Greetings everyone,
I have a D-3 with a diskclavier, an older one. We have linked it to a
computer so we can import midi files, and that works well.
Now we are having a challenge. I do a bit of music writing and would like
to use the piano to imput some of my own stuff, and I want it to also save
as transcribed music. We have been shopping programs for this and would
like to know if anybody has some recommendations for music transcription
software which is compatible. We would appreciate any advice yall have.
Please forgive if this has been addressed before, I am new to the list.
thanks
Marti
----- Original Message -----
From: <disklavier@yahoogroups.com>
To: <disklavier@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2004 3:35 AM
Subject: [disklavier] Digest Number 780
> There are 8 messages in this issue.
>
> Topics in this digest:
>
> 1. Re: Stoptime and Clair Thump Re: Pedal, tracks, channels,
velocity, Cakewalk
> From: "Danny" <simpsond@...>
> 2. A reply to your message.
> From: Spencer Chase <spencer@...>
> 3. Re: A reply to your message.
> From: Robert Welcyng <rwelcyng@...>
> 4. Re: Stoptime and Clair Thump Re: Pedal, tracks, channels,
velocity, Cakewalk
> From: Walter Sharpe <wlsharpe@...>
> 5. About DKV sensors and grayscale
> From: "Carol Beigel" <crbrpt@...>
> 6. Re: Stoptime and Clair Thump Re: Pedal, tracks, channels,
velocity, Cakewalk
> From: Robert Welcyng <rwelcyng@...>
> 7. A reply to your message.
> From: Spencer Chase <spencer@...>
> 8. Pedal thumping
> From: Robert Welcyng <rwelcyng@...>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2004 09:42:27 -0500
> From: "Danny" <simpsond@...>
> Subject: Re: Stoptime and Clair Thump Re: Pedal, tracks, channels,
velocity, Cakewalk
>
> From: Walter Sharpe
>
> Here's another one that demonstrates the thump pretty well: Attached
is an
> excerpt from Richard Carlson's excellent work "optimized for the
Disklavier."
> http://www.geocities.com/~rwcpno/ It's part of Clair de Lune. Normally,
there's
> supposed to be quite a bit of quiet time in this piece. However, the pedal
thump
> from my misbehaving MX500 is so bad that it sets all of my strings to
vibrating
> during quiet time.
>
> ************
>
> Hi Walter,
>
> The reason that I keep pressing on this issue, our current Yahoo Group
'files'
> section is currently being re-organized under Todd's direction. It could
also
> *possibly* be updated as an option so that some of the current MIDI files
inside
> this 'files' area be modified to a 'common' medium so that many
Disklaviers
> could respond similarly (as well as possible) using the same files. Then
again,
> all of this may not be possible. Spencer is currently working on the
velocity
> (loudness) and may modify his program for other uses. This would be a
great
> asset for all of us. It would be nice so that everyone would not need to
modify
> these same files (reinvent the wheel) to work a bit better. I realize that
at
> least some of Mark IIs do not work with continuous pedal properly on MIDI
> channel 1.
>
> There are two problems that we have been discussing here:
>
> 1) velocity data, (loudness) and
> 2) sustain pedal data ('thumping' noise).
>
> Regarding item #2, I tried the attached 'Clair de Lune' file
(ClairBit.mid) and
> sure enough, it does 'thump' a fair amount. I then modified the sustain
pedal
> 'off' (the '0' parameter) in your original file to '40' and the thump
problem
> went totally away on my Mark II XG. (It may not be closing entirely.) This
is
> all kept on channel 1. I have attached it here as 'ClairBit 2.mid'. For
> reference, I have also included Walter's original 'Clair de Lune' MIDI
file.
>
> Apparently, there may be some Mark II DKVs that work OK (or somewhat OK)
with
> continuous pedaling on channel 1. As was pointed out, typically on Mark II
DKVs,
> for continuous pedaling to work properly, the sustain pedal data should
normally
> be moved to channel 3.
>
> Robert, I believe the firmware in my Mark II XG is version 1.44, as that
was the
> latest download that I received from Yamaha which I still on my computer.
(I'm
> not certain on how to show the firmware revision number on my piano.) I'm
just
> trying to find some commonality between our systems.
>
> If anyone else on the list has a Mark II XG, please try these two attached
files
> on their piano and let me know of any pedaling noise differences between
the two
> files. And, if you know, please report the firmware revision in your
MarkII.
>
> All this simply makes life a bit easier in not having to move the
controller
> data to another channel.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Danny
>
>
> [This message contained attachments]
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2004 07:17:35 -0800
> From: Spencer Chase <spencer@...>
> Subject: A reply to your message.
>
> Greetings
>
> I have several ideas to try for making a MIDI file de-thumper and will
> probably have time to work on it soon. I will not have a lot of time
> to apply to it so I would like to see if there is a consensus among
> users as to what is most likely to work the best.
