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epson "ABW" profiles?

epson "ABW" profiles?

2008-01-29 by gochatunbdotca

I've just purchased an Epson 4880. At least for now I will stick with Epson inks.

It has Black, Light Black and Light-Light Black cartridges ("3K" system) for printing black and 
white images.

Using the 3K inks is controlled in the Epson driver, and called "Advanced Black and White". It 
allows considerable adjustment, but this is *within the driver itself*.

My understanding is that to use ABW / 3K printing you "let printer control color" (by means of 
the ABW adjustments). Thus, there seems to be no possibility for using "color profiles" via 
Printfix Pro to tweak the 3K black and white printing.

Is this correct?  If so, is there any way that I can use my spectro-photometer (is that what it's 
called?) to tweak the ABW setting for papers that the printer does *not* recognize?

Myron

Re: [colorvision_group] epson "ABW" profiles?

2008-01-29 by David Miller

On Jan 29, 2008, at 8:11 AM, gochatunbdotca wrote:

> I've just purchased an Epson 4880. At least for now I will stick  
> with Epson inks.
>
> It has Black, Light Black and Light-Light Black cartridges ("3K"  
> system) for printing black and
> white images.
>
> Using the 3K inks is controlled in the Epson driver, and called  
> "Advanced Black and White". It
> allows considerable adjustment, but this is *within the driver  
> itself*.
>
>
Correct; no softproofing; and everything done within the driver.  
That's why we provide our
alternative method.
> My understanding is that to use ABW / 3K printing you "let printer  
> control color" (by means of
> the ABW adjustments). Thus, there seems to be no possibility for  
> using "color profiles" via
> Printfix Pro to tweak the 3K black and white printing.
>
>
Not when you're printing through Advanced B&W mode.
> Is this correct? If so, is there any way that I can use my spectro- 
> photometer (is that what it's
> called?) to tweak the ABW setting for papers that the printer does  
> *not* recognize?
>
>

Using our method: you'll print a color target; AND an Extended Grays  
target; measure both,
separately; then build a "super" RGB profile (with both measurement  
files selected in the UI)
that will give you more accurate neutrals and near-neutrals when you  
print through that
profile.

You'll be using all of your inks when you do so, using the "normal"  
printing mode of the Epson
driver for both the targets and printing via the profile afterwards.

Because you get an RGB profile from this,  you can softproof through  
it in Photoshop (unlike
Advanced B&W mode)

You can use the Advanced sliders in Spyder3Print (get it if you  
haven't already done so, it's
a free upgrade download) to apply tints and crosstints when you're  
building the profile.

Here are notes on exactly how to do it (I've posted these here several  
times in the past):

******

First, print one of the color targets (either 225 or 729 patches; I'd  
suggest
starting with 225, to keep things simple, then try again with 729  
later if you
like).

Then print the Extended Grays target. If you do the 225 colors and the  
238
extended grays, you'll have two sheets of letter size targets ready to  
measure.

It's extremely important that you print both of these on the same  
paper, using
the same driver settings.

Then, on the Read Patches screen, measure each one of them. Before you  
step
forward into that screen, you need to set "which" kind of target  
you're going
to be measuring on the Select Target screen. So: Select Target: 225;  
click
Next; Save Measurements To...; then Read Patches. Step back to Select  
Target:
Extended Grays; click Next; Save Measurements To...; Read Patches  
again. Now
you have measurements saved for colors, and for grays.

Visually check them, too, for accuracy. Open up the Target window for  
each,
switch to Measured mode so you can see only the measured colors, drag  
on the
lower right corner to make the window even larger, then visually  
compare to
your target print. You should see a reasonably close match. Look for  
"bad"
measurements, which (if they exist) will typically be too-light  
patches that
stand out among their neighbors in the darker regions; they should be  
easy
to spot. Remeasure any bad ones (arrow keys to locate the patch, then  
measure
again).

Now that you've got these, you can Build.

The Extended Grays are used as a supplement to the colors; but you  
don't build
a profile straight from them; that why if you select them in the  
measurement
list, you can't step forward to the Build screen. (We have to let them  
show
UP in that popup, though, because you need a way to measure and  
preview and
possibly remeasure them).

Instead, this is what you do:

- Select your COLOR measurements in the main popup on the Read Patches  
screen.

- Once you do this, another checkbox and popup (smaller) will show up  
below
that, and your Extended Grays measurements will be in THAT popup. (All
Extended Grays measurements that are in your Data:PRO folder will show  
up in
this supplementary popup below the main popup). Use that smaller popup  
to
select "which" extended grays measurements you want to use; and then  
CHECK
the checkbox if you want them to actually be USED when you build the  
profile.
(If the checkbox isn't checked, then when you build, only the color  
measurements
will be used when you build the profile).

- To summarize: to build a profile with Extended Grays used as part of  
the
profiling process:

- Measure a color target and a grays target

- Select the color target in the main popup

- Select the extended grays target in the supplementary popup that  
appears
below it; and also CHECK the "Use extended grays" checkbox.



