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cgs65 cv issues

cgs65 cv issues

2007-12-05 by prophei

hello all,

for the life of me, i can not get any response whatsoever from anything on the cgs65 that is
related to control voltage. this includes the 2 pots that connect there and the cv input.

i get audio through the audio input and out that is affected by the control pot there.

i have tried rechecking all of my solder points, tried swapping out the lm358 for another,
tried replacing the trimmer... and i am just not sure where else i best look. any suggestions
regarding the critical points to check?

given that nothing works down there, must the issue be between pin 1 of the lm358 and the
5pin of the tube?

thanks!

-michael

Re: cgs65 cv issues

2007-12-06 by bbluthang

Have you tried to set it up as per Ken`s instructions?

SetInitial Gain pot to 0, no CV in, feed in an audio signal and
adjust the trimmer until you cannot hear anything on the output.

Once you have done this, plug in a CV signal and adjust initial Gain
to get it VCAing as you like.

If you have tried all this, and still no effect. What voltage are
you getting on pin 1 and does it change when you adjust the initial
Gain pot? (It should!)
cheers
Andrew
Show quoted textHide quoted text
--- In cgs_synth@yahoogroups.com, "prophei" <prophei@...> wrote:
>
> hello all,
>
> for the life of me, i can not get any response whatsoever from
anything on the cgs65 that is
> related to control voltage. this includes the 2 pots that connect
there and the cv input.
>
> i get audio through the audio input and out that is affected by
the control pot there.
>
> i have tried rechecking all of my solder points, tried swapping
out the lm358 for another,
> tried replacing the trimmer... and i am just not sure where else i
best look. any suggestions
> regarding the critical points to check?
>
> given that nothing works down there, must the issue be between pin
1 of the lm358 and the
> 5pin of the tube?
>
> thanks!
>
> -michael
>

Re: cgs65 cv issues

2007-12-07 by prophei

--- In cgs_synth@yahoogroups.com, "bbluthang" <jumpswine@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> Have you tried to set it up as per Ken`s instructions?
>
> SetInitial Gain pot to 0, no CV in, feed in an audio signal and
> adjust the trimmer until you cannot hear anything on the output.
>
> Once you have done this, plug in a CV signal and adjust initial Gain
> to get it VCAing as you like.
>
> If you have tried all this, and still no effect. What voltage are
> you getting on pin 1 and does it change when you adjust the initial
> Gain pot? (It should!)
> cheers
> Andrew


thanks for the response andrew...

i have followed the instructions, but the problems start right off. the initial gain pot and cv
level pots are useless as they affect nothing. following your instruction doesn't do much as
sound passes through solely based on the input level/drive pot, and the trimmer does
nothing no matter how it is turned. it is almost like the entire upper half of the pcb is
completely non functional.

i get the tube on. i get the leds lit up. i get sound through the in to the out if the input
level is up... but other than this, not a thing responds to anything i try.

i am inclined to believe that all of my issues must stem from one error or oversight that
links this all together, as i have done plenty of builds more complex than this with almost
zero issues. i am completely baffled and must be missing something right in front of my
eyes! :)

Re: cgs65 cv issues

2007-12-07 by prophei

--- In cgs_synth@yahoogroups.com, "bbluthang" <jumpswine@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> Have you tried to set it up as per Ken`s instructions?
>
> SetInitial Gain pot to 0, no CV in, feed in an audio signal and
> adjust the trimmer until you cannot hear anything on the output.
>
> Once you have done this, plug in a CV signal and adjust initial Gain
> to get it VCAing as you like.
>
> If you have tried all this, and still no effect. What voltage are
> you getting on pin 1 and does it change when you adjust the initial
> Gain pot? (It should!)
> cheers
> Andrew

i just went to test pin 1 of the lm358, and found nothing there. then i somehow blew the
ferrite bead (i had a resistor here) located next to the cv inputs to the board. i have no idea
how i did this, and want to think it was pure coincidence (tho this may be a rather unlikely
thing). all i have ever been able to measure around this ic has been positive and negative
power (on pins 8 and 4 respectively).

i replaced the blown bead (resistor) mentioned above and then swapped the lm358 for a
5532 i had sitting here to see what would happen. this chip gave me actual readings on
the pins. pin one was registering a 12.5. i still was unable to get anything to work
properly, and noticed that the 5532 seemed rather warm, so i pulled it and quit for now.

i sit here scratching my head yet again.

