if anything comes up post about it here.

At the Reaper forum there are a few examples of people using multiple BCR's and BCF's in a studio.
http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=46524

There's also a thread about different setups for getting Reaper to send feedback to the BCR and how to connect it.
http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=33149

--- In bc2000@yahoogroups.com, "Mark v.d. Berg" <markwinvdb@...> wrote:

>
> --- In bc2000@yahoogroups.com, "diddywahdiddy1" <550@> wrote:
> > Okay, so  a lot happened last few days but I'm still not where I want to be. I have:
> > - done all the hardware testing (cables, etc). 
> > - Installed Behringer drivers and UNinstalled them.
> > - Tested on two different pc's
> > 
> > Both BCR's are U1 and each has its own ID.
> > 
> > BCmanager detects two devices and lists them. However 1 of the 2 is offline. And there is NO way of getting it online. I wouldn't know how to try......
> 
> I think what we need to do is try to isolate the problem. I don't have a clear-cut answer right now, but I'll make some suggestions and hopefully we'll get there in the end:
> 
> First question: is it always the same physical BCR that remains offline?
> 
> To test this, have you tried swapping the two BCRs?
> Just to be safe: first switch off both BCRs and the computer. (Personally I don't take any risks: I never connect/disconnect the USB cable at either end whenever either the computer or the BCR has been powered on. ONE defective USB controller on a BCR was enough to scare me for life in this respect!)
> Then disconnect the USB cables from the BCRs, power the BCRs on (yes, completely isolated!) and swap their IDs via "Global Setup".
> Power them off again, connect the SWAPPED USB cables, power the computer on, and finally power the BCRs on.
> To the computer (including USB drivers and BC Manager) it should then be as if nothing has changed:
> Start BC Manager and see which BCR is offline. If it's the one that was offline previously, there must be a hardware problem with that BCR (probably its USB controller).
> On the other hand, if the problem has now moved to the other BCR, your BCRs are fine and there is a software problem at the computer side (although that would be a bit strange, since you've tried several computers).
> 
> Which operating system are you using exactly, and which USB drivers?
> 
> > When I try to send the firmware syx ( bcr2000_1-10.syx ) I get an error message
> > -------------------
> > Error: MIDI system exclusive error
> > Wrong command
> > Send Memory(34)
> > This may be the result of a feedback loop
> > Message1
> > --------------------
> 
> As long as a BCR shows "1.10" after powering it up, its firmware is completely OK (because on startup the BCR performs a checksum test of its firmware), and there is absolutely no point in trying to restore the firmware.
> 
> What caused the above error message is a different matter:
> You used BC Manager's "Send firmware" operation (rather than an external SysEx uploader such as MIDI-OX)?
> If so, the "Send Memory" message that BC Manager received (and complained about) can only be a message that it had just sent itself, so there must indeed be some feedback loop; this seems very strange, assuming that your attempt at uploading the firmware went to the USB device of the BCR.
> 
> One common cause of loops is virtual MIDI ports. Do you have any virtual MIDI ports (e.g. MIDI Yoke) installed?
> If so, you should disable all of them in BC Manager's "MIDI devices" dialog box (at least for now).
> 
> Hope this helps,
> Mark.
>

--- In bc2000@yahoogroups.com, "diddywahdiddy1" <550@...> wrote:
> reboot with BCR switched on and connected
> BCM detects 2 devices (!)
> device 1 is online and using correct firmware
> device 2 is offline

Actually BC Manager hasn't really "detected" 2 BCRs:
It has only tried to restore the BCR "contexts" (cf. the lines in the B-Controls window) that existed when BC Manager closed the last time.

"Offline" can result from 2 conditions:

1. The previously defined MIDI I/O ports are currently unavailable: their names are between parentheses "(...)" in the B-Controls window. 

2. The MIDI I/O ports ARE available (hence: not between parentheses), but the previously defined BCR behind these ports could not be found.
There can be various reasons for this, but in your case it may well be because of a mismatch between the Device ID number on the actual BCR and the Device ID defined in BC Manager.

So the term "device" (as you were using it) isn't exact enough: we need to distinguish between the BCR and its (USB-based) MIDI I/O ports.
In the situation you describe, BC Manager has detected 2 pairs of MIDI input port + MIDI output port, but not the BCR behind one pair of MIDI I/O ports.

> 3 both BCR's
> BCM detects 1 device
> midi devices shows
> input: usb device, usb device (2), usb device [2]
> output: usb device, usb device (2), usb device [2], usb device [3]
> I check usb device and device (2)

Ouch! Are "usb device" etc. the actual names?

Then an important question is: which USB driver are you using?
And which operating system?

I'm not familiar with all the existing USB drivers, but I suspect you're using a standard Microsoft USB driver.

One problem with standard Microsoft USB drivers is that they assign numbers DYNAMICALLY to any BCRs you switch on:
When you switch on one BCR (while Windows is already running), this BCR's USB I/O devices get named "usb device".
If you then switch on a second BCR, this second BCR's I/O devices get called "usb device (2)". But I think that if you then switch both BCRs off, and then switch on the SECOND BCR, THAT one now gets named "usb device".

