Datacolor User to User Support Group.

i recently tried to build a profile out of the fuji frontier f340.
below is a narration of the steps i did.

1. calibrate monitor using spyder2pro.  i successfully achieved a 0.20
difference and my RGB columns all aligned.
2. installed printfix.  
3. since the frontier machine has an interface of itself, i cannot
print the target prints from the PFP interface, i extracted the target
prints from c:\program files\colorvision\printfix pro\targets folder.
4. measured the color charts using the spectro.
5. opened a file (photo) in photoshop, converted the profile to the
profile i created from the fuji frontier machine and printed it.
6. since my color chart was printed in glossy paper, i also printed my
test image in glossy paper as well.  my problem is that the colors are
totally off.  the print came out reddish while the image viewed on
monitor is more on the yellow side.  it is very noticeable.

here are my questions:

1. how come my print and file viewed on the monitor are off?

2. i noticed that the target prints bundled with the PFP is set at
72dpi 12"x10", if i print this out from the frontier at 8"x10", the
color chart comes out soft and blurred since the original resolution
is at 72dpi only and the frontier prints at 300dpi.  is this a big
concern?  i mean, does reading soft, blurred color patches wrong? 
should i be reading sharp color patches to make it accurate?  if so,
how can i achieve this since the bundled target prints are at 72dpi
and interpolation doesn't help that much?

is there any target prints set at 8"x10" at 300dpi that is available
for download?

3. i noticed that the target prints do not have an embedded profile
when i opened it in photoshop.  should i print the target file without
assigning a profile?  

i hope you guys can help me with this.  has anyone every calibrated a
fuji frontier using PFP?

thanks a lot!

cheers!  :)
david

--- In colorvision_group@yahoogroups.com, "hanson102" <hanson102@...>
wrote:

> 3. i noticed that the target prints do not have an embedded profile
> when i opened it in photoshop.  should i print the target file without
> assigning a profile?  

Yes you definately want to print the target prints without a profile!
 These need to be sent to the printer / device with the raw color
"values" unmodified.  Applying a profile and then trying to create a
profile is akin to sending a letter to your mom but translating to
Norwegian to Mandrian and then back to English.  Your message may
become altered in translation.

Hope that helps

Tom

I tried doing the whole procedure again today. 

1. Calibrate monitor with a difference of only 0.20
2. Printed target prints (high quality 225colors) - I resampled the
image to 8"x10", 300 dpi on photoshop (nearest neighbor interpolation)
without assigning a profile.
3. Used FUJI FRONTIER INTERFACE to print the target print.
4. Used spectro and created a profile from the target print.
5. Opened 3 photo images and assigned all 3 images with the created
profile
6. Printed all 3 photos via frontier interface

When I compared the 3 images on the images on screen, the on screen
images still was as reddish as before.

QUESTIONS:

1. Why is this so?  I doubt I have done anything wrong here, which
makes me wonder why both image on monitor and print doesn't match at all.

2. This is so true even when i was reading the color patches with the
spectro.  I noticed that the color read by the spectro doesn't look
the way it should be on the monitor compared to the print.  Is this
just natural?

3. Is there something wrong with how the spectro is reading the colors
which is causing this problem?

4. If my procedure is correct, how can I compensate for the
reddishness of the images on screen?  There is nothing wrong with the
monitor but the image itself when assigned with the created profile
turns reddish compared to print.  