Re: cgs65 cv issues

2007-12-07 by bbluthang

bet you are glad you used a socket.
With no chip in the LM358 socket, check the voltage on pin 6 of the
socket and adjust the trimmer, does the voltage change? If so, at
least your CV input should be okay.

With the chip, if it gets hot, suspect a short somewhere or possibly
a resistor is incorrect.

Maybe it is worth mentioning, have you got the tube pins wired in
the right order? it can be confusing (I say this from experience :-
)) if you are new to tubes.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
--- In cgs_synth@yahoogroups.com, "prophei" <prophei@...> wrote:
>
> --- In cgs_synth@yahoogroups.com, "bbluthang" <jumpswine@> wrote:
> >
> > Have you tried to set it up as per Ken`s instructions?
> >
> > SetInitial Gain pot to 0, no CV in, feed in an audio signal and
> > adjust the trimmer until you cannot hear anything on the output.
> >
> > Once you have done this, plug in a CV signal and adjust initial
Gain
> > to get it VCAing as you like.
> >
> > If you have tried all this, and still no effect. What voltage
are
> > you getting on pin 1 and does it change when you adjust the
initial
> > Gain pot? (It should!)
> > cheers
> > Andrew
>
> i just went to test pin 1 of the lm358, and found nothing there.
then i somehow blew the
> ferrite bead (i had a resistor here) located next to the cv inputs
to the board. i have no idea
> how i did this, and want to think it was pure coincidence (tho
this may be a rather unlikely
> thing). all i have ever been able to measure around this ic has
been positive and negative
> power (on pins 8 and 4 respectively).
>
> i replaced the blown bead (resistor) mentioned above and then
swapped the lm358 for a
> 5532 i had sitting here to see what would happen. this chip gave
me actual readings on
> the pins. pin one was registering a 12.5. i still was unable to
get anything to work
> properly, and noticed that the 5532 seemed rather warm, so i
pulled it and quit for now.
>
> i sit here scratching my head yet again.
>

Re: cgs65 cv issues

2007-12-07 by prophei

i am glad i used a socket! i try to do that every time, it seems to avoid a world of hurt.

i tested the voltage on pin 6 and did notice a change when i turned the trimmer. the
voltage was kind of low, i am not sure what to expect there. i also noted that on pin 7, i
saw roughly the same behavior as on pin 6.

i have looked time and time again for a short, and it seems clearly lacking one...but i really
could go through my resistor values again, and will do that next. are there any in
particular i should take the most note of in this circuit?

i have re-checked my tube, and i am very confident that the pins are right. thanks for
making me look though... it was a lingering concern.

i appreciate all the help, thank you!

-michael
Show quoted textHide quoted text
--- In cgs_synth@yahoogroups.com, "bbluthang" <jumpswine@...> wrote:
>
> bet you are glad you used a socket.
> With no chip in the LM358 socket, check the voltage on pin 6 of the
> socket and adjust the trimmer, does the voltage change? If so, at
> least your CV input should be okay.
>
> With the chip, if it gets hot, suspect a short somewhere or possibly
> a resistor is incorrect.
>
> Maybe it is worth mentioning, have you got the tube pins wired in
> the right order? it can be confusing (I say this from experience :-
> )) if you are new to tubes.
>
>
>
>
> --- In cgs_synth@yahoogroups.com, "prophei" <prophei@> wrote:
> >
> > --- In cgs_synth@yahoogroups.com, "bbluthang" <jumpswine@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Have you tried to set it up as per Ken`s instructions?
> > >
> > > SetInitial Gain pot to 0, no CV in, feed in an audio signal and
> > > adjust the trimmer until you cannot hear anything on the output.
> > >
> > > Once you have done this, plug in a CV signal and adjust initial
> Gain
> > > to get it VCAing as you like.
> > >
> > > If you have tried all this, and still no effect. What voltage
> are
> > > you getting on pin 1 and does it change when you adjust the
> initial
> > > Gain pot? (It should!)
> > > cheers
> > > Andrew
> >
> > i just went to test pin 1 of the lm358, and found nothing there.
> then i somehow blew the
> > ferrite bead (i had a resistor here) located next to the cv inputs
> to the board. i have no idea
> > how i did this, and want to think it was pure coincidence (tho
> this may be a rather unlikely
> > thing). all i have ever been able to measure around this ic has
> been positive and negative
> > power (on pins 8 and 4 respectively).
> >
> > i replaced the blown bead (resistor) mentioned above and then
> swapped the lm358 for a
> > 5532 i had sitting here to see what would happen. this chip gave
> me actual readings on
> > the pins. pin one was registering a 12.5. i still was unable to
> get anything to work
> > properly, and noticed that the 5532 seemed rather warm, so i
> pulled it and quit for now.
> >
> > i sit here scratching my head yet again.
> >
>