>
> I have some ideas for adding gradual controllers but timing issues may
> make it difficult to perfect so changing controller value and / or
> shifting to channel 3 might make sense to try first. I can easily make
> a program that sets the on and off levels to any desired level and
> switches the events to channel 3. One problem with using a level
> greater than 0 for pedal off is that the pedal will stay on forever if
> the file is stopped before a pedal with 0 is sent. I can add all pedal
> controller off events at the end of each file but this will not help
> if a file is not played to completion.
>
> So, if there is a feeling that a program to switch pedal events to
> channel 3 with user chosen levels might work, I'll put it together for
> testing.
>
>
>
>
> --
> Best regards,
> Spencer Chase mailto:spencer@...
> 67550 Bell Springs Rd.
> Garberville, CA 95542 Postal service only.
> Laytonville, CA 95454 UPS only.
> Spencer@...
> http://www.spencerserolls.com
> http://www.spencerserolls.com/MidiValve.htm
> (707) 984-8356
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2004 11:16:20 -0900
> From: Robert Welcyng <rwelcyng@...>
> Subject: Re: A reply to your message.
>
> Thanks for your note, Spencer.
>
> I haven't tried your program. Please jog my memory and tell me where I
> can get it so I can give it a spin.
>
> When people in the group started debating, "Should I scale or should I
> shift velocities?", I thought it was time to say something, since to do
> a decent job, one may have to do more and have some understanding of
> what's happening.
>
> IMO, fussing with velocities is a desperate effort to make a piece
> listenable. I do it myself--the Oguri files, for example. I like his
> Satie pieces and I just don't know of any PianoSoft-quality files of
> Satie. Worked-over, they are far better than nothing at all, but are
> still short of what I'd like.
>
> When I do resort to adjusting velocities, I like to see what I'm doing.
> Veloset has been very useful to me in displaying an instant histogram.
> (Before I used Veloset, I made histograms using a klutzy method
> involving Cakewalk and Excel.)
>
> I do not adjust velocities so often that efficiency of the process is a
> big concern to me. I would still do the files one at a time. The Oguri
> files were all sufficiently different that the scaling percentages and
> offsets that I chose were somewhat different.
>
> As for the thumping problems, much of that may be due to lack of DKV
> pedal adjustment and calibration. It's a fussy procedure. It's my
> impression that most tuner/techs are comfortable working on a piano, but
> tend to shy away from messing with the Disklavier portion. I've have a
> publication from Yamaha which exhorts techs to perform, on every visit,
> the "Irreducible Minimum Disklavier Service", yet my tech will not.
>
> My point is: Just as you don't tune an engine with dirty spark plugs,
> you don't try to eliminate thumping with software when the pedal is out
> of adjustment.
>
> Limiting the pedal to the range of 20 to 95 has worked for me, both on
> continuous and on/off files. The noise elimination is not total,
> especially for on/off, but I believe it's tolerable.
>
> Bob
>
> Spencer Chase wrote:
> > Greetings Robert,
> >
> > It is interesting to hear of al the complicated ways to make velocity
> > adjustments to MIDI files. My program does all those various steps in
> > one operation and it will do it on a single file or any number of
> > them. No making of tables for cal scripts to reference. This is
> > exactly what my program does. You make the in/ out mapping chart (I
> > call it a preset)by adjusting 32 slide controls. These can be saved
> > copied or edited. Each slider covers a range of 4 velocity points and
> > smoothing is done between the ranges. You can set a minimum by mapping
> > all velocities below a certain value to that value and can do the same
> > with setting an upper limit. Scaling is done by mapping any range to a
> > higher or lower proportional value. It is just like using graphic
> > equalizer on an audio amp. You can do fixed offsetting in ranges or
> > dynamic compression or expansion or both at the same time. Scaling can
> > be linear or non linear so you can compensate for things like a
> > compressed low end while treating the middle and high end differently
> > or not at all.
> >
> > Veloset does some of this but you can not make fixed offsets, nor can
> > you make the scaling anything other than the one way (linear?)it does
> > it. In addition, you can only do one file at a time.
> >
> > Cakewalk requires opening each file. Working on separate ranges of
> > velocities involves multiple selections etc etc.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Sunday, January 4, 2004, 6:32:30 PM, you wrote:
> >
> > RW> Re adjusting velocities:
> >
> > RW> Suppose you wish to prepare one of Katsuhiro Oguri's typical files
for
> > RW> the DKV. Take a look at the file's velocity distribution using
Veloset.
> > RW> Suppose, for example, you find the range runs from 7 to 127 and
that
> > RW> the occurrence of velocities between 7 and 30 is comparatively
sparse.
> > RW> Suppose your (arbitrary) aim is to group the velocities into a range
of
> > RW> 25 to 90.
> >
> > RW> Here is how you could proceed with Cakewalk Pro Audio 9:
> >
> > RW> 1. First, take those few notes from 7 to 30, and make them all 30.
> > RW> (You are not going to waste 24 steps of dynamic range on a few
percent
> > RW> of the notes.) Using Cakewalk's filter, select the notes of
velocity
> > RW> from 1 and 30. Now use Edit/Velocity to set them all to 30. Save
and
> > RW> view again with Veloset.