5. Is compensation done when building the profile - adjustment of CMY,
Brightness Contrast Saturation in the Build Profile Setup Window?  Or
is compensation done on the FRONTIER machine?  which is the proper way?

thanks guys!

regards,
david













--- In colorvision_group@yahoogroups.com, CDTobie@... wrote:
>
> 
> In a message dated 4/20/06 4:02:22 AM, hanson102@... writes:
> 
> 
> > 1. how come my print and file viewed on the monitor are off?
> > 
> Color management does not match your monitor to your printer in any
direct 
> way, it just corrects both, and if appropriate standards and
illuminants are 
> used, the result is that both match well, because both are
corrected. Your 
> description of the process sounds correct, but you don't list the
details, and 
> somewhere in those details you probably made a color workflow error
that is causing 
> your problem.
> > 
> > 2. i noticed that the target prints bundled with the PFP is set at
> > 72dpi 12"x10", if i print this out from the frontier at 8"x10", the
> > color chart comes out soft and blurred since the original resolution
> > is at 72dpi only and the frontier prints at 300dpi.  is this a big
> > concern?  i mean, does reading soft, blurred color patches wrong?
> > should i be reading sharp color patches to make it accurate?  if so,
> > how can i achieve this since the bundled target prints are at 72dpi
> > and interpolation doesn't help that much?
> > 
> It does not matter that the files are soft, you are measuring spot
colors, 
> not dealing with photo quality issues. The images can be resized as
desired in 
> Photoshop, and resaved to somewhere other than the targets folder
for use with 
> your Fuji. They are not necessarily 72 dpi at 12x10, thats just how
the Fuji 
> is defining them based on the pixel resolution. Targets are ususally
resampled 
> for resizing using the Nearest Neighbor setting, but again, that
only effects 
> the edges, not the patch color, which is the key here.
> > 
> > is there any target prints set at 8"x10" at 300dpi that is available
> > for download?
> > 
> No, and no need for them, really, they would just be bigger files to 
> download, that would contain the same colors. You can up-rez them
yourself in 
> Photoshop if you want that size.
> > 
> > 3. i noticed that the target prints do not have an embedded profile
> > when i opened it in photoshop.  should i print the target file without
> > assigning a profile? 
> > 
> This is probably where you are getting in trouble. If you don't
assign a 
> profile, and then print them using the No Color Management setting
in Print with 
> Preview, that should do the trick, but if your Fuji driver is not
working 
> properly with those settings, you could try assigning AdobeRGB on
opening, then, 
> using NCM (Same as Source in older versions of Photoshop) when
printing. In 
> either case you need to set the Fuji driver's advanced setttigns to
no color 
> adjustment, or the equivalent.
> > 
> > i hope you guys can help me with this.  has anyone every calibrated a
> > fuji frontier using PFP?
> > 
> > I have, but not directly, there's always been someone else running
the 
> Frontier end of things, so I can't describe the settings from
memory; I just know 

> that operators have no trouble running targets and prints without color 
> management to get good targets and color managed prints.
> 
> C. David Tobie
> Product Technology Manager
> ColorVision Business Division
> DataColor Inc.
> CDTobie@...
> www.colorvision.com
>

--- In colorvision_group@yahoogroups.com, "hanson102" <hanson102@...>
wrote:
>
> I tried doing the whole procedure again today. 
> 
> 1. Calibrate monitor with a difference of only 0.20
> 2. Printed target prints (high quality 225colors) - I resampled the
> image to 8"x10", 300 dpi on photoshop (nearest neighbor interpolation)
> without assigning a profile.
> 3. Used FUJI FRONTIER INTERFACE to print the target print.
> 4. Used spectro and created a profile from the target print.
> 5. Opened 3 photo images and assigned all 3 images with the created
> profile
> 6. Printed all 3 photos via frontier interface

When you say in step three you opened the three photo images and
assigned all three images the created profile, do you mean you used a
program such as photoshop and assigned an image profile to them?  If
that is so it may explain a lot.

If it *is* so .. it would explain a lot.

Yours

Tom Trostel

Thank you for your patience with my queries.  Correct me if I'm wrong
but this is how I understand color management and working with Print
Fix Pro Suite:


1. Monitor Profiling:

The purpose of using the Spyder is to be able to calibrate a monitor -
being able to adjust the monitor to its white point (eliminating color
casts), which is why the goal of adjustments is to equalize R, G and
B.  The profile created through using the Spyder is the Monitor Profile.

