Spence, not sure that program worked. Tracks were in sync in some respects, but needs further review. Sam www.keyboardcollective.com (212) 684-3304 > On Mar 14, 2014, at 2:48 PM, Spencer Chase <lists@...> wrote: > > i wrote a program and sent it to Sam that allows you to shift all channels by any number of ms and leave ones that you select untouched. he did a quick test and it seems like it might work. it only works with files that have a single tempo marked at the beginning. since the events are on different channels (might be a type 0 file so no opportunity to use separate tracks) it takes more than just shifting tracks. the time of each event needs to be shifted by the number of midi ticks required to produce the shift of a chosen time interval. program needs to know the TPQ and the Ms/quarter note so if this changes throughout the file it gets messed up. if anyone wants to use this or a similar program on files that have varying tempi, i have (somewhere) a program that converts multiple tempi to a single tempo by changing note timing. > > Sam will be reporting, at some point, if the program really works for his needs. > >> On 3/14/2014 9:47 AM, Bill Brandom wrote: >> >> Sam, >> >> There probably is some latency. Try moving the piano track forwards and backwards until you find that latency value. Then, continue using that value instead of the 500ms. >> >> Bill >> >> On Mar 14, 2014, at 8:03 AM, Skanter123 <skanter123@...> wrote: >> >> >>> 1) In your computer sequence, do not offset the virtual synth tracks by 500ms. >>> >>> (2) Set up your virtual synth to receive MIDI data from an external source. >>> >>> (3) On your Mark II, set the PIANO RECEIVE channel to something that matches the piano tracks in your sequencer. (The simplest solution is to set the Piano to receive on channel 1 and set the piano tracks in the sequencer to send on channel 1.) >>> >>> (4) On your Mark II, set MIDI OUT to DELAY OUT. >>> >>> (5) On your Mark II, in the PIANO PART are under the ENSEMBLE heading, set PIANO PART MIDI OUT=OFF. >>> >>> In this configuration, the Disklavier will receive data from your computer and do two things: >>> >>> (a) Play the piano tracks on the piano. >>> >>> (b) Delay the other tracks by 500ms and then send them to your virtual synth. >>> >>> Be sure that your sequencer is not set to echo back any MIDI data that it receives. >> >> >> >> George, i tried your configuration, but things still did not sync up. Piano was behind bass and drums, maybe less than 500ms. >> >> Perhaps there is some latency in the virtual synth on my computer? >> >> Sam >> www.keyboardcollective.com >> (212) 684-3304 >> >> >> >> >> >> On Mar 12, 2014, at 8:24 AM, George Frederick Litterst <PianoBench@...> wrote: >> >>> >>> Good morning, everyone. >>> >>> >>> Sam, as I understand it, the Mark II-to-Mark IIXG upgrade kit included a new control unit of a different size than the original, a couple of circuit boards, and a new connecting cable. I don't recall the price, but I would not be surprised if it was similarly priced to the DKC-850 because it included a new control unit. In the case of a Mark II upright, it also included a replacement piece of metal for that area of the piano that holds the built-in Mark II controller. >>> >>> I don't believe that these complete kits are still available in the US. However, I have heard that the circuit boards may still be available, thus enabling an upgrade to a Mark IIXG minus the control unit. At that stage, the piano could receive the DKC-850 as a replacement control unit. >>> >>> As for your playback issue: If I understand it correctly, you want to play multitrack sequences from your computer an d enjoy playback that includes the Disklavier for the piano track(s) and a virtual synth (running on the computer) for the other tracks. Correct? If so, try the following: >>> >>> (1) In your computer sequence, do not offset the virtual synth tracks by 500ms. >>> >>> (2) Set up your virtual synth to receive MIDI data from an external source. >>> >>> (3) On your Mark II, set the PIANO RECEIVE channel to something that matches the piano tracks in your sequencer. (The simplest solution is to set the Piano to receive on channel 1 and set the piano tracks in the sequencer to send on channel 1.) >>> >>> (4) On your Mark II, set MIDI OUT to DELAY OUT. >>> >>> (5) On your Mark II, in the PIANO PART are under the ENSEMBLE heading, set PIANO PART MIDI OUT=OFF. >>> >>> In this configuration, the Disklavier will receive data from your computer and do two things: >>> >>> (a) Play the piano tracks on the piano. >>> >>> (b) Delay the other tracks by 500ms and then send them to your virtual synth. >>> >>> Be sure that your sequencer is not set to echo back any MIDI data that it receives. >>> >>> Regards, >>> PianoBench >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> On Mar 11, 2014, at 8:48 PM, Sam Kanter wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> George, thanks for the excellent article on the history of the disklavier - very informative. I recommend that everyone hear reads it - much better than the Wikipedia article. >>>> >>>> I was particularly interested