Another complication with Microsoft drivers is the names they give to the additional USB devices of the BCR's operating modes U-2, U-3 and U-4: these devices get additional numbers between square brackets.

So if I'm not mistaken, your above lists of I/O devices are to be interpreted as follows:

The 1st BCR ("BCR1") was in U-3, the 2nd ("BCR2") in U-1.

Inputs:
usb device     = BCR1 itself
usb device (2) = BCR2 itself
usb device [2] = BCR1 MIDI IN socket

Outputs:
usb device     = BCR1 itself
usb device (2) = BCR2 itself
usb device [2] = BCR1 MIDI OUT A socket
usb device [3] = BCR1 MIDI OUT B/THRU socket

This is all extremely confusing.
(I suppose that if you put BCR2 in U-3, you get names like "usb device (2) [2]" or something?)

All in all it is recommendable to install one of the Behringer USB drivers, which produce more informative I/O port names.
(To varying degrees; some Behringer drivers even use the BCR's Device ID in the port names.)
What your actual options are, depends on your Windows version.
See the BC Manager Manual, section 4 point 4, for a list of choices and further discussion.

With all this in mind, let's go back to BC Manager:

In BC Manager, each BCR "context" is a fixed combination of a MIDI input port, a MIDI output port and a Device ID. (And a preset file, optionally.)

So when BC Manager tries to restore a previously defined BCR "context", it uses the previously defined Device ID number for that context.

So if the BCR that is ACTUALLY behind the selected MIDI I/O ports has a DIFFERENT Device ID, BC Manager (correctly) thinks it's not the BCR it was looking for and reports the missing BCR as "Offline".

To make BC Manager find a particular BCR, you should make sure that the BCR's Device ID matches the number that BC Manager maintains.
You can set the Device ID for each BCR context from the B-Controls window via MIDI -> Options.

You might also experiment with the "Startup detection" setting, which you can change from the main window via Options -> B-Control detection:

This setting's default is "Verify identity of previously defined B-Controls", which is responsible for the startup behavior you're familiar with.

"None" might be interesting for testing purposes: you then have to "connect" each BCR manually by executing "Refresh connection status" from the B-Controls window.

However, "Scan enabled MIDI ports" might be interesting on a more permanent basis:
It leads to a more relaxed policy, which might be more convenient in your case:
BC Manager then finds ANY BCR (irrespective of Device ID) at ANY enabled MIDI port, and (if necessary) ADDS this BCR to the list.
However, any "obsolete" contexts will remain in the list, so you may have to use the "Close selected" operation from the File menu to remove these obsolete contexts.

Alternatively you can of course set BOTH BCRs to ID 1, but then BC Manager has no way of distinguishing between them, apart from the names of their MIDI I/O ports (which are fluid in your current situation). Of course this can lead to maintenance problems if you wish to install different presets on your BCRs.

Hope this helps,
Mark.

--- In bc2000@yahoogroups.com, "Mark v.d. Berg" <markwinvdb@...> wrote:
>
> --- In bc2000@yahoogroups.com, "diddywahdiddy1" <550@> wrote:
> > reboot with BCR switched on and connected
> > BCM detects 2 devices (!)
> > device 1 is online and using correct firmware
> > device 2 is offline
> 
> Actually BC Manager hasn't really "detected" 2 BCRs:
> It has only tried to restore the BCR "contexts" (cf. the lines in the B-Controls window) that existed when BC Manager closed the last time.

Maybe change the message? It was rather confusing to me. I thought it was actually polling for devices and getting a response.

> 
> "Offline" can result from 2 conditions:
> 
> 1. The previously defined MIDI I/O ports are currently unavailable: their names are between parentheses "(...)" in the B-Controls window. 
> 
> 2. The MIDI I/O ports ARE available (hence: not between parentheses), but the previously defined BCR behind these ports could not be found.
> There can be various reasons for this, but in your case it may well be because of a mismatch between the Device ID number on the actual BCR and the Device ID defined in BC Manager.
> 
> So the term "device" (as you were using it) isn't exact enough: we need to distinguish between the BCR and its (USB-based) MIDI I/O ports.

Strangely, the USB devices are both called USB device (USB apparaat) in the B-controls list. But in the midi devices list they are called as below.


> In the situation you describe, BC Manager has detected 2 pairs of MIDI input port + MIDI output port, but not the BCR behind one pair of MIDI I/O ports.
> 
> > 3 both BCR's
> > BCM detects 1 device
> > midi devices shows
> > input: usb device, usb device (2), usb device [2]
> > output: usb device, usb device (2), usb device [2], usb device [3]
> > I check usb device and device (2)
> 
> Ouch! Are "usb device" etc. the actual names?

Like I said :  usb apparaat

> 
> Then an important question is: which USB driver are you using?
> And which operating system?

I have a standard XP sp3 OS

> 
> I'm not familiar with all the existing USB drivers, but I suspect you're using a standard Microsoft USB driver.