> >
> > RW> 2. Now, the range is 30 to 127 . . . a width of 97. You want to
scrunch
> > RW> that range of 97 to a range of 90 minus 25 . . . a width of 65. So,
the
> > RW> percentage to scale is (90 - 25)/(127 - 30) which is 67%. Now,
select
> > RW> all notes and use Edit/Velocity to scale by 67%. Save and check
your
> > RW> work with Veloset. (Or, you could have just scaled using Veloset.)
> > RW> Note that the range is now 20 to 85.
> >
> > RW> 3. To put the range where you want it, you need to move it up 5
steps.
> > RW> Select all notes and use Edit/Midi Effects/Cakewalk FX/Velocity and
> > RW> "Change Velocities by" to add 5 to each note's velocity. Save and
check
> > RW> with Veloset. They should be right where you wanted them.
> >
> > RW> In summary, to make linear changes, you need to use a tool that is
able
> > RW> to both scale by a percentage and to make fixed offsets.
> >
> > RW> If you wish to get fancy, it is possible to make non-linear changes
by
> > RW> writing a table of the desired "before" and "after" velocity values
and
> > RW> incorporating those values in a CAL routine within Cakewalk.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > RW> Walter Sharpe wrote:
> >
> >>>Spencer,
> >>>
> >>>Thanks. I was hoping your program could help with pedal thump too but I
> >>>guess the problem lies somewhere in the MX500 Disklavier II design,
> >>>construction and/or adjustment.
> >>>
> >>>I'll check out your program. The idea of reducing velocities by
> >>>percentages in order to retain dynamic range as suggested by PianoBench
> >>>seems like an improvement over my method. I am anxious to see the
> >>>results of his look at your program. It has to be interesting if it
gets
> >>>a Mac person to take a look. :-) -Walt
> >>>
> >>>Spencer Chase <spencer@...> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Greetings Walter,
> >>>
> >>> Thanks for the report on what you do to improve midi files for use
on
> >>> the DKV. It sounds like nothing is really going to improve a
thumping
> >>> pedal. That was my suspicion. I was just hoping to include a
function
> >>> in my program if something could be described that would fix a
problem
> >>> with the files. Sounds like this is not the case.
> >>>
> >>> With all the adjusting that you do to velocities you might find my
> >>> velocity adjusting program to be useful. You can define presets to
> >>> adjust minimum and maximum levels as well as adding a general
increase
> >>> or decrease. You don't have to keep opening and closing files.
Just
> >>> direct the program to the folder containing files and all will be
> >>> processed automatically. Once you figure out the presets that you
> >>> need, you can save them and use them over and over.
> >>>
> >>> I will be updating and improving the program as I find things that
> >>> need improving. You can find the latest version at:
> >>>
> >>> http://www.spencerserolls.com/VelMod/VelMod.zip
> >>>
> >>> Be sure to click on the help button for description as to how the
> >>> program works.
> >>>
> >>> Saturday, January 3, 2004, 11:04:33 PM, you wrote:
> >>>
> >>> WS> Thank you Fred, Spencer and Piano Bench,
> >>>
> >>> WS> I will respond to your various comments (copied below)
> >>> WS> all at once rather than separately to make it easier for you
all
> >>> WS> to follow. Maybe some others out there will benefit from some
of
> >>> WS> the information here.
> >>>
> >>> WS> Since my response is rather lengthy, I have included it
> >>> WS> in an attached zip file along with some midi files that
> >>> WS> demonstrate some of my points. They sound very nice too so
maybe
> >>> WS> those who are not that interested in the discussion will at
least
> >>> WS> enjoy the music!
> >>>
> >>> WS> -Walt
> >>> WS> ------------------------
> >>> WS> To: "Walter Sharpe"
> >>> WS> From: "Spencer Chase" Add to Address Book
> >>> WS> Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2004 00:09:40 -0800
> >>> WS> Subject: [disklavier] pedal thumping etc.
> >>> WS>
> >>> WS> Greetings Walter and Group,
> >>>
> >>> WS> I am writing utility programs to modify MIDI files. Is there
> >>> WS> some agreement regarding what needs to be done to eliminate
> >>> WS> duplicate track data etc for problems like pedal thumping? Is
this
> >>> WS> an issolated problem or do certain MIDI file conventions (I
really
> >>> WS> don't understand the need for duplicate pedal information to
be in
> >>> WS> files to begin with.) produce files that cause problems and is
> >>> WS> there a need for utilities to remove or shift these events?
> >>>
> >>> WS> Most of the functions in my utilities are for electronic
> >>> WS> piano rolls but I am hoping to add functions for use by DKV
> >>> WS> owners. What sorts of functions are needed. I can easily add
> >>> WS> functions like merging tracks. I already can do this and can
fix
> >>> WS> resulting overlaps but have not attempted to remove redundant
> >>> WS> events. This is probably not difficult to do but is it
necessary?
