Disklavier

Hi Guys,

Thanks a lot for those really good insights! I did try listening to the headphone output of the Disklavier in Quiet Mode and I really don't think it is as good as some virtual pianos that I have used in the past. The rendition was disappointing for me.

I was previously using a Nord Stage 2 and before that I was using Synthogy Ivory II Grand Pianos VST virtual pianos channeled through reverb effects in Guitar Rig both loaded on a Muse Receptor and played with a vintageYamaha KX88 MIDI controller. I used the virtual tape deck in Guitar Rig to record the audio directly and those were saved as WAV files on the Receptor. I was quite happy with each of those setups at the time as far as virtual pianos go but of course they aren't at all like the real thing I have now!

I might try running the recorded MIDI files through Synthogy Ivory II just to see how they sound. I hadn't heard about Garritan CFX before. Would you happen to know how it compares to the Yamaha C7 Grand model in Ivory II?

As Ian suggested originally, the best result would probably come from a well miked recording of the actual piano.

Alak.

On Tuesday, October 31, 2017 6:56 PM, "Carol Beigel carol@... [disklavier]" <disklavier@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Thank you, George for that update. Ten years ago I made regular MIDI recordings on my DKVMarkIIXG. I edited them slightly in Logic. I ran them through the Steingraber Uprt Piano font that came from the Native Instruments and burned the resulting wave files to CD. The family agreed it was just like listening to Dad playing the piano.

I suppose these later generation models of Disklaviers have so many more nuances in the recordings that don’t render to wave files like in the old days. Or more likely my Dad did not do very nuanced Piano playing!

Sometimes I think if you want to listen to a good audio file, you should just get an audio file and play it on a stereo. If you want your Piano to play someone else’s midi file then just be content with the way it plays on your Disklavier. There are limits to what we can expect from technology and artistry is in the ears of the beholder.

Carol Beigel

Sent from my iPhone

On Oct 31, 2017, at 8:59 PM, 'George F. Litterst' PianoBench@... [disklavier] <disklavier@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Good evening, everyone.

The biggest issue with virtual pianos and the Disklavier is the mapping of the sampled audio to the MIDI data generated by the Disklavier. The issues boil down to mapping:

—Note-on Velocity to Loudness

As note-on velocities get higher, the sound of the note should get louder.

In the physical world. we would map note-on velocity (on the MIDI scale of 1-127) to actual hammer velocity. In the virtual world, we have to map MIDI note-on velocity to the result of hammer velocity.

Up to this time, I have not found a commercial product that makes any claim that its virtual piano is actually mapped to the note-on velocities generated by the Disklavier.

MakeMusic has a wonderful library of virtual instruments called Garritan. The Garritan CFX Concert Grand is a remarkable, virtual piano, that was sampled at the legendary Abbey Road Studios in London. They sampled Yamaha’s latest concert grand, the CFX.

It is regrettable that they did not sample a DCFX. If they had done so, we would have a precise map of MIDI note-on velocities to the resulting piano sound.

The Garritan CFX Concert Grand is available for Mac and PC. Fortunately, it contains samples from a variety of microphones and mic positions. And, most importantly, it offers a user-adjustable velocity curve.

Unfortunately, the people to whom I have spoken at MakeMusic, have no idea what velocity curve would be appropriate to map Disklavier note-on velocity data. However, by virtue of trial-and-error, you can come up with your own curve.

—Note-on Velocity to Timbre (i.e. brightness)

As notes get louder (as a result of the MIDI note-on velocity getting higher), the timbre of a note changes and gets brighter. The same mapping issue comes into play as what I described above.

—Incremental Sustain Pedal

Most virtual pianos fail when it comes to mapping incremental sustain pedal data. It’s a complex issue.

When you start to depress the sustain pedal on a properly regulated piano, you move the pedal a certain distance before the dampers actually move. This range of pedal movement, therefore, results in “lost motion” as far as the dampers are concerned.

Beyond that point, there is a range of pedal motion that engages the dampers with the dampers maintaining partial contact with the strings as they start to lift.

Once the dampers have cleared the strings, there is an additional range of pedal movement that has no effect on the sound because the dampers are no longer in contact with the strings.

Unfortunately, Yamaha does not publish information about how it maps incremental sustain pedal data (on the usual scale of 0-127) to these three areas of pedal movement. Worse, most virtual pianos have no concept of this physical phenomenon.

In its first incarnation, the Garritan CFX also did not understand increment sustain pedal data. In fact, the Garritan CFX original interpreted any sustain pedal values of 1 or greater as being the same as full depression of the sustain pedal!

In the last year, MakeMusic fortunately updated the Garritan CFX to include an understanding of what it calls “partial pedaling.” It’s a feature that you can turn on or of.

In addition, this virtual piano has an understanding of so-called re-pedaling, which is the effect of (a) playing and releasing a note and (b) immediately depressing the sustain pedal and “catching” (and therefore sustaining) the remaining amount of note resonance. This phenomenon occurs in the real work because notes are not immediately damped out when you release the key. This is also a feature that can be turned on or off in the Garritan CFX.

—Sympathetic String Resonance

This is another tricky area. When you play notes on the piano in the real world, you cause other strings to vibrate, especially those that have no dampers and those whose dampers are partially or fully off the strings.

With the Garritan CFX, you have some control over the amount of string resonance.

—Incremental Soft Pedal Data

I think that most, if not all, virtual pianos interpret the una corda pedal as being fully on or fully off. Obviously, in the physical world, there is a spectrum of timber and volume changes that result from the movement of the una corda pedal between fully-at-rest and fully-depressed. Those changes have to do with how many strings are being struck by each hammer and how hard the surface of the hammer is at the point where contact with the strings is made. Those timbre changes, especially, vary from piano to piano.