Yup, I installed Behringer drivers but was advised to deïnstall somewhere on the net.

> 
> One problem with standard Microsoft USB drivers is that they assign numbers DYNAMICALLY to any BCRs you switch on:
> When you switch on one BCR (while Windows is already running), this BCR's USB I/O devices get named "usb device".
> If you then switch on a second BCR, this second BCR's I/O devices get called "usb device (2)". But I think that if you then switch both BCRs off, and then switch on the SECOND BCR, THAT one now gets named "usb device".

Correct

> 
> Another complication with Microsoft drivers is the names they give to the additional USB devices of the BCR's operating modes U-2, U-3 and U-4: these devices get additional numbers between square brackets.

Yesterday I found that, somehow, BC manager or whatever other software changed the U-1 into U-3.... Haven't checked that this morning.
> 
> So if I'm not mistaken, your above lists of I/O devices are to be interpreted as follows:
> 
> The 1st BCR ("BCR1") was in U-3, the 2nd ("BCR2") in U-1.
> 
> Inputs:
> usb device     = BCR1 itself
> usb device (2) = BCR2 itself
> usb device [2] = BCR1 MIDI IN socket
> 
> Outputs:
> usb device     = BCR1 itself
> usb device (2) = BCR2 itself
> usb device [2] = BCR1 MIDI OUT A socket
> usb device [3] = BCR1 MIDI OUT B/THRU socket
> 
> This is all extremely confusing.
> (I suppose that if you put BCR2 in U-3, you get names like "usb device (2) [2]" or something?)

I have seen that happening :)
> 
> All in all it is recommendable to install one of the Behringer USB drivers, which produce more informative I/O port names.
> (To varying degrees; some Behringer drivers even use the BCR's Device ID in the port names.)
> What your actual options are, depends on your Windows version.
> See the BC Manager Manual, section 4 point 4, for a list of choices and further discussion.
> 
> With all this in mind, let's go back to BC Manager:
> 
> In BC Manager, each BCR "context" is a fixed combination of a MIDI input port, a MIDI output port and a Device ID. (And a preset file, optionally.)
> 
> So when BC Manager tries to restore a previously defined BCR "context", it uses the previously defined Device ID number for that context.
> 
> So if the BCR that is ACTUALLY behind the selected MIDI I/O ports has a DIFFERENT Device ID, BC Manager (correctly) thinks it's not the BCR it was looking for and reports the missing BCR as "Offline".
> 
> To make BC Manager find a particular BCR, you should make sure that the BCR's Device ID matches the number that BC Manager maintains.
> You can set the Device ID for each BCR context from the B-Controls window via MIDI -> Options.
> 
> You might also experiment with the "Startup detection" setting, which you can change from the main window via Options -> B-Control detection:
> 
> This setting's default is "Verify identity of previously defined B-Controls", which is responsible for the startup behavior you're familiar with.
> 
> "None" might be interesting for testing purposes: you then have to "connect" each BCR manually by executing "Refresh connection status" from the B-Controls window.
> 
> However, "Scan enabled MIDI ports" might be interesting on a more permanent basis:
> It leads to a more relaxed policy, which might be more convenient in your case:
> BC Manager then finds ANY BCR (irrespective of Device ID) at ANY enabled MIDI port, and (if necessary) ADDS this BCR to the list.
> However, any "obsolete" contexts will remain in the list, so you may have to use the "Close selected" operation from the File menu to remove these obsolete contexts.
> 
> Alternatively you can of course set BOTH BCRs to ID 1, but then BC Manager has no way of distinguishing between them, apart from the names of their MIDI I/O ports (which are fluid in your current situation). Of course this can lead to maintenance problems if you wish to install different presets on your BCRs.
> 
> Hope this helps,
> Mark.
>

Mark, thanks for this extensive reply. I am currently extremely pleased with the fact that my setup is working.  So I am a bit wary of  disconnecting, rearranging etc. I will check later on what BC manager makes of this situation.

--- In bc2000@yahoogroups.com, "diddywahdiddy1" <550@...> wrote:
> Maybe change the message? It was rather confusing to me. I thought it 
> was actually polling for devices and getting a response.

By "message" you mean "Offline" in the Personality column?

> Strangely, the USB devices are both called USB device (USB apparaat) in 
> the B-controls list. But in the midi devices list they are called as below.

This suggests that the two BCR "contexts" in the B-Controls list are BOTH using the SAME MIDI I/O devices, namely the ones called "usb apparaat".
You can edit the MIDI I/O devices of each BCR context in the MIDI -> Options dialog box.

> Yup, I installed Behringer drivers but was advised to deïnstall 
> somewhere on the net.

Well, I can only say I disagree completely...

For one thing, the Microsoft drivers are "single-client": you can only connect one application at any moment in time to a particular port.
The Behringer drivers allow you to connect as many programs simultaneously as you wish.