> >>> WS> Does the DKV care if events are duplicated?
> >>> WS> --------------------------
> >>> WS> To: disklavier@yahoogroups.com
> >>> WS> From: PianoBench@... Add to Address Book
> >>> WS> Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2004 09:43:46 EST
> >>> WS> Subject: Re: [disklavier] Re: 3 mysterious Disklavier
> >>> WS> problems (Pedal Thump Revisited)
> >>>
> >>> WS> Good morning, everyone.
> >>>
> >>> WS> Walt, I think it is time to call Yamaha Piano Service
> >>> WS> directly. You should not have to wait so long for your
technician
> >>> WS> to take care of this matter.
> >>>
> >>> WS> All pianos will have some level of noise due to their
> >>> WS> mechanical nature. Your narrative seems to show that your
> >>> WS> instrument is outside of normal parameters.
> >>>
> >>> WS> Yamaha Piano Service: (800) 854-1569 between 8:30-5:00 PST.
> >>> WS> Push 2 at the first menu choice and 2 at the second menu
choice.
> >>>
> >>> WS> I hasten to add, though, that I think the best test of your
> >>> WS> instrument would be to see how it plays song files that were
> >>> WS> recorded in realtime by a pianist on a Disklavier. The song
files
> >>> WS> from
> >>> WS> www.parlorsongs.com were not recorded by a pianist on a
> >>> WS> Disklavier. Although they may be enjoyable, they represent a
> >>> WS> totally artificial creation.
> >>>
> >>> WS> Regards,
> >>> WS> PianoBench
> >>> WS> ----------------------
> >>> WS> o: disklavier@yahoogroups.com
> >>> WS> From: "fkagel" Add to Address Book
> >>> WS> Date: Sat, 03 Jan 2004 10:09:07 -0000
> >>> WS> Subject: [disklavier] Re: 3 mysterious Disklavier problems
> >>> (Pedal Thump Revisited)
> >>>
> >>> WS> Walt,
> >>>
> >>> WS> Starting with the source, the 12th St Rag Midi file is
> >>> WS> strictly on/off (up/down) for the sustain pedal, no ands, ifs,
or
> >>> WS> buts. Therefore, continuous (HP/Half Pedal) is a mute issue
with
> >>> WS> this particular file.In Cakewalk, View | Events and observe
> >>> WS> Controller 64 (the sustain pedal) as 127 or 0 --- right down
thump
> >>> WS> alley. In Cakewalk or other sequencing program, you can lower
the
> >>> WS> upper values. You did not delete all of the pedal info as you
have
> >>> WS> indicated below. I still saw Controller 64 data.
> >>>
> >>> WS> I am not familiar with your model DKV (we have a Mark III),
> >>> WS> and not sure of your controller's capabilities with regard to
HP
> >>> WS> data. What happens if you record something and observe the
> >>> WS> Controller values in Cakewalk? Are they not in a variable
range?
> >>> WS> How does the thumping sound?
> >>>
> >>> WS> AFAIK, you can redirect only one MIDI channel to the DSK
> >>> WS> itself through the Mark III controller functions, so what you
are
> >>> WS> doing with the midi file is just fine. I was referring to a
file
> >>> WS> that already had Piano on Channel 1 and 2 and pedal on 3.
> >>>
> >>> WS> Fred
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> WS> Do you Yahoo!?
> >>> WS> Find out what made the Top Yahoo! Searches of 2003
> >>>
> >>> WS> To Post a message to the group, send it to:
> >>> disklavier@...
> >>>
> >>> WS> To Post a private message to Todd Muncy, the group's founder
and
> >>> moderator, send it to:
> >>> WS> disklavier-owner@...
> >>>
> >>> WS> To reach our group's web site go to:
> >>> WS> http://Yahoogroups.com/group/disklavier
> >>>
> >>> WS> Todd's family web site was completely updated 012/22/03. It
> >>> WS> contains some fun disklavier content and links to midi sites
among
> >>> WS> many other things, The url is:
> >>> WS> http://MuncyFamily.com
> >>>
> >>> WS> THINKING OF LEAVING THE GROUP?
> >>> WS> If you are thinking of unsubcribing because you are getting
> >>> WS> too much mail, go the the web site and change your email
delivery
> >>> WS> option instead. That will fix the problem, while maintaining
your
> >>> WS> access to the group. If you insist on leaving us completely
send
> >>> WS> a blank email to:
> >>> WS> disklavier-unsubscribe@...
> >>>
> >>> WS> Know someone who wants to join? Have them send a blank email
to:
> >>> WS> disklavier-subscribe@... or give them this link:
> >>> WS> http://Yahoogroups.com/group/disklavier/join
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> WS> Yahoo! Groups Links
> >>> WS> To visit your group on the web, go to:
> >>> WS> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/disklavier/
> >>> WS> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> >>> WS> disklavier-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >>> WS> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> >>> Service.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> Best regards,
> >>> Spencer Chase mailto:spencer@...