Re: cgs65 cv issues

2007-12-14 by prophei

i still can't figure this out. ugh. i am certifiably baffled by this one. :)

Re: cgs65 cv issues

2007-12-29 by prophei

--- In cgs_synth@yahoogroups.com, "prophei" <prophei@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> i still can't figure this out. ugh. i am certifiably baffled by this one. :)
>


anybody have any other idea's? still no cv activity at all. sound just goes straight through... no
vca action, no changes with cv... etc

thanks!

p.s. just build the wave multiplier... WOW that thing is beautiful! :)

Re: cgs65 cv issues

2007-12-29 by sasami@hotkey.net.au

Failing all else, mail it to me so I can look. You've certainly does
something wrong somewhere.

Ken
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>--- In cgs_synth@yahoogroups.com, "prophei" <prophei@...> wrote:
>>
>> i still can't figure this out. ugh. i am certifiably baffled by this one. :)
>>
>
>
>anybody have any other idea's? still no cv activity at all. sound just goes
straight through... no
>vca action, no changes with cv... etc
>
>thanks!
>
>p.s. just build the wave multiplier... WOW that thing is beautiful! :)
>
>
>
>
>The CGS Modular Synth home page: http://www.cgs.synth.net/
>
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
_______________________________________________________________________
Ken Stone sasami@...
Modular Synth PCBs for sale <http://www.cgs.synth.net/>
Australian Miniature Horses & Ponies <http://www.blaze.net.au/~sasami/>

Re: cgs65 cv issues

2007-12-29 by Michael Ford

Hi Michael,

If you're measuring 12.5V on pin one of the LM358, your problem is
there. Check to see if all the resistor values are correct and all
solder joints are nice and shiny.

If you used a different chip here, replace it with the correct LM358.
There's a notice on Ken's page:

"Do not replace the LM358 with another type. It was chosen for its
ability to drive down to its negative rail."

Hope this helps,

Michael Ford
--
http://www.metalbox.com
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Dec 28, 2007, at 10:36 PM, prophei wrote:

> --- In cgs_synth@yahoogroups.com, "prophei" <prophei@...> wrote:
> >
> > i still can't figure this out. ugh. i am certifiably baffled by
> this one. :)
> >
>
> anybody have any other idea's? still no cv activity at all. sound
> just goes straight through... no
> vca action, no changes with cv... etc
>
> thanks!
>
> p.s. just build the wave multiplier... WOW that thing is beautiful! :)
>
>
>

Re: cgs65 cv issues

2007-12-29 by Mark

On 12/29/07, prophei put forth:
>--- In cgs_synth@yahoogroups.com, "prophei" <prophei@...> wrote:
> >
> > i still can't figure this out. ugh. i am certifiably baffled by
>this one. :)
> >
>
>
>anybody have any other idea's? still no cv activity at all. sound
>just goes straight through... no
>vca action, no changes with cv... etc

I haven't got around to building mine yet. I got all the parts
including a nice MOTM-format panel from Bridechamber, but I've been
way too busy.

Look on the bright side, if the signal goes straight through, at
least you know the audio path works :)

Although maybe it's working too well. Make sure that you didn't
bypass the tube circuit in some way by accidently connecting
something or using too much solder. With power off, check the
resistance between pins 5 of the TL072 with and the audio input
circuit, and check the resistance between pin 6 of the TL072 and the
audio input circuit, making sure you didn't accidently connect the
output amp to the input amp or rest of the input circuit.