I have not made a comprehensive study of virtual pianos, so I make no claim that they all ignore partial depressions of the una corda pedal—but I suspect this to be the case.

In any event, the most important issue is this: At one point, between MIDI values of 1 and 127, does the virtual piano interpret the data to mean that the una corda ;pedal has been fully engaged?

The world of virtual pianos is a fascinating one and one that has practical benefits. I appreciate the ability to make microphone-free recordings, for example.

In general, I think that the most sophisticated digital and “hybrid” pianos do a better job at converting a MIDI piano recording to audio, but the virtual piano world continues to get better.

If you want to get more involved in the virtual world, the Garritan CFX is a good place to start.

Regards,

PianoBench

On Oct 31, 2017, at 6:44 PM, Carol Beigel carol@... [disklavier] <disklavier@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Check out the Grand 3 by Steinberg

Carol

Sent from my iPhone

On Oct 31, 2017, at 9:24 AM, Ian wam@... [disklavier] <disklavier@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Thanks for your input Carol. I have long been indebted to you for the information on your web pages.

As I described to Alak, I also make recordings from midis played thru Sound fonts. Unfortunately, the pianists who record on my piano (and Alak, it seems) don't like them. They feel that sound-font recreations of their playing cannot convey the realism and nuancing that the live play-back (or a recording of that playback made with a fine microphone) can capture. A midi playing sound fonts through a speaker will never sound as realistic as a midi playing a piano directly.

Ian Williamson

On 31/10/2017, at 10:56 PM, Carol Beigel carol@... [disklavier] wrote:

You can take the midi file and run it through a virtual piano on your computer to get the audio file you want. I do this with recordings my father has made on my Disklavier then burn them to CDs to distribute to other family members.

If you use Logic on a Mac computer, there are several pianos to choose from. Years ago I bought the Native Instrument s collection that had 5 Piano types and that is what I use. It might be called Kontakt now.

This is a good way to render a MIDI file to a wave file.

Carol Beigel

Sent from my iPhone

On Oct 31, 2017, at 3:12 AM, Ian wam@... [disklavier] <disklavier@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Alak,

The Enspire is all about high definition midi – that's how it records and that's how it plays best.

It does not make .wav files – only XP (high definition) midis can be recorded by you into its database. Among the 500 or more proprietary tunes loaded into your piano by Yamaha before purchase, some have audio accompaniments in .wav format. These are controlled via the iPad that comes with the piano.

Yamaha's .wav files only contain the accompaniment tracks which play thru the speakers of your piano. These are automatically synchronised to play with separate midi information which drives the solenoids of the hammers and pedals of your piano. On older models of Disklavier, I understand that midi info on USB gets automatically synchronised to play back with CDs in the tray of the 850 controller.

You will never get the type of audio file you want directly out of the Enspire. If you want to capture the full realistic sound of your piano, you will have to make recordings using a microphone.

But what about MusiCast? you ask: To hear your piano playing ;through the piano speakers or a MusiCast system, your iPad controller must be used to switch on an inbuilt player (in the Enspire hard drive unit) which then uses quality in-built Yamaha sound fonts to artificially re-create the piano sound with pedalling, putting it out through both the piano speakers and the MusiCast system. But it is only an approximation of the fabulous quality of sound that your piano can give from playing it live.

If a Yamaha .wav file is playing the piano and it has an accompaniment, that accompaniment will be heard coming out of the piano's speakers, but there is a separate midi track linked to that audio track, and that is being read by the drive unit in your piano to move the solenoids. Switching to Silent Play will divert the midi signal to the inbuilt player, where sound fonts will convert the signal to an audio track which then goes out through both the piano speakers and the MusiCast system.

I guess that the audio signal coming from the Audio-Out RCAs could be tapped and sent to a microphone input, but that is little better than what I have been doing with midis and sound fonts and conversion to .wav from inside my computer.

I intend to buy a microphone for much the same reasons as you, although, for the moment my smart phone and video camera seem to make sound recordings adequate enough for my present needs.

If you tell me of some of your favourite composers, I will send you some superbly played files to put thru your Enspire.

Ian Williamson

On 31/10/2017, at 3:20 PM, Alak Ghosh alakghosh@yahoo.ca [disklavier] wrote:

Hi Ian,

1) I didn't know that since I haven't tried plugging headphones into the piano yet. Auto-quiet mode with headphones is a great feature!

3) I want to get the performance quality of the Disklavier into WAV format rather than a generic MIDI to WAV conversion on a computer which will not capture the nuances of the extended MIDI used on the Enspire. My goal is to record my own playing until I am satisfied and then keep good performances and convert them to WAV from the saved MIDI. Your idea of using the headphone audio out will probably be a good workaround for now but I really hope that there is some yet undiscovered way of getting the converted WAV from the Disklavier itself since it is the only device which understands the detailed MIDI performance data.

Regarding playing non-Disklavier MIDI files on the Enspire, you are way ahead of me there. I don't really do any MIDI editing but I did notice that standard MIDI piano are very mechanical sounding and quite loud as you described. I tried a couple of general MIDI files that included other instruments and it just didn't work correctly at all. The playback didn't happen on the correct instruments and it sounded horrible. I didn't have time to look into it. It looks like QMidi is a Mac based MIDI editing tool. Anything simple you suggest for Windows?

I mentioned earlier about using RCA audio input on the Enspire. I now keep an RCA to male stereo cable always connected and available to plug into music sources like my iPad. This way I can practice playing along with recordings and backing tracks. It is really cool to have the audio setup as a part of the piano as opposed to having to have a separate amplifier and speaker setup in the room to go along with the piano.

Do you have any issues getting the USB dongle to stay connected to your home router? Is mine possibly defective? I need to contact support about that I think.

Alak.