> >>> 67550 Bell Springs Rd.
> >>> Garberville, CA 95542 Postal service only.
> >>> Laytonville, CA 95454 UPS only.
> >>> Spencer@...
> >>> http://www.spencerserolls.com
> >>> http://www.spencerserolls.com/MidiValve.htm
> >>> (707) 984-8356
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> To Post a message to the group, send it to:
disklavier@...
> >>>
> >>> To Post a private message to Todd Muncy, the group's founder and
> >>> moderator, send it to:
> >>> disklavier-owner@...
> >>>
> >>> To reach our group's web site go to:
> >>> http://Yahoogroups.com/group/disklavier
> >>>
> >>> Todd's family web site was completely updated 012/22/03. It
contains
> >>> some fun disklavier content and links to midi sites among many
other
> >>> things, The url is:
> >>> http://MuncyFamily.com
> >>>
> >>> THINKING OF LEAVING THE GROUP?
> >>> If you are thinking of unsubcribing because you are getting too
much
> >>> mail, go the the web site and change your email delivery option
> >>> instead. That will fix the problem, while maintaining your access
to
> >>> the group. If you insist on leaving us completely send a blank
email to:
> >>> disklavier-unsubscribe@...
> >>>
> >>> Know someone who wants to join? Have them send a blank email to:
> >>> disklavier-subscribe@... or give them this link:
> >>> http://Yahoogroups.com/group/disklavier/join
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Yahoo! Groups Links
> >>>
> >>> To visit your group on the web, go to:
> >>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/disklavier/
> >>>
> >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> >>> disklavier-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >>>
> >>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
> >>> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
>
>>>------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>Do you Yahoo!?
> >>>Find out what made the Top Yahoo! Searches of 2003
> >>><http://search.yahoo.com/top2003>
> >>>
> >>>To Post a message to the group, send it to:
disklavier@...
> >>>
> >>>To Post a private message to Todd Muncy, the group's founder and
> >>>moderator, send it to:
> >>>disklavier-owner@...
> >>>
> >>>To reach our group's web site go to:
> >>>http://Yahoogroups.com/group/disklavier
> >>>
> >>>Todd's family web site was completely updated 012/22/03. It contains
> >>>some fun disklavier content and links to midi sites among many other
> >>>things, The url is:
> >>>http://MuncyFamily.com
> >>>
> >>>THINKING OF LEAVING THE GROUP?
> >>>If you are thinking of unsubcribing because you are getting too much
> >>>mail, go the the web site and change your email delivery option
> >>>instead. That will fix the problem, while maintaining your access to
> >>>the group. If you insist on leaving us completely send a blank email
to:
> >>>disklavier-unsubscribe@...
> >>>
> >>>Know someone who wants to join? Have them send a blank email to:
> >>>disklavier-subscribe@... or give them this link:
> >>>http://Yahoogroups.com/group/disklavier/join
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
>
>>>------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>Yahoo! Groups Links
> >>>
> >>> * To visit your group on the web, go to:
> >>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/disklavier/
> >>>
> >>> * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> >>> disklavier-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >>>
> >>><mailto:disklavier-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
> >>>
> >>> * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> >>>Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Robert Welcyng
> Anchorage, Alaska
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2004 19:49:43 -0800 (PST)
> From: Walter Sharpe <wlsharpe@...>
> Subject: Re: Stoptime and Clair Thump Re: Pedal, tracks, channels,
velocity, Cakewalk
>
> Danny,
>
> Absolutely no difference in the way these two versions sound on my MX500
II. It treats a 40 just like a 0.
>
> The project you are working on is very worthwhile!
>
> Walt
>
> Danny <simpsond@...> wrote:
> .....
>
> The reason that I keep pressing on this issue, our current Yahoo Group
'files'
> section is currently being re-organized under Todd's direction. It could
also
> *possibly* be updated as an option so that some of the current MIDI files
inside
> this 'files' area be modified to a 'common' medium so that many
Disklaviers
> could respond similarly (as well as possible) using the same files. Then
again,
> all of this may not be possible. Spencer is currently working on the
velocity
> (loudness) and may modify his program for other uses. This would be a
great
> asset for all of us. It would be nice so that everyone would not need to
modify
> these same files (reinvent the wheel) to work a bit better. I realize that
at
> least some of Mark IIs do not work with continuous pedal properly on MIDI
> channel 1.
>
> There are two problems that we have been discussing here:
>
> 1) velocity data, (loudness) and
> 2) sustain pedal data ('thumping' noise).
>
> Regarding item #2, I tried the attached 'Clair de Lune' file
(ClairBit.mid) and
> sure enough, it does 'thump' a fair amount. I then modified the sustain
pedal
> 'off' (the '0' parameter) in your original file to '40' and the thump
problem
> went totally away on my Mark II XG. (It may not be closing entirely.) This
is
> all kept on channel 1. I have attached it here as 'ClairBit 2.mid'. For
> reference, I have also included Walter's original 'Clair de Lune' MIDI
file.