> I have a standard XP sp3 OS

I have XP+SP3 myself, and I can warmly recommend Behringer's 1.2.1.3 driver.
This is the only driver that creates fully correct, transparent, persistent I/O device names, including the Device IDs, and (in U-2, U-3 and U-4) the correct port letters of the MIDI IN and OUT sockets.
For instance, a BCR with Device ID 1 gets called "BCR2000[1]".
So in your case you could then set the second BCR's Device ID to 2; this BCR will then ALWAYS be called "BCR2000[2]", even if you haven't switched the other BCR on.
Basically you'll always know which is which.

>  > (I suppose that if you put BCR2 in U-3, you get names like "usb 
> device (2) [2]" or something?)
> 
> I have seen that happening :)

Yes, me too, actually. I have one BCR and one BCF, but the Microsoft driver doesn't distinguish between those two either, so it gave me the same "device (2) [2]" headaches...

Best wishes,
Mark.

New episode

At your suggestion I did a renewed install of the Behringer drivers. Immediately things deteriorated. Yes, usb-apparaat is now BCR-2000 but  BC manager does not recognize the BCRs anymore (B-controls is empty). input and output meters In my apps they are working in the sense that one controller has input and output, the other one only output (meaning: it receives no feedback from the DAW).

I do get a message from windows that there is an i/o error but it's unclear from which device. I will have start all over again.....



--- In bc2000@yahoogroups.com, "Mark v.d. Berg" <markwinvdb@...> wrote:

>
> --- In bc2000@yahoogroups.com, "diddywahdiddy1" <550@> wrote:
> > Maybe change the message? It was rather confusing to me. I thought it 
> > was actually polling for devices and getting a response.
> 
> By "message" you mean "Offline" in the Personality column?
> 
> > Strangely, the USB devices are both called USB device (USB apparaat) in 
> > the B-controls list. But in the midi devices list they are called as below.
> 
> This suggests that the two BCR "contexts" in the B-Controls list are BOTH using the SAME MIDI I/O devices, namely the ones called "usb apparaat".
> You can edit the MIDI I/O devices of each BCR context in the MIDI -> Options dialog box.
> 
> > Yup, I installed Behringer drivers but was advised to deïnstall 
> > somewhere on the net.
> 
> Well, I can only say I disagree completely...
> 
> For one thing, the Microsoft drivers are "single-client": you can only connect one application at any moment in time to a particular port.
> The Behringer drivers allow you to connect as many programs simultaneously as you wish.
> 
> > I have a standard XP sp3 OS
> 
> I have XP+SP3 myself, and I can warmly recommend Behringer's 1.2.1.3 driver.
> This is the only driver that creates fully correct, transparent, persistent I/O device names, including the Device IDs, and (in U-2, U-3 and U-4) the correct port letters of the MIDI IN and OUT sockets.
> For instance, a BCR with Device ID 1 gets called "BCR2000[1]".
> So in your case you could then set the second BCR's Device ID to 2; this BCR will then ALWAYS be called "BCR2000[2]", even if you haven't switched the other BCR on.
> Basically you'll always know which is which.
> 
> >  > (I suppose that if you put BCR2 in U-3, you get names like "usb 
> > device (2) [2]" or something?)
> > 
> > I have seen that happening :)
> 
> Yes, me too, actually. I have one BCR and one BCF, but the Microsoft driver doesn't distinguish between those two either, so it gave me the same "device (2) [2]" headaches...
> 
> Best wishes,
> Mark.
>

--- In bc2000@yahoogroups.com, "diddywahdiddy1" <550@...> wrote:
> At your suggestion I did a renewed install of the Behringer drivers. 
> Immediately things deteriorated. Yes, usb-apparaat is now BCR-2000 but 
> BC manager does not recognize the BCRs anymore (B-controls is empty). 
> input and output meters In my apps they are working in the sense that 
> one controller has input and output, the other one only output (meaning: 
> it receives no feedback from the DAW).
> 
> I do get a message from windows that there is an i/o error but it's 
> unclear from which device. I will have start all over again.....

First try to establish whether your USB driver setup is correct.
Try these steps:

1. Make sure that one BCR has device ID 1 and the other 2.

2. Open Windows' Device Manager, e.g. via Windows' Start Menu -> Settings -> Control Panel -> System -> Hardware.
(I don't know the Dutch version's names of all of this, but they should be relatively easy to find.)
In Device Manager, open the item "Sound, video and game controllers":
there should be two items called "B-Control Midi (10/19/2005, 1.2.1.3)".
(And there should NOT be any "old" drivers called "usb apparaat" or Behringer drivers with other version numbers.)
While Device Manager is open, try switching each BCR off and on: its item should automatically disappear and re-appear in the list correspondingly (after a few seconds).
If all this works as described above, your USB driver configuration is probably correct, and any further problems are only related to individual audio applications (BC Manager, Reaper, etc.).

In BC Manager you can then simply run "Restart with default setup" and both BCRs should be immediately listed and accessible.

Alternatively, follow the steps described in BC Manager Manual, section 6.
Note that you can add BCR "contexts" to the B-Controls list manually via B-Control -> "New BCR2000" (and remove items via "Close selected").
You can then manually assign the correct MIDI I/O ports and Device IDs to each BCR via MIDI -> Options.