to the Mark II to Mark II XG upgrade you mentioned. I wonder if there is still any possibility of that being available, and significantly less expensive than the DKC-850? At this point I cannot see a justification for upgrading to the DKC-850 with the limited improvement it would provide with the Mk II DKV I have, especially since I use it with a computer, not floppy. In general my Mark II unit performs beautifully, but always a few bugs and glitches to iron out. Still trying to sync MIDI playback with a virtual synth in my computer, difficult as I have to delay each MID sequence by 500ms. I do have a Yamaha MU-50, might be easier setting that up. >>>> >>>> I will have to do some testing to see how much compression my piano is recording. I suppose a good test would be doing a record playback test with a MIDI monitor. I assume I could fix some of the compression using one of Spence's volume utilities? >>>> >>>> Thanks for your help... >>>> >>>> Sam Kanter >>>> www.keyboardcollective.com >>>> (212) 684-3304 >>>> >>>> >>>>> On Tue, Mar 11, 2014 at 4:40 PM, George Frederick Litterst <PianoBench@...> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Good afternoon, everyone. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Sam, the Mark II was a big step up from the earlier instruments. However, there is some compression of the dynamic range on playback. You can easily do a recording and compare the playback. >>>>> >>>>> The first Disklavier that captured a huge range was the Mark IIXG PRO. >>>>> >>>>> For anyone who is interested in the history of the Disklavier, you might enjoy this article that I wrote for the Disklavier Education Network: >>>>> >>>>> http://yamahaden.com/history-of-the-disklavier >>>>> >>>>> For those who are uncertain as to which model they have, you can figure it out from this chart that I created: >>>>> >>>>> http://yamahaden.com/resources-2/item/249-how-to-determine-your-disklavier-model >>>>> >>>>> For those interested in upgrading to a DKC-850, there is another chart here: >>>>> >>>>> http://yamahaden.com/resources-2/item/236-how-to-upgrade-an-older-disklavier >>>>> >>>>> Regards, >>>>> PianoBench >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> On Mar 11, 2014, at 2:06 PM, Sam Kanter wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> George, can I assume my Mark II does not have the compressed volume issues of the earlier models? >>>>>> >>>>>> Sam >>>>>> www.keyboardcollective.com >>>>>> (212) 684-3304 >>>>>> >>>>>> *(Sent from phone - please excuse brevity and typos.) >>>>>> >>>>>> On Mar 11, 2014, at 12:39 PM, George Frederick Litterst <PianoBench@...> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Good afternoon, everyone. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Steno Jazz, here is a more complete explanation of several distinct issues that affect your MX100A (and similarly, other early model Disklaviers): >>>>>>> >>>>>>> MIDI Out >>>>>>> The choices are Keyboard Out and Delay Out: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Keyboard Out sends out MIDI data that you play on the keys yourself. The Delay Out setting causes MIDI data that is being played from floppy disk to be sent out. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> MIDI In >>>>>>> There are two MIDI In settings: Delay In and Real Time. You should almost always use Delay In. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The basic issue is this: When you send MIDI data over a MIDI cable (such as from a computer to your piano), you expect the tone generator that received the data to respond immediately. In the case of a digital piano, you'll hear the MIDI data instantly. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The Disklavier, however, is a mechanical device. If it is set to Real Time response, it will respond to incoming MIDI data by immediately starting to move the keys. However, you will not hear the notes instantly because it takes time for the keys to set the hammers in motion and for the hammers to strike the strings. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> How much delay will there be between the time that the Disklavier starts to move a key and the moment when you hear the hammer hit the string? The answer depends upon how loud the note is. Loud notes are produced by hammers moving relatively fast whereas soft notes are produced by hammers moving relatively slowly. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> In order to have a good listening experience, you want to hear the hammers impact the strings with correct relative timing. If your Disklavier is set to Real Time input, you will experience sloppy timing. (I hasten to add that this Real Time setting only affects playback from an external source, not playback from the floppy drive.) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> To compensate for this mechanical issue, the Disklavier engineers built in a 1/2 second (500ms) delay option for playback of external MIDI data. This so-called Delay In option results in the incoming MIDI data being buffered long enough for the Disklavier to figure out when to start moving each key so that every hammer strikes the strings with accurate relative timing. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> There is another oddity about Real Time input. If the Disklavier receives rapidly repeated notes, such as trills and tremolos, some note-off messages may come in before the affected keys have finished their complete down-stroke. The result can be an interruption in the key movement that sends the hammer toward the string. Some hammers may strike more slowly (and therefore later than they should and at a softer volume) and some hammers may never reach the strings at all, resulting in dropped notes. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Phantom Notes During Playback >>>>>>> Regardles s as to whether playback is from the floppy drive or an external source, the early model Disklaviers played back with a somewhat compressed dynamic range. Chords that were originally thunderous would play back somewhat more softly and very quiet notes would play back more loudly. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Given the limitations of those early playback systems and the likelihood that many Disklavier owners would not have their instruments regulated or calibrated regularly, the Disklavier engineers appear to have made a design decision to insure that soft notes would not drop out on playback by raising their volume to a minimum threshold, somewhere around MIDI velocity 35 for MX100A&B and MX80 and around MIDI velocity 25 for the Wagon Grand. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The result is that I have seen situations in which a pianist brushed keys during a recording. At the time of the recording, those brushed notes were inaudible, having been masked by the loudness of the surroundin g notes. On playback at a minimum velocity of 25 or 35, those brushed notes became audible. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I hope this explains a few things. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Regards, >>>>>>> PianoBench >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Mar 11, 2014, at 3:21 AM, Steno wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I think i am using it without delay. I never used the midi features too much yet in this piano...is that the difference between "delay" and "kbdout" >>>>>>>> The notes played randomly are played even without anything connected to midi connector . Is it the phenomenon of "brushed notes"? What is the minimum delay i should use without such brushed notes? >>>>>>>> Thanks! >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Il giorno 11/mar/2014, alle ore 03:21, PianoBench@... ha scritto: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Good evening, everyone. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Steno Jazz, are you using your piano with MIDI In set to Delay or Real Time? In general, you should use the former. In Real Time mode, any Disklavier can drop notes if the note-off messages come in before the mechanical action has completed the keystroke that was initiated by the note-on message. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> As far as random notes are concerned, are we talking about pieces that you have recorded with the instrument? The earlier Disklaviers played back very soft notes with an effective minimum velocity of about 35. This means that if you brushed a key and recorded a note that was inaudible or barely audible, it would become quite audible on playback. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Regards, >>>>>>>>> PianoBench >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Mar 10, 2014, at 8:04 PM, steno jazz <stenojazz@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> < blockquote type="c ite"> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Hello Adrian Thomas Music Service, >>>>>>>>> thanks for your replies. Is there such ROM upgrade for mx100a too (fixing problems with midi)? I have some problems when i am connecting my mx100a to external midi devices...sometimes some notes are lost and sometimes there are keys of piano that randomly play a note. If there is such ROM upgrade, do you know the part number of it? Thanks! >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> About adapting disklavier mark3 module to mx100a it may be great but i guess it will require a lot of time to understand the signals (even with the service manuals). >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Thanks! >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> 2014-03-11 0:53 GMT+01:00 <mangez@...>: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> There was a ROM update which dealt with the piano sound dropping out when connected to an external device via MIDI. If you have the old version (V1.20d), you can get a replacement ROM from Yamaha: Part No. XH260F00 (IC ROM V1.4f) >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Adrian Thomas Music Services >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Mar 8 2014, George Frederick Litterst wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Good evening, everyone. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Ed, I am a consultan t to Yamaha and head up the Disklavier Education Network (DEN) initiative. We have a resources page on the new DEN website that has PDF versions of all of the Disklavier user manuals: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> http://yamahaden.com/resources-2/item/280-mx80-series-manual >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Locate the MX80 series manual and that page and then proceed to page 31. That page shows the information that I mentioned. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I have never owned an MX80 nor used one extensively. So, my recollection of these kinds of subtleties is a bit dim. I do have a vague recollection that there was a ROM update for the unit that made a subtle change to the MIDI Output feature. Perhaps that explains the difference between the manual and your experience with your particular piano. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> This particular manual is a scan of the original. Many of the more recent manuals are actually searchable in a PDF viewer. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Regards, >>>>>>>>>> PianoBench >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Mar 7, 2014, at 7:04 PM, Edward Duke wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > George, >>>>>>>>>> > Re: the MX80. >>>>>>>>>> > Thanks for your feedback. >>>>>>>>>> > Perhaps we are not discussing the same situations. My MIDI-OUT works fine with and malfunctioning Floppy drive and no Floppy in the drive. I drive the MU-50 Tone Generator. This functioning MIDI-IN and MIDI-OUT capability has essentially negated the need to repair the super expensive Floppy drive from Yamaha. I am however considering the latest Floppy emulator. >>>>>>>>>> > What manual are you referencing? My owner's manual has examples of MIDI OUT and MIDI-IN on page 31 and none of the text you referenced. Neither my MX80 Systems Manual or MX80 Service Manual have 31 pages. >>>>>>>>>> > Regards, >>>>>>>>>> > Ed Duke >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > On Fri, Mar 7, 2014 at 5:50 PM, George Frederick Litterst wrote: >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > Good afternoon, everyone. >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > Ed, its good to know that the MX80 does not need a functioning floppy disk drive with a floppy inserted in order to use the MIDI In function. >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > Accessing the MIDI Out function is another matter, however. According to page 31 of the manual, you have to have a disk in the drive and need to be either in record mode or have a record/pause mode in order to transmit MIDI data. >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > Although I don't know for sure, I sus pect t hat it is this recording function that turns on the key sensors. >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > This need for a working floppy drive is the reason--I think--why the DKC-850 is not officially recommended as an upgrade control unit for the MX80. The only way to connect it would be with MIDI cables. If the MX80 floppy drive were to go bad, you would not be able to record with the DKC-850 or transmit MIDI data to a computer. You would--according to your experience--be ab le to play back song files from either a computer or the DKC-850 if the floppy drive went bad. >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > Regards, >>>>>>>>>> > PianoBench >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > On Mar 7, 2014, at 9:30 AM, Edward Duke wrote: >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> & amp; gt;> Reference item 2 in the previous message. >>>>>>>>>> >> I have an MX80 with non-functioning floppy disk drive and no floppy disk in the drive and the MIDI-IN function works fine. I use the computer to drive the piano. >>>>>>>>>> >> ED >>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> >> On Fri, Mar 7, 2014 at 7:44 AM, George Frederick Litterst wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> >> Good morning, everyone. >>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> >> Answers below: >>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> >> On Mar 6, 2014, at 7:44 PM, wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>> >>> Hello, >>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>> >>> i own a great disklavier mx100a since many years and i just discovered this great forum. >>>>>>>>>> >>> Some questions... >>>>>>>>>> >>> 1) Has anyone experienced any problem connecting both midi in and out with computer ? It seems that my disklavier works properly only if i connect just midi in or midi out...when both are connected to midi interface, some strange messages and not all notes are played correctly. When i disconnect one of the midi connector from the interface, the behaviour is ok. Is it normal? Is my mx100a "broken" or too old? Any firmware update i may request? I know it's not flash - upgradable...it needs eprom replacement or reprogramming, but it's not a problem for me. >>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> >> Please tell us more detail about what is going on