>
> Apparently, there may be some Mark II DKVs that work OK (or somewhat OK)
with
> continuous pedaling on channel 1. As was pointed out, typically on Mark II
DKVs,
> for continuous pedaling to work properly, the sustain pedal data should
normally
> be moved to channel 3.
>
> Robert, I believe the firmware in my Mark II XG is version 1.44, as that
was the
> latest download that I received from Yamaha which I still on my computer.
(I'm
> not certain on how to show the firmware revision number on my piano.) I'm
just
> trying to find some commonality between our systems.
>
> If anyone else on the list has a Mark II XG, please try these two attached
files
> on their piano and let me know of any pedaling noise differences between
the two
> files. And, if you know, please report the firmware revision in your
MarkII.
>
> All this simply makes life a bit easier in not having to move the
controller
> data to another channel.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Danny
>
> > ATTACHMENT part 2 audio/mid name=ClairBit 2.mid
>
>
> > ATTACHMENT part 3 audio/mid name=ClairBit.mid
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
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>
> [This message contained attachments]
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 01:08:51 -0500
> From: "Carol Beigel" <crbrpt@...>
> Subject: About DKV sensors and grayscale
>
> To save some of you a lot of time, I thought I would mention what I
perceive
> to be a misconception. Pedal, key and hammer sensors only affect the
> Recording and have nothing to do with playback.
>
> All Yamaha PianoSoft music is RECORDED on DKV models with incremental
> pedaling. When you use the Record feature yourself, this data is also
> recorded. Using the gray scale, this data is encoded in the pedal
> information. If you have a DKV with incremental pedaling, as most do,
then
> this data plays back on your DKV. If you don't have this feature, the
pedal
> will be either ON or OFF. The gray scale sensors only observe and record
> data, not do anything to control the playback of the pedal solenoid.
> Disklaviers without incremental pedaling will ALWAYS be thumpier than
those
> equipped with this feature.
>
> The same goes for Key and Hammer sensors. These things simply record what
> is happening and translate the information into data. They have no
control
> over playback. Disklavier acoustic pianos are completely controlled by
the
> geometry and mechanics of the mechanical piano action that causes the
piano
> hammers to strike the strings.
>
> All this means is that Disklaviers equipped with incremental pedaling and
> hammer sensors will RECORD a piano performance with more nuance than those
> DKVs without them. Your Disklavier, however, will respond to music
recorded
> on other pianos even though the data on these files is not necessarily
> optimized for your model. Yamaha PianoSoft will always be optimized to
play
> on your instruments. Most of the MIDI files on the internet, as most have
> you have noticed, are NOT optimized for playback on an acoustic piano and
> require adjustments to the volume and sometimes the pedal data. That does
> not mean there are deficiencies in your DKV design or condition!!
>
> Carol Beigel
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2004 21:54:27 -0900
> From: Robert Welcyng <rwelcyng@...>
> Subject: Re: Stoptime and Clair Thump Re: Pedal, tracks, channels,
velocity, Cakewalk
>
> > Danny <simpsond@...> wrote:
>
> Robert, I believe the firmware in my Mark II XG is version 1.44, as that
> was the
> latest download that I received from Yamaha which I still on my
> computer. (I'm
> not certain on how to show the firmware revision number on my piano.)
> I'm just
> trying to find some commonality between our systems.
>
> R: Danny, I have a Mark II only, not an XG, so we'll surely have
> different ROM versions (and, perhaps, different characteristics). Mine
> has two different ROMs:
>
> 1) PK CTL ROM: Version 2.03 (Apr 4, 1995) (Power on with the L&R buttons
> pressed; press "+" once; press "Song Select Fwd".)
>
> 2) Sensor Prgm ROM: Version 1.24 (Dec 14, 1993) (Power on with the L&R
> pressed; press "+" twice; press "Song Select Fwd".)
>
> {My ROMs are just that (not EPROMs) and had to be physically changed out.)
>
> BTW, in the comparisons you two are making and describing, are you
> playing the MIDI files from a diskette in the DKV drive or from an
> external computer?
>
> Bob
>
> Walter Sharpe wrote:
> > Danny,
> >
> > Absolutely no difference in the way these two versions sound on my MX500
> > II. It treats a 40 just like a 0.
> >
> > The project you are working on is very worthwhile!
> >
> > Walt
> >
> > Danny <simpsond@...> wrote:
> >
> > .....
> >
> > The reason that I keep pressing on this issue, our current Yahoo
> > Group 'files'
> > section is currently being re-organized under Todd's direction. It
> > could also
> > *possibly* be updated as an option so that some of the current MIDI
> > files inside
> > this 'files' area be modified to a 'common' medium so that many
> > Disklaviers
> > could respond similarly (as well as possible) using the same files.