One important thing to keep in mind is that you should not switch a BCR off or on (nor change its actual device ID) while BC Manager (or indeed any other audio program) is running: BC Manager won't be able to work with the new situation until you restart BC Manager (e.g. via its Restart operation).

Hope this helps,
Mark.

Did this and magically everything seems to be in order. B-controls even shows to ONline devices. WOW!! Now, I'll keep my fingers crossed, still a bit uncertain about whether this will stick. But after shutting down and rebooting the pc both devices are still going strong.

Thanks, Mark!

--- In bc2000@yahoogroups.com, "Mark v.d. Berg" <markwinvdb@...> wrote:

>
> --- In bc2000@yahoogroups.com, "diddywahdiddy1" <550@> wrote:
> > At your suggestion I did a renewed install of the Behringer drivers. 
> > Immediately things deteriorated. Yes, usb-apparaat is now BCR-2000 but 
> > BC manager does not recognize the BCRs anymore (B-controls is empty). 
> > input and output meters In my apps they are working in the sense that 
> > one controller has input and output, the other one only output (meaning: 
> > it receives no feedback from the DAW).
> > 
> > I do get a message from windows that there is an i/o error but it's 
> > unclear from which device. I will have start all over again.....
> 
> First try to establish whether your USB driver setup is correct.
> Try these steps:
> 
> 1. Make sure that one BCR has device ID 1 and the other 2.
> 
> 2. Open Windows' Device Manager, e.g. via Windows' Start Menu -> Settings -> Control Panel -> System -> Hardware.
> (I don't know the Dutch version's names of all of this, but they should be relatively easy to find.)
> In Device Manager, open the item "Sound, video and game controllers":
> there should be two items called "B-Control Midi (10/19/2005, 1.2.1.3)".
> (And there should NOT be any "old" drivers called "usb apparaat" or Behringer drivers with other version numbers.)
> While Device Manager is open, try switching each BCR off and on: its item should automatically disappear and re-appear in the list correspondingly (after a few seconds).
> If all this works as described above, your USB driver configuration is probably correct, and any further problems are only related to individual audio applications (BC Manager, Reaper, etc.).
> 
> In BC Manager you can then simply run "Restart with default setup" and both BCRs should be immediately listed and accessible.
> 
> Alternatively, follow the steps described in BC Manager Manual, section 6.
> Note that you can add BCR "contexts" to the B-Controls list manually via B-Control -> "New BCR2000" (and remove items via "Close selected").
> You can then manually assign the correct MIDI I/O ports and Device IDs to each BCR via MIDI -> Options.
> 
> One important thing to keep in mind is that you should not switch a BCR off or on (nor change its actual device ID) while BC Manager (or indeed any other audio program) is running: BC Manager won't be able to work with the new situation until you restart BC Manager (e.g. via its Restart operation).
> 
> Hope this helps,
> Mark.
>

Hai
if everything works, can you tell us what you had to do exactly ?

Berk



>-- Oorspronkelijk bericht --
>To: bc2000@yahoogroups.com
>From: "diddywahdiddy1" <550@...>
>Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2011 14:53:32 -0000
>Subject: [bc2000] Re: TWO BCR as controller
>Reply-To: bc2000@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>Did this and magically everything seems to be in order. B-controls even
shows
>to ONline devices. WOW!! Now, I'll keep my fingers crossed, still a bit
uncertain
>about whether this will stick. But after shutting down and rebooting the
>pc both devices are still going strong.
>
>Thanks, Mark!
>
>--- In bc2000@yahoogroups.com, "Mark v.d. Berg" <markwinvdb@...> wrote:
>>
>> --- In bc2000@yahoogroups.com, "diddywahdiddy1" <550@> wrote:
>> > At your suggestion I did a renewed install of the Behringer drivers.
>
>> > Immediately things deteriorated. Yes, usb-apparaat is now BCR-2000 but
>
>> > BC manager does not recognize the BCRs anymore (B-controls is empty).
>
>> > input and output meters In my apps they are working in the sense that
>
>> > one controller has input and output, the other one only output (meaning:
>
>> > it receives no feedback from the DAW).
>> > 
>> > I do get a message from windows that there is an i/o error but it's

>> > unclear from which device. I will have start all over again.....
>> 
>> First try to establish whether your USB driver setup is correct.
>> Try these steps:
>> 
>> 1. Make sure that one BCR has device ID 1 and the other 2.
>> 
>> 2. Open Windows' Device Manager, e.g. via Windows' Start Menu -> Settings
>-> Control Panel -> System -> Hardware.
>> (I don't know the Dutch version's names of all of this, but they should
>be relatively easy to find.)
>> In Device Manager, open the item "Sound, video and game controllers":
>> there should be two items called "B-Control Midi (10/19/2005, 1.2.1.3)".
>> (And there should NOT be any "old" drivers called "usb apparaat" or Behringer
>drivers with other version numbers.)
>> While Device Manager is open, try switching each BCR off and on: its item
>should automatically disappear and re-appear in the list correspondingly
>(after a few seconds).
>> If all this works as described above, your USB driver configuration is
>probably correct, and any further problems are only related to individual
>audio applications (BC Manager, Reaper, etc.).
>> 
>> In BC Manager you can then simply run "Restart with default setup" and
>both BCRs should be immediately listed and accessible.
>> 
>> Alternatively, follow the steps described in BC Manager Manual, section
>6.
>> Note that you can add BCR "contexts" to the B-Controls list manually via
>B-Control -> "New BCR2000" (and remove items via "Close selected").
>> You can then manually assign the correct MIDI I/O ports and Device IDs
>to each BCR via MIDI -> Options.
>> 
>> One important thing to keep in mind is that you should not switch a BCR
>off or on (nor change its actual device ID) while BC Manager (or indeed
any

