Datacolor User to User Support Group.

Hello, I do some background painting for my photo business and have
been using the spectro or maybe is it called a colorimeter, I dont
know, to measure paint swatches. But anyway I have to take the lab
values from the measure function in PFP and hand type them into the
photoshop colorpicker, make a swatch page, save it, then open it up in
a free munsell converter to measure the swatches to get the munsell
values. For those that dont know munsell is a color measurement system
based on the artists color wheel.

Anyway I was wondering, if there was a better way to get munsell from
the LAB numbers that PFP puts out.

Now Xrite makes a free program that lets you use there spectro for
doing spot color work called Ishare that allows the spectro to be used
for some basic spot color work. It would be nice if colorvision would
do something similar in an upgrade or something. 

Feel Free to Chime in here CD. :o)

Randy Laskody

Thanks for the reply CD,

Yes I was aware that xrite owns munsell stuff, but..I was not aware
that a standard like that could owned totally by someone. That would
be like someone owning the LAB standard. Or the color wheel. Really
strange...But what is the chances of incorporating something like
Ishare into PFP for light spot color work? not necessary munsell data
but to HSB or something that could be used for light color design to
integrate spot color measurements on paint to different color design
arangements. This could be saved as a .aco photoshop swatch file that
will also open in painter.

What I am doing measuring paint is building my own mixing formulas for
bulk industrial house paint pigments from the home depot based on the
color wheel. This is for my background painting. That is why I am
converting to munsell. This is what some photographers do during the
slow months that cant afford to go to Florida yet.


Randy

--- In colorvision_group@yahoogroups.com, CDTobie@... wrote:
>
> 
> In a message dated 2/26/07 1:35:45 PM, rlphoto@... writes:
> 
> 
> > Anyway I was wondering, if there was a better way to get munsell from
> > the LAB numbers that PFP puts out.
> > 
> > Now Xrite makes a free program that lets you use there spectro for
> > doing spot color work called Ishare that allows the spectro to be used
> > for some basic spot color work. It would be nice if colorvision would
> > do something similar in an upgrade or something.
> > 
> This is a pretty unusual spot-color system (based on Munsell color
chips, of 
> course), and you are the first customer to aske for Munsell numbers.
Munsell 
> is owned by Gretag, which is now owned by X-Rite, so its a color
system owned 
> by the competition... so I would not expect to see us offering
Munsell values. 
> Sorry! The Gretag website includes a free utility for converting
Munsell 
> values, which is Windows only, and listed as supporting Windows fro
95 to XP. It 

> claims to be outdated demoware when I install it under Vista....
> 
> C. David Tobie
> Product Technology Manager
> ColorVision Business Unit
> Datacolor Inc.
> CDTobie@...
> www.colorvision.com
> 
> 
> **************************************
>  AOL now offers free 
> email to everyone.  Find out more about what's free from AOL at 
> http://www.aol.com.
>

Thanks CD, I know this is kind of off topic, but you are the only
person I know that is knowledgeable enough, and at the same time kind
enough to answer these questions for me. So...is there a better way to
chart pigments on a colorwheel without using munsell? The datacolor
spectro works very well measuring the paint. Getting it into Munsell
is quite a pain. I thought about using HSV in photoshop but figured
out the HSV is setup for additive color and is not linear. The problem
with munsell is that it is set up in 10 segments at least with the
xrite converter version, and 12 segments that correspond with the 12
hues would work better. I hear that there is a 12 segment munsell
scale, but searching in google dosent get anything that is usefull,
let alone any kind of converter. Right now I have to use 3 different
programs to get from lab to munsell. If you where trying to get paint
values charted on a wheel with just a datacolor spectro, and limited
resources how would you do it?