> > Then again,
> > all of this may not be possible. Spencer is currently working on the
> > velocity
> > (loudness) and may modify his program for other uses. This would be
> > a great
> > asset for all of us. It would be nice so that everyone would not
> > need to modify
> > these same files (reinvent the wheel) to work a bit better. I
> > realize that at
> > least some of Mark IIs do not work with continuous pedal properly on
> > MIDI
> > channel 1.
> >
> > There are two problems that we have been discussing here:
> >
> > 1) velocity data, (loudness) and
> > 2) sustain pedal data ('thumping' noise).
> >
> > Regarding item #2, I tried the attached 'Clair de Lune' file
> > (ClairBit.mid) and
> > sure enough, it does 'thump' a fair amount. I then modified the
> > sustain pedal
> > 'off' (the '0' parameter) in your original file to '40' and the
> > thump problem
> > went totally away on my Mark II XG. (It may not be closing
> > entirely.) This is
> > all kept on channel 1. I have attached it here as 'ClairBit 2.mid'.
For
> > reference, I have also included Walter's original 'Clair de Lune'
> > MIDI file.
> >
> > Apparently, there may be some Mark II DKVs that work OK (or somewhat
> > OK) with
> > continuous pedaling on channel 1. As was pointed out, typically on
> > Mark II DKVs,
> > for continuous pedaling to work properly, the sustain pedal data
> > should normally
> > be moved to channel 3.
> >
> > Robert, I believe the firmware in my Mark II XG is version 1.44, as
> > that was the
> > latest download that I received from Yamaha which I still on my
> > computer. (I'm
> > not certain on how to show the firmware revision number on my
> > piano.) I'm just
> > trying to find some commonality between our systems.
> >
> > If anyone else on the list has a Mark II XG, please try these two
> > attached files
> > on their piano and let me know of any pedaling noise differences
> > between the two
> > files. And, if you know, please report the firmware revision in your
> > MarkII.
> >
> > All this simply makes life a bit easier in not having to move the
> > controller
> > data to another channel.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Danny
> >
> > > ATTACHMENT part 2 audio/mid name=ClairBit 2.mid
> >
> >
> > > ATTACHMENT part 3 audio/mid name=ClairBit.mid
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> > Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes
> >
<http://pa.yahoo.com/*http://us.rd.yahoo.com/hotjobs/mail_footer_email/evt=2
1482/*http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus>
> >
> >
> > To Post a message to the group, send it to: disklavier@...
> >
> > To Post a private message to Todd Muncy, the group's founder and
> > moderator, send it to:
> > disklavier-owner@...
> >
> > To reach our group's web site go to:
> > http://Yahoogroups.com/group/disklavier
> >
> > Todd's family web site was completely updated 012/22/03. It contains
> > some fun disklavier content and links to midi sites among many other
> > things, The url is:
> > http://MuncyFamily.com
> >
> > THINKING OF LEAVING THE GROUP?
> > If you are thinking of unsubcribing because you are getting too much
> > mail, go the the web site and change your email delivery option
> > instead. That will fix the problem, while maintaining your access to
> > the group. If you insist on leaving us completely send a blank email
to:
> > disklavier-unsubscribe@...
> >
> > Know someone who wants to join? Have them send a blank email to:
> > disklavier-subscribe@... or give them this link:
> > http://Yahoogroups.com/group/disklavier/join
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> > * To visit your group on the web, go to:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/disklavier/
> >
> > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > disklavier-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >
<mailto:disklavier-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
> >
> > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> > Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Robert Welcyng
> Anchorage, Alaska
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2004 18:39:28 -0800
> From: Spencer Chase <spencer@...>
> Subject: A reply to your message.
>
> Greetings Robert,
>
> http://www.spencerserolls.com/VelMod/VelMod.zip for the velocity
> program.
>
> On some computers, it seems that the c drive does not show up in the
> directory tree until you add it from the add function below the tree.
> I have not figured out why this is different on some computers. Anyway
> it does work if you add it. Also, one person mentioned that the preset
> file is saved on the desktop. Otherwise, it works.
>
> The main use of the program would be with files that are consistently
> different in terms of velocities from what is wanted. Nothing is going
> to fix up an individual file as well as you can by listening to it
> over and over and fiddling forever.
>
> I can add a histogram plotting function to the program if it would be
> useful but this will require some learning, on my part, about graphic
> displays. Since veloset does this it might not be the highest
> priority.
>
> It has been my opinion that Yamaha would operate the pedals properly
> and that thumping pedals are caused by improper adjustment. Getting a
> tech to adjust this properly may not be easy and many pianos do seem
> to thump loudly. It also seems to be a problem with PianoDisc. That is
> why I am thinking about making the program to minimize it.
>
> Monday, January 5, 2004, 12:16:20 PM, you wrote:
>
> RW> Thanks for your note, Spencer.
>
> RW> I haven't tried your program. Please jog my memory and tell me where
I
> RW> can get it so I can give it a spin.
>
> RW> When people in the group started debating, "Should I scale or should I
> RW> shift velocities?", I thought it was time to say something, since to
do
> RW> a decent job, one may have to do more and have some understanding of
> RW> what's happening.