>other audio program) is running: BC Manager won't be able to work with the
>new situation until you restart BC Manager (e.g. via its Restart operation).
>> 
>> Hope this helps,
>> Mark.
>>
>
>
>
>
>------------------------------------
>
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

--- In bc2000@yahoogroups.com, "Berk Aarts" <B.E.R.K@...> wrote:
> if everything works, can you tell us what you had to do exactly ?

I'm not sure how Diddywahdiddy1 sees this, but here are my thoughts:

I think that troubleshooting a BCF/BCR setup has three main stages:

1. The BCF/R itself:
- Has the latest firmware (1.10) been installed?
- Do all the buttons/knobs/faders work?
- Have you set up the correct operating mode (S/U-1/2/3/4) and device ID?
- Does the USB controller work?

2. The MIDI/USB cables.
- Are they connected correctly?
- Does the USB hub work correctly?
Etc.

3. Only required in U-1/2/3/4 mode: the USB driver software on the computer.
- Are you using the best USB driver for your OS?
- Are there any interfering left-over USB drivers?
Etc.

4. The set-up of any audio software using the BCF/BCR(s).
- Does the software use the correct MIDI I/O ports?
- (In the case of BC Manager:) Is the right Device ID being used?

Ideally these stages should be checked in this order, since an error at an earlier stage will affect all following stages.
In this sense, the USB controller on the BCF/BCR is a complicating factor: even if it's defective (which has occurred to me and several other people), it often only affects the working of your audio software, which can be very confusing.

But in this particular case with 2 BCRs, the root of all problems turned out to be the USB driver, namely Microsoft's default "USB Audio Device" (or "usb apparaat" in the Dutch version).
This driver caused several problems:

- The MIDI I/O port names were confusing.

- The port names changed dynamically for the 2 BCRs:
If the "first" BCR wasn't switched on, the "second" would get the first's port names.
Note that this also complicated the troubleshooting process: by trying to isolate the problem (by switching only one BCR on), the SITUATION was changed crucially - causing further confusion!

So replacing the Microsoft driver with the Behringer 1.2.1.3 took away the root of all problems.
It then just remained to clear up the lingering "fog", by configuring BC Manager correctly.

And of course it's crucial never to change a BCF/R's operating mode or device ID on the BCF/R itself while an audio program like BC Manager is running.

Incidentally: in response to Diddywahdiddy1's complaint about BC Manager's status messages, the upcoming version of BC Manager (see http://home.kpn.nl/f2hmjvandenberg281/plans.html) will probably indicate the status of the MIDI I/O ports more explicitly in the B-Controls window:

I'm thinking of changing "*Name" into "DISABLED Name" and "(Name)" into "ABSENT Name".
Although these longer tags may look a bit ugly, they should help to avoid further confusion in cases where there is a setup problem.
Anyone please let me know if you have a better idea.

Mark.

--- In bc2000@yahoogroups.com, "Mark v.d. Berg" <markwinvdb@...> wrote:
> I think that troubleshooting a BCF/BCR setup has three main stages:

FOUR main stages...

Mark (aka Monty Python's Spanish Inquisition)

Soooooo.... the dreaded moment has arrived : I had to change my setup and after reconnecting everything mayhem started. Meaning: the BCR's fucked up.

Okay, first of all : Berk, read about my solution at the Reaper forum. This is a detailed instruction on how to get the 2 BCR's working. 
http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?=695970

I have gone through a lot of hassle and am now stock at #9 of the mentioned description. So, both BCR's have their own ID's, they are both recognized in the audio hardware setup, they are both back in default/factory state.

So, what's wrong? BC Manager only sees ID1. I cannot for the love of god get ID2 online. I have tried with MIDI>options but BC manager receives no firmware information and so ID2 stays 'offline'.

The strangest thing is, that in the main window > options > midi devices, both BCR's are listed and (of course) both activated.