Should I be calibrating 5 CRT Monitors together to make all 5 Monitors
render the same brightness and white point, I should have a standard
setting that I follow.  Such as:

Display Type: CRT
Gamma: 2.2
White Point: 6500K

Otherwise, if I use different settings for different monitors, then I
won't be able to achieve the standard "look" - brightness and white point.

At the end of the process, each of the 5 Monitors will have its own
unique Monitor Profile.  I understand that Monitor Profiles created is
intended for the Monitor it was calibrated from.  Should I assign
Monitor Profile of Monitor A to B, there is a high probability that
Monitor A and B won't render the same look because no two Monitors
functions the same due to wear and tear and other factors.

Using the Spyder doesn't guarantee that all Monitors can be calibrated
because some can be so worn out being unable to achieve the standard
needed.

2. Monitor Profiling in our Frontier Lab:

I believe that I don't have a problem with how our monitor looks.  I
don't see any color casts that would make a photograph look reddish or
yellowish or to any effect.  Simply put, if view a large white patch
on the screen, it literally looks white - not yellowish white, reddish
white, greenish white nor bluish white.  I believe that my problem
lies more on the Profiling Process of the Frontier.






3. Printer Profiling:

The goal is to be able to present an image in the monitor the way it
will be rendered on print.  Since there are different factors that
affect color rendition on print, we should create Printer Profiles
according to combination of Printer Type, Ink and Paper.

If for example, I have 2 paper types (Matte and Glossy) coming from 1
set of Machine+Ink (Frontier), then I should create 2 different profiles. 

- Frontier-Matte-042606.icc
- Frontier-Glossy-042606.icc

The Spectro is the tool to use to be able to measure color values
created by a printer.





4. Color Profiles:

Image files contain a color profile.  An image taken by a Digital
Camera with sRGB as its assigned profile, embeds sRGB profile into the
image file.  Should we need to edit an image using a different
profile, we have to convert the embedded sRGB profile to the required
profile - ex. Frontier-Matte-042606.icc.

If I view one image file (with sRGB profile) on 5 of my Monitors, it
should all look the same.  If I assign 1 image file among the 5
separate Monitors&Computers, with a different profile
(Frontier-Matte-042606.icc), that image file will look different among
the 5 Monitors even if they are all calibrated correctly.

It is also possible for an image not to have an embedded profile as
with the case of the Target Prints bundled with the Print Fix Pro. 
This allows us to print the Target Prints without bias from any other
color profile.  The printer will print the Target Prints as how it
interprets it.




5. Converting Color Profiles:

If I am a photographer working on my image of which I intend to print
on Matte Paper on a Frontier Machine, I should have a calibrated
monitor and the Frontier-Matte-042606 Printer Profile from the printer
I will have print done.

Since images from Digital Cameras are assigned either sRGB or
AdobeRGB, my photographs will look different when I view it on
Photoshop against the printed photograph.

Should I want to view the image file as how it will be printed, I
should convert the image file with the Printer Profile -
Frontier-Matte-042606.  This should be the initial step as well should
the image to be printed needs to be enhanced.




6. Viewing Images on the Monitor Against Frontier Print:

After creating Frontier-Matte-042606, i use this profile to determine
how my image in the monitor will look when printed.  This I believe is
the essence of what the Print Fix Pro is capable of doing.  The steps
that I do is simply opening the image file that was captured by the
Digital Camera with sRGB Color Profile in Photoshop and then Convert
the color profile to Frontier-Matte-042606, save the file, then print
through the Fuji Frontier Interface.

My problem is that the colors are off.  It is not because of the
monitor as I believe my monitor is well calibrated.  Image viewed on
the monitor is reddish.  The skin tone is reddish.  If I convert the
color profile of the image back to sRGB or even AdobeRGB, it looks
more natural, closer to skin tone.





Am I missing anything here?  Do I have the correct understanding of
the whole process?  Where do you think the problem is?





Thank you again for your patience.  I appreciate the help a lot.


Regards,
David Hanson