David Miller
Senior Software Developer, Digital Color Solutions
Datacolor

Re: [colorvision_group] epson "ABW" profiles?

2008-01-29 by CDTobie@aol.com


In a message dated 1/29/08 9:31:12 AM, goch@... writes:



My understanding is that to use ABW / 3K printing you "let printer control color" (by means of
the ABW adjustments). Thus, there seems to be no possibility for using "color profiles" via
Printfix Pro to tweak the 3K black and white printing.

You have two choices for gallery quality B&W or tinted B&W prints with Espon "two gray ink" printers. The first is to use the extended grays target in addition to a color target, build a color profile, and print through that profile and the color mode, to get great B&W output (and great color output from the same workflow and the same profile).

The second method is to print the 225 patch target (and later, the extended grays as well, if you wish) through the AWB mode, and build a gray linearization profile. This type of profile is not as flexible as a full color profile, and should only be used with the EXACT same AWB settings as the target(s) were printed through. It will not allow tint or neutrality adjustment (that is being left to AWB, and needs to be determined BEFORE building your profile), but will create smooth, accurate linearity in your B&W prints. It will also provide a profile for softproof previewing in Photoshop, to do your final image adjustments.

Please keep in mind that gray mode profiles such as this take much longer to calculate than color profiles. When the "build profile" step is reached, leave your computer, have a cup of coffee, and don't panic if its still working when you get back. Do not assume it has frozen, just let it run its course and it should produce the profile you are looking for.

C. David Tobie
International Product Technology Manager
Digital Imaging & Home Theater
Datacolor
CDTobie@...
www.datacolor.com/Spyder3



**************
Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape.
http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489

Re: [colorvision_group] epson "ABW" profiles?

2008-01-29 by CDTobie@aol.com


In a message dated 1/29/08 12:42:54 PM, tom.husband@... writes:


Can't you also use QTR Create ICC and just measure the 21 step grayscale or RGB target using the Colorvision Spectro?

Yes, you could, but that requires a rather obtuse piece of third party software. I was noting the methods available directly from our products...

C. David Tobie
International Product Technology Manager
Digital Imaging & Home Theater
Datacolor
CDTobie@datacolor.com
www.datacolor.com/Spyder3



**************
Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape.
http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489

Problem printing neutral B&W

2008-02-01 by Tom Moore

This thread prompted me to inquire about something I'm having a problem
with. I have been trying to print a tinted B%W image and I'm not happy with
the results. The highlights have a pinkish tone that shouldn't be there. The
profile I'm using was created with the regular 225 patch and the Extended
Grays target.

 

To figure out what's going on I tried printing a neutral 21 step wedge. The
steps from 30% down to 5% all have a slight pink (sort of a bluish  magenta)
hue. I tried printing the same step wedge with my original profile (made
without the extended grays) and the pink hue is also there but also extends
up into the mid tones to about 60% black.

 

The other thing I've noticed is that the gray ramp (plot of L* against
%black) is not very linear, particularly with the profile made with the
Extended Grays target. In fact, the ramp produced by my original profile
(made without the Extended Grays) is more linear.

 

So my question is: has anyone made a profile that has been able to produce
good neutral black and white images? If so, which targets did you use to
make the profile? Before I print and measure the 729 patch plus extended
grays over again, I thought I'd check to see if it's been done successfully.


 

The other question I have pertains to the quote from Mr. Tobie below. When I
created the profile with the extended grays target, the time taken to
calculate the profile was virtually identical to the time required to
produce the profile without the extended grays. In both cases it took 1 or 2
seconds, nowhere near enough time to have a coffee. Also the 2 profiles are
the same size (possibly that could be normal). So, although the "Extended
Grays" profile was an improvement, I'm wondering if I missed something in
its creation.

 

Any suggestions? Am I expecting too much from S3Print?

 

Tom Moore

 

  _____  
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: colorvision_group@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:colorvision_group@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of CDTobie@...



.


Please keep in mind that gray mode profiles such as this take much longer to
calculate than color profiles. When the "build profile" step is reached,
leave your computer, have a cup of coffee, and don't panic if its still
working when you get back. Do not assume it has frozen, just let it run its
course and it should produce the profile you are looking for.



.

Re: Problem printing neutral B&W

2008-02-01 by Keith R.

--- In colorvision_group@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Moore" 
<rtmlists8888@...> wrote:
> The other question I have pertains to the quote from Mr. Tobie 
below. When I
> created the profile with the extended grays target, the time taken 
to
> calculate the profile was virtually identical to the time required 
to
> produce the profile without the extended grays. In both cases it 
took 1 or 2
> seconds, nowhere near enough time to have a coffee. Also the 2 
profiles are
> the same size (possibly that could be normal). So, although 
the "Extended
> Grays" profile was an improvement, I'm wondering if I missed 
something in
> its creation.
> 
>  
> 
> Any suggestions? Am I expecting too much from S3Print?
> 
>  
> 
> Tom Moore

I believe that Mr. Tobie was refering to creating the profile THRU 
THE ABW setting from the Epson print driver, which is NOT the normal 
way of creating the profile.