>
> RW> IMO, fussing with velocities is a desperate effort to make a piece
> RW> listenable. I do it myself--the Oguri files, for example. I like his
> RW> Satie pieces and I just don't know of any PianoSoft-quality files of
> RW> Satie. Worked-over, they are far better than nothing at all, but are
> RW> still short of what I'd like.
>
> RW> When I do resort to adjusting velocities, I like to see what I'm
doing.
> RW> Veloset has been very useful to me in displaying an instant
histogram.
> RW> (Before I used Veloset, I made histograms using a klutzy method
> RW> involving Cakewalk and Excel.)
>
> RW> I do not adjust velocities so often that efficiency of the process is
a
> RW> big concern to me. I would still do the files one at a time. The
Oguri
> RW> files were all sufficiently different that the scaling percentages and
> RW> offsets that I chose were somewhat different.
>
> RW> As for the thumping problems, much of that may be due to lack of DKV
> RW> pedal adjustment and calibration. It's a fussy procedure. It's my
> RW> impression that most tuner/techs are comfortable working on a piano,
but
> RW> tend to shy away from messing with the Disklavier portion. I've have
a
> RW> publication from Yamaha which exhorts techs to perform, on every
visit,
> RW> the "Irreducible Minimum Disklavier Service", yet my tech will not.
>
> RW> My point is: Just as you don't tune an engine with dirty spark plugs,
> RW> you don't try to eliminate thumping with software when the pedal is
out
> RW> of adjustment.
>
> RW> Limiting the pedal to the range of 20 to 95 has worked for me, both on
> RW> continuous and on/off files. The noise elimination is not total,
> RW> especially for on/off, but I believe it's tolerable.
>
> RW> Bob
>
>
>
> --
> Best regards,
> Spencer Chase mailto:spencer@...
> 67550 Bell Springs Rd.
> Garberville, CA 95542 Postal service only.
> Laytonville, CA 95454 UPS only.
> Spencer@...
> http://www.spencerserolls.com
> http://www.spencerserolls.com/MidiValve.htm
> (707) 984-8356
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 8
> Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2004 23:40:20 -0900
> From: Robert Welcyng <rwelcyng@...>
> Subject: Pedal thumping
>
> I'm taking the liberty of quoting (under fair use, I hope) from a Yamaha
> maintenance document.
>
> --------------------------------
>
> . . . The core
> plungers of the pedal drive units are not
> separate items, but instead, are built into the
> traditional pedal system, and the plunger
> moves each time the pedals are moved. It is
> fairly easy to see that a solenoid has to have a
> certain opening or "gap" while at rest to provide
> the correct amount of movement when the
> current is applied. For example, if the gap is
> less than it should be, the amount of travel of
> the solenoid plunger is decreased by that
> same amount, and might not be enough to
> move the pedal action to the correct position. It
> could also close completely causing a noise as
> the solenoid core reaches the end of its travel.
>
> Another issue is that by its electrical nature, if
> the solenoid core is stopped before the job is
> completed, the computer will continue to send
> extra current trying to get the job done. This
> extra current causes the temperature of the
> coil to rise, and could shut down the entire
> system rather than overheat. It is obvious that
> the solenoid needs to have a specified gap at
> rest to function properly. . . .
>
> ------------------
>
> Thus, too small a solenoid gap could result in a thump when the pedal
> goes full down--both when being played or during reproduction. The
> adjustment of the gap will require the tech to find or make a gauge and
> to get down on the floor with the gauge, a pair of wrenches, and perhaps
> even a penlight.
>
> That gap, if misadjusted, however, could not account for the thump when
> the pedal is released, which probably comes from 88 dampers
> simultaneously striking the strings and abruptly transferring energy
> from the damper mechanism's fall.
>
> The broad principle is standardization--all DKVs ought to play in the
> same manner. That's why pedal regulation ought to be checked and
> adjusted before before trying to compensate with MIDI pedal values.
>
> --
> Robert Welcyng
> Anchorage, Alaska
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
>
> To Post a message to the group, send it to: disklavier@...
>
> To Post a private message to Todd Muncy, the group's founder and
moderator, send it to:
> disklavier-owner@...
>
> To reach our group's web site go to:
> http://Yahoogroups.com/group/disklavier
>
> Todd's family web site was completely updated 012/22/03. It contains some
fun disklavier content and links to midi sites among many other things, The
url is:
> http://MuncyFamily.com
>
> THINKING OF LEAVING THE GROUP?
> If you are thinking of unsubcribing because you are getting too much mail,
go the the web site and change your email delivery option instead. That
will fix the problem, while maintaining your access to the group. If you
insist on leaving us completely send a blank email to:
> disklavier-unsubscribe@...
>
> Know someone who wants to join? Have them send a blank email to:
> disklavier-subscribe@... or give them this link:
> http://Yahoogroups.com/group/disklavier/join
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> To visit your group on the web, go to:
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>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
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> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Message
question re software
2004-01-06 by Kinara Hanba