Randy Laskody

--- In colorvision_group@yahoogroups.com, CDTobie@... wrote:
>
> 
> In a message dated 2/26/07 3:43:54 PM, rlphoto@... writes:
> 
> 
> > Yes I was aware that xrite owns munsell stuff, but..I was not aware
> > that a standard like that could owned totally by someone. That would
> > be like someone owning the LAB standard.
> > 
> 
> No different than Pantone owning their own proprietary color patch 
> definitions. As for "standards" did you know that Adobe controls the
TIFF format? They 
> aquired it in the process of purchasing PageMaker from Aldus... and
for years 
> Adobe controlled digital fonts, by owning PostScript. Apple and
Microsoft had 
> to band together and define TrueType to avoid having the high cost of 
> PostScript fonts limit the lower end markets. Oh, and were you aware
that there is a 
> patent on using L* (yes, from the Lab standard) for monitor
calibration? <G>

> 
> C. David Tobie
> Product Technology Manager
> ColorVision Business Unit
> Datacolor Inc.
> CDTobie@...
> www.colorvision.com
> 
> 
> **************************************
>  AOL now offers free 
> email to everyone.  Find out more about what's free from AOL at 
> http://www.aol.com.
>

Thanks CD, I managed to find on the web the lab values of all the
munsell chips from the RIT site. There are 6 vertical collums of data.
HVC XyY. Can I just copy and paste into excel? It would take me a year
to enter this data by hand. 

--- In colorvision_group@yahoogroups.com, CDTobie@... wrote:
>
> 
> In a message dated 2/27/07 12:59:51 PM, rlphoto@... writes:
> 
> If you where trying to get paint
> > values charted on a wheel with just a datacolor spectro, and limited
> > resources how would you do it?
> > 
> I would measure all my Munsel chips with the DC1005, and paste that 
> measurement string into an Excel sheet defined to find the closest
match to any of them 
> and use that for my matching searches. That would reduce your
process to two 
> applications at least, and normalize your values to Lab...
> 
> C. David Tobie
> Product Technology Manager
> ColorVision Business Unit
> Datacolor Inc.
> CDTobie@...
> www.colorvision.com
> > 
> 
> 
> **************************************
>  AOL now offers free email to 
> everyone.  Find out more about what's free from AOL at
http://www.aol.com.
>

I kinda figured that it would get much more complex the further I
went. A little much for the average garage color scientist. any way I
figured out how to imput lab values directly into the xrite converter
so this saves a few steps. This will hold me for a while till
colorvision gets there own munsell converter in the new spot color add
on for printfix pro.:o)))

Thanks!

--- In colorvision_group@yahoogroups.com, CDTobie@... wrote:
>
> 
> In a message dated 2/27/07 2:34:08 PM, rlphoto@... writes:
> 
> 
> > Thanks CD, I managed to find on the web the lab values of all the
> > munsell chips from the RIT site. There are 6 vertical collums of data.
> > HVC XyY. Can I just copy and paste into excel? It would take me a year
> > to enter this data by hand.
> > 
> Sure, but you need to have certain Excel (and math) skills... and
the values 
> you have are XyY (or more likely xyY), which can be converted to Lab
from 
> there, but are not automatically in Lab. So you would need to create
an xyY (or 
> whatever) to Lab formula, drag it down to all rows, and it would
spit out three 
> more columns, of Lab values for each chip. My theory was that you
would just 
> measure your chips in order, and it would give them real, measured,
Lab values, 
> rather than theoretical, batch values.
> 
> And you aren't done there... you need to create a search function
that will 
> find the closest match in all three columns (Lab) for your input
value. Its 
> easy to search one column for the closest single value, but its more
complex to 
> search three of a calculated least difference. It would be simplest
to subtract 
> your values L, a, and b compents from each, and add the absolute
value of the 
> three results together, and search for the smallest total: but
calculating 
> the DeltaE94 for each from your input value, and finding the
smallest DeltaE94 

> would be the best method. Sorry you started this yet? <G>
> 
> C. David Tobie
> Product Technology Manager
> ColorVision Business Unit
> Datacolor Inc.
> CDTobie@...
> www.colorvision.com
> 
> 
> 
> **************************************
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