Re: [colorvision_group] Problem printing neutral B&W

2008-02-04 by CDTobie@aol.com


In a message dated 2/1/08 1:01:12 AM, rtmlists8888@... writes:


So my question is: has anyone made a profile that has been able to produce good neutral black and white images?


Many. On a good printer/paper/ink combination, the entire ramp is less than one a*/b* point from zero.
Since you never mention what printer, inks, or media you are using, its difficult to respond with suggestions.

>>
When I created the profile with the extended grays target, the time taken to calculate the profile was virtually identical to the time required to produce the profile without the extended grays.

That would be correct. Its only with a custom gray inkset that the software takes longer to calculate the "color" gamut, given that there isn't really one...

C. David Tobie
WW Product Technology Manager
Digital Imaging & Home Theater
Datacolor
CDTobie@...
www.datacolor.com/Spyder3



**************
Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music.
(http://music.aol.com/grammys/pictures/never-won-a-grammy?NCID=aolcmp00300000002548)

Re: [colorvision_group] Problem printing neutral B&W

2008-02-04 by CDTobie@aol.com


In a message dated 2/4/08 11:58:55 AM, CDTobie@... writes:


>>When I created the profile with the extended grays target, the time taken to calculate the profile was virtually identical to the time required to produce the profile without the extended grays.

That would be correct. Its only with a custom gray inkset that the software takes longer to calculate the "color" gamut, given that there isn't really one...



I should add that profiling printers in their Grayscale mode effectively makes them into custom gray inkset printers, and would cause slow profile creation times as well.

C. David Tobie
WW Product Technology Manager
Digital Imaging & Home Theater
Datacolor
CDTobie@datacolor.com
www.datacolor.com/Spyder3



**************
Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music.
(http://music.aol.com/grammys/pictures/never-won-a-grammy?NCID=aolcmp00300000002548)

RE: [colorvision_group] Problem printing neutral B&W

2008-02-04 by Tom Moore

Sorry, I hate it when people ask questions and don't give enough info to
answer them.

 

I'm using an Epson 2200 with MIS Pro color inks on Premier Fine Art 270
paper. I know I had previously asked a question about mottling on this
paper. That now seems to be the result of bad (or mis-labelled) batch of the
paper. I have had no problems with making a color profile for this paper
with my recent box. The problem I'm having now is with achieving neutral
grays in the highlights with the profile I created with the Extended Grays
target. I've included a plot of my measurements of a 21 step wedge (although
I'm not sure Yahoo will let me post it to the list). From the chart you can
see that the a* and b* are more or less within 1 point of neutral (right Y
axis) down to about 40%K and then start to separate. Visually, the steps
from 30% down to 5% are the most noticeably pinkish blue.

 

A similar plot using the profile made without the extended grays shows a
wider variation of a*and b* from neutral and thus the benefit of using the
extended grays. However, the extended grays profile does not have as linear
plot of L*

 

Tom Moore

 



 

 

  _____  
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: colorvision_group@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:colorvision_group@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of CDTobie@...
Sent: Monday, February 04, 2008 11:58 AM
To: colorvision_group@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [colorvision_group] Problem printing neutral B&W

 


In a message dated 2/1/08 1:01:12 AM, rtmlists8888@... writes:





So my question is: has anyone made a profile that has been able to produce
good neutral black and white images?



Many. On a good printer/paper/ink combination, the entire ramp is less than
one a*/b* point from zero. Since you never mention what printer, inks, or
media you are using, its difficult to respond with suggestions.

Re: [colorvision_group] Problem printing neutral B&W

2008-02-04 by CDTobie@aol.com


In a message dated 2/4/08 2:45:30 PM, rtmlists8888@... writes:



Sorry, I hate it when people ask questions and don’t give enough info to answer them.

Yup, a daily occurance for me...

I’m using an Epson 2200 with MIS Pro color inks on Premier Fine Art 270 paper

Okay. The 2200 is nice an neutral in the dark zone because it uses gray ink to print there. Its off in the light zone because it mixes all light grays using light Cyan, light Magenta, and Yellow inks. MIS color inks make this a bit worse, actually. The fix for this is: to buy a 2400. Short of that, every light source is going to give you differing neutrality results. You may well have an issue beyond those noted here, but you are not going to get satisfying, consistantly neutral results from a 2200 and color inks.

C. David Tobie
WW Product Technology Manager
Digital Imaging & Home Theater
Datacolor
CDTobie@...
www.datacolor.com/Spyder3



**************
Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music.
(http://music.aol.com/grammys/pictures/never-won-a-grammy?NCID=aolcmp00300000002548)

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