I guess the grand wizard has to take the stage again...

thanks in advance

JS

--- In bc2000@yahoogroups.com, "Berk Aarts" <B.E.R.K@...> wrote:

>
> Hai
> if everything works, can you tell us what you had to do exactly ?
> 
> Berk
> 
> 
> 
> >-- Oorspronkelijk bericht --
> >To: bc2000@yahoogroups.com
> >From: "diddywahdiddy1" <550@...>
> >Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2011 14:53:32 -0000
> >Subject: [bc2000] Re: TWO BCR as controller
> >Reply-To: bc2000@...m
> >
> >
> >Did this and magically everything seems to be in order. B-controls even
> shows
> >to ONline devices. WOW!! Now, I'll keep my fingers crossed, still a bit
> uncertain
> >about whether this will stick. But after shutting down and rebooting the
> >pc both devices are still going strong.
> >
> >Thanks, Mark!
> >
> >--- In bc2000@yahoogroups.com, "Mark v.d. Berg" <markwinvdb@> wrote:
> >>
> >> --- In bc2000@yahoogroups.com, "diddywahdiddy1" <550@> wrote:
> >> > At your suggestion I did a renewed install of the Behringer drivers.
> >
> >> > Immediately things deteriorated. Yes, usb-apparaat is now BCR-2000 but
> >
> >> > BC manager does not recognize the BCRs anymore (B-controls is empty).
> >
> >> > input and output meters In my apps they are working in the sense that
> >
> >> > one controller has input and output, the other one only output (meaning:
> >
> >> > it receives no feedback from the DAW).
> >> > 
> >> > I do get a message from windows that there is an i/o error but it's
> 
> >> > unclear from which device. I will have start all over again.....
> >> 
> >> First try to establish whether your USB driver setup is correct.
> >> Try these steps:
> >> 
> >> 1. Make sure that one BCR has device ID 1 and the other 2.
> >> 
> >> 2. Open Windows' Device Manager, e.g. via Windows' Start Menu -> Settings
> >-> Control Panel -> System -> Hardware.
> >> (I don't know the Dutch version's names of all of this, but they should
> >be relatively easy to find.)
> >> In Device Manager, open the item "Sound, video and game controllers":
> >> there should be two items called "B-Control Midi (10/19/2005, 1.2.1.3)".
> >> (And there should NOT be any "old" drivers called "usb apparaat" or Behringer
> >drivers with other version numbers.)
> >> While Device Manager is open, try switching each BCR off and on: its item
> >should automatically disappear and re-appear in the list correspondingly
> >(after a few seconds).
> >> If all this works as described above, your USB driver configuration is
> >probably correct, and any further problems are only related to individual
> >audio applications (BC Manager, Reaper, etc.).
> >> 
> >> In BC Manager you can then simply run "Restart with default setup" and
> >both BCRs should be immediately listed and accessible.
> >> 
> >> Alternatively, follow the steps described in BC Manager Manual, section
> >6.
> >> Note that you can add BCR "contexts" to the B-Controls list manually via
> >B-Control -> "New BCR2000" (and remove items via "Close selected").
> >> You can then manually assign the correct MIDI I/O ports and Device IDs
> >to each BCR via MIDI -> Options.
> >> 
> >> One important thing to keep in mind is that you should not switch a BCR
> >off or on (nor change its actual device ID) while BC Manager (or indeed
> any
> >other audio program) is running: BC Manager won't be able to work with the
> >new situation until you restart BC Manager (e.g. via its Restart operation).
> >> 
> >> Hope this helps,
> >> Mark.
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >------------------------------------
> >
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
>

--- In bc2000@yahoogroups.com, "diddywahdiddy1" <550@...> wrote:
>
> Soooooo.... the dreaded moment has arrived : I had to change my setup and after reconnecting everything mayhem started. Meaning: the BCR's fucked up.

> I have gone through a lot of hassle and am now stock at #9 of the mentioned description. So, both BCR's have their own ID's, they are both recognized in the audio hardware setup, they are both back in default/factory state.
> 
> So, what's wrong? BC Manager only sees ID1. I cannot for the love of god get ID2 online. I have tried with MIDI>options but BC manager receives no firmware information and so ID2 stays 'offline'.

> The strangest thing is, that in the main window > options > midi devices, both BCR's are listed and (of course) both activated.

Are you using the most recent version of BC Manager (2.3.1)?
This version has slightly more informative status messages in the MIDI input/output port columns in the B-Controls window than previous versions.

Quoting from the manual:

"For clarity, the name of a disabled MIDI I/O device is no longer prefixed by an asterisk (*), but by `DISABLED ', and the name of an absent MIDI I/O device is no longer written between parentheses, but prefixed by `ABSENT '."

So what do these columns show for your 2nd BCR?
If there's "DISABLED" or "ABSENT" somewhere, the problem has to do with the BCR's USB device:

"DISABLED" can be corrected in the main window's "MIDI devices" dialog box by enabling the MIDI I/O device.

"ABSENT" means that the MIDI I/O device name you've been using in BC Manager is currently invalid. In the "MIDI options" dialog box of the BCR you should select an EXISTING (and enabled!) MIDI I/O device.

And of course the actual BCR's ID# should match the ID# defined in BC Manager (which can also be set in the "MIDI options" dialog box of the BCR).

For further information (in particular possible causes for the "Offline" message), see BC Manager Manual (for vs. 2.3.1), p. 32.