when you connect a MIDI interface. If you use only the MIDI In connection, can you successfully play MIDI data from an ext ernal source, such as a computer? >>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> >> If you only use the MIDI Out connection, can you successfully transmit MIDI data to an external source? >>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> >> What is your external source? Are you running a particular MIDI software program? >>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> >> I am suspicious that you have created a MIDI loop in which MIDI data is transmitted from your piano to the MIDI interface at which point one of two things happens: (1) the MIDI interface immediately loops the data back to the pia no or (2) a computer software program loops the MIDI data back to the piano. >>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> >> There are a small number of MIDI interfaces that have a two-position toggle switch on the side. When the switch is in one position, MIDI data that is received from the MIDI In side of the interface is immediately directed to the MIDI Out side. In the other position, MIDI data that is received from the MIDI In side of the interface is transmitted to the computer . >>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> >> Many MIDI software programs have a function called MIDI Echo or MIDI Thru. If that feature is on, any MIDI data that is received by the program is immediately sent to the designated MIDI output device. >>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> >>> 2) Is it possible that the only way of using midi connectors is putting an empty floppy inside the floppy disk drive? No other way to work with midi connectors? >>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> >> It's an odd situation that I don't understand, but the MX100A&B as well as the MX80 series Disklaviers require a working floppy drive with a useable floppy disk inserted in order to work with the MIDI ports. >>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> >>> 3) Is it possible to use a module for disk lavier markIII (also rewiring it if the cabling is not the same) ? I may take one from a friend that upgraded his markIII to dkc-850... i know it may require some extra wiring and cabling but if anyone made it, i would appreciate if he could help me doing that...thanks. >>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> >> Hypothetically, you can use a DKC-850 with your instrument. You would connect it to your piano with MIDI cables. Your old control unit woul d have to be turned on and a floppy disk inserted. Beyond that, you would interact with the DKC-850. >>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> >> This replacement control unit gives you similar user features to an E3 Disklavier. However, it does nothing to change the functionality of the piano's current record and playback system, and when it is connected to a Disklavier with MIDI cables, certain E3 features, such as DisklavierRadio, are note available. >>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> >> I hasten to point out that Yamaha has NOT advertised t he DKC-850 as being compatible with or recommended for the Wagon Grand, MX100A&B, or MX80 series. My personal opinion, however, is that if you are into the concept of "modding" your piano, then this is the control unit to get. >>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> >> I have not used a DKC- 850 with this model of Disklavier. It would be very interesting for someone to replace your Disklavier's floppy drive with an emulator that makes the instrument appear as though it is always ready to transmit and receive MIDI data, and then control it with the DKC-850. >>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> >> I should point out that the DKC-850 has only one set of pair of MIDI ports which would be used to connect to the piano in this case. That means that the MIDI ports would not be available to connect to an external device. However, the DKC-850 also has a USB MIDI feature that enables you to connect to a computer using a simple USB device cable (the same cable that you would use to connect to a USB printer). >>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>> >>> 4) Is there any way to "mod" an mx 100a to improve midi capabilities and is there any "mod" for eprom firmware modifications that anyone did ? (for example avoiding putting a floppy inside or others) >>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> >> I don't know of any mods of this sort, and I don't think that any are necessary. >>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> >> Regards, >>>>>>>>>> >> PianoBench >>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>> >>> Thanks! >>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > > -- > > Best regards, Spencer Chase > 67550-Bell Springs Rd. > Garberville, CA 95542 Postal service only. > Laytonville, CA 95454 UPS only. > Spencer@spencerserolls.com > http://www.spencerserolls.com > (707) 984-8356 > (425) 791-0309 >
Message
Re: [disklavier] mx100a problems and questions/suggestions
2014-03-14 by Skanter123