If the audio path seems fine, then check the CV circuit. With the
power on, the pots turned all the way down, and no signal at any of
the inputs, check the voltage at pin 5 of the tube. If it shows a
significant voltage I would measure the voltages around the CV amp.

Check the power pins of the LM358.

If there is a significant voltage at pin 7, then check the output of
the the trimpot and gain pots -- make sure they are at zero. If
there is still a voltage at pin 7, turn the power off, and check the
resistance between pins 7 and 6. It should be the value of the
feedback resistor. If the resistance is near zero, check for a short
and measure the cap if you have a capacitance meter. If it is near
infinity, check for a bad solder connection. Check that there is no
significant resistance between pin 5 and the ground on the power
connector for the module.

If there is no voltage at pin 7, but a voltage at pin 1, turn the
power off, and check the resistance between pins 1 and 2. It should
be the value of the feedback resistor. If it is near zero, check for
a short and measure the cap if you have a capacitance meter. If it
is near infinity, check for a bad solder connection. Check that
there is no significant resistance between pin 3 and the ground on
the power connector for the module.

Check the CV filter. Check all the connections. Check the cap.
Measure the resistance from pin 7 to pin 2. If the inverting input
(pin 2) of second amp is disconnected or shorted to ground, you won't
be able to adjust its output with the trimpot.

Check to see that the trimpot is working and that you can adjust a
negative voltage at its 100K resistor.

When the CV circuit is working properly, changing the value of the
trimpot should directly change the voltage output of each amp (pin 1
will go down as pin 7 goes up), and therefore the voltage at pin 5 of
the tube. If this does not work, check the CV circuit again. (Be
careful with the amount of trim, as each inverting amp has a gain of
around 2, too much negative voltage from the trimpot will clip the
amp. I'm not sure why its connected directly to the negative rail.)

If you are getting a negative voltage at pin 1 of the LM358, but not
pin 5 of the tube, check the connections. With the power off, does
the resistance between pin 1 of the LM358 and pin 5 of the tube
measure 100K?? Is pin 5 shorted to ground??

If that works, and you can adjust the voltage at pin 5 of the tube,
and adjusting the trimpot (with no external CV input and the gain pot
all the way down) resulting in a negative voltage at pin 5 of the
tube that doesn't mute the audio, then turn the the power off and
check all the connections around the tube with an ohmmeter, going
from the tube itself to legs of all the components connected to it.
Measure the resistance between the plate and the positive power
connector for the module, and between the cathode (pin 2) and the
negative power connector. Since in this particular design, the
cathode is connected to a negative voltage, the tube may conduct if
either of the grids are floating (as they would be positive in
relation to the cathode). Is there any resistance between the
cathode (pin 2) and the suppression grid (pin 4)?? With the power
on, but no signal, what is the DC bias at pin 6?? What is the
voltage at the suppression grid??

I hope this helps :)

Re: cgs65 cv issues

2007-12-29 by prophei

Ok, I FINALLY found the problem!

Being a little bit of a newbie at this, I trusted the package markings on my 1% resistors as
being accurate. It seems that when I bought them, I had my 220k's mislabeled as they are
really 220R's! I had the wrong 220's installed. I finally figured this out and changed these
resistors to the proper values. Now the cv section is working, and I was able to get
something that sounded right.

Thank you all so much for staying with me on this most perplexing problem... it is VERY
much appreciated!

-Michael
Show quoted textHide quoted text
--- In cgs_synth@yahoogroups.com, "prophei" <prophei@...> wrote:
>
> hello all,
>
> for the life of me, i can not get any response whatsoever from anything on the cgs65
that is
> related to control voltage. this includes the 2 pots that connect there and the cv input.
>
> i get audio through the audio input and out that is affected by the control pot there.
>
> i have tried rechecking all of my solder points, tried swapping out the lm358 for
another,
> tried replacing the trimmer... and i am just not sure where else i best look. any
suggestions
> regarding the critical points to check?
>
> given that nothing works down there, must the issue be between pin 1 of the lm358 and
the
> 5pin of the tube?
>
> thanks!
>
> -michael
>

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