Hope this helps,
Mark.

hi Mark

yes, I am using the latest version. I can see the absent and/or disabled state messages when they are appropriate. The thing is that the BCM refuses to show the second BCR. I can see that they are both connected, in the windows sound device info AND in BCM itself in the device list. But I am unable to connect the second device.

I use the BCR's to control Reaper DAW (controlling 16 channels, volume, panning, mute and send and start.stop.record.loop and what not). Reaper both receives and sends mid control messages. The second BCR is now unable to receive the control messages of Reaper. So BCR1 is able to send and receive and BCR2 is able to send but not receive.

What bothers me the most is that I cannot control the BCR2 in BC manager. Even if I set up manually (add BCR2000, set the deviceID, etc) BC Manager is not able to connect to it (as stated in my previous message).


> Are you using the most recent version of BC Manager (2.3.1)?
> This version has slightly more informative status messages in the MIDI input/output port columns in the B-Controls window than previous versions.

ANd last but not least: I cannot get BCR2 into default/factory settings (using exit/store while booting up). I do get the 'init' message but then things return to their previous setting.

> 
> Quoting from the manual:
> 
> "For clarity, the name of a disabled MIDI I/O device is no longer prefixed by an asterisk (*), but by `DISABLED ', and the name of an absent MIDI I/O device is no longer written between parentheses, but prefixed by `ABSENT '."
> 
> So what do these columns show for your 2nd BCR?
> If there's "DISABLED" or "ABSENT" somewhere, the problem has to do with the BCR's USB device:
> 
> "DISABLED" can be corrected in the main window's "MIDI devices" dialog box by enabling the MIDI I/O device.
> 
> "ABSENT" means that the MIDI I/O device name you've been using in BC Manager is currently invalid. In the "MIDI options" dialog box of the BCR you should select an EXISTING (and enabled!) MIDI I/O device.
> 
> And of course the actual BCR's ID# should match the ID# defined in BC Manager (which can also be set in the "MIDI options" dialog box of the BCR).
> 
> For further information (in particular possible causes for the "Offline" message), see BC Manager Manual (for vs. 2.3.1), p. 32.
> 
> Hope this helps,
> Mark.
>

***STOP PRESS*** ***STOP PRESS*** ***STOP PRESS*** ***STOP PRESS***

Starting with the head line: It's working again!

I don't know how exactly, but after rebooting for the n-th time and restarting BCM with default settings suddenly I saw that BCM recognized two (2!!!) BCR's. I had not done anything other than I had during my previous sessions, but apparently these things happen (as all people working with technology know). I always credit it either to voodoo or an itch in the software that has disappeared.

Okay, everyone who's been cracking their skulls on this one: thanks.

js

oh, btw: wouldn't it be a great idea to start a Facebook group on the BC Manager subject?

--- In bc2000@yahoogroups.com, "diddywahdiddy1" <550@...> wrote:

>
> hi Mark
> 
> yes, I am using the latest version. I can see the absent and/or disabled state messages when they are appropriate. The thing is that the BCM refuses to show the second BCR. I can see that they are both connected, in the windows sound device info AND in BCM itself in the device list. But I am unable to connect the second device.
> 
> I use the BCR's to control Reaper DAW (controlling 16 channels, volume, panning, mute and send and start.stop.record.loop and what not). Reaper both receives and sends mid control messages. The second BCR is now unable to receive the control messages of Reaper. So BCR1 is able to send and receive and BCR2 is able to send but not receive.
> 
> What bothers me the most is that I cannot control the BCR2 in BC manager. Even if I set up manually (add BCR2000, set the deviceID, etc) BC Manager is not able to connect to it (as stated in my previous message).
> 
> 
> > Are you using the most recent version of BC Manager (2.3.1)?
> > This version has slightly more informative status messages in the MIDI input/output port columns in the B-Controls window than previous versions.
> 
> ANd last but not least: I cannot get BCR2 into default/factory settings (using exit/store while booting up). I do get the 'init' message but then things return to their previous setting.
> > 
> > Quoting from the manual:
> > 
> > "For clarity, the name of a disabled MIDI I/O device is no longer prefixed by an asterisk (*), but by `DISABLED ', and the name of an absent MIDI I/O device is no longer written between parentheses, but prefixed by `ABSENT '."
> > 
> > So what do these columns show for your 2nd BCR?
> > If there's "DISABLED" or "ABSENT" somewhere, the problem has to do with the BCR's USB device:
> > 
> > "DISABLED" can be corrected in the main window's "MIDI devices" dialog box by enabling the MIDI I/O device.
> > 
> > "ABSENT" means that the MIDI I/O device name you've been using in BC Manager is currently invalid. In the "MIDI options" dialog box of the BCR you should select an EXISTING (and enabled!) MIDI I/O device.
> > 
> > And of course the actual BCR's ID# should match the ID# defined in BC Manager (which can also be set in the "MIDI options" dialog box of the BCR).
> > 
> > For further information (in particular possible causes for the "Offline" message), see BC Manager Manual (for vs. 2.3.1), p. 32.
> > 
> > Hope this helps,
> > Mark.
> >
>