Disklavier

Re: Mark III Series
    Recoding own accompaniment to CD

Is there anyone in the group that has dissected the MIDI data when 
accompanying a CD? The system 'knows' which CD is supposed to be in 
place and will indicate that the wrong one has been inserted if that 
is the case.

I've noted 3 SYSEXs at the beginning:
F0 05 7E 7F 09 01 F7 - Turns on GM, but what is the 2nd Byte 05 mean?
F0 08 43 10 4C 00 00 7E 00 F7 - XG on, but what does 2nd Byte 08 mean?
F0 05 43 71 05 01 F7 - Don't know???

Where is the MTC or what controls the CD sync? What should I be 
looking for in the hex dump?

Between the 2nd and 3rd Sysex, I have a hex dump that someone is 
welcomed to look atd. Game, Midimagic?

Fred Kagel

On Wed, 31 Dec 2003, fkagel wrote:

> Is there anyone in the group that has dissected the MIDI data when
> accompanying a CD? The system 'knows' which CD is supposed to be in
> place and will indicate that the wrong one has been inserted if that
> is the case.


I would guess that the Disklavier identifies the CD based upon the
UPC/EAN code read from the audio CD's table of contents.

If you manually read this code from a CD (a program like NERO will
probably be able to do this) you could find it in the corresponding hex
dump and figure out how to make a SYSEX message that checks for the
correct CD.


> I've noted 3 SYSEXs at the beginning:
> F0 05 7E 7F 09 01 F7 - Turns on GM, but what is the 2nd Byte 05 mean?
> F0 08 43 10 4C 00 00 7E 00 F7 - XG on, but what does 2nd Byte 08 mean?
> F0 05 43 71 05 01 F7 - Don't know???

The second byte appears to be the length of the message that follows,
including the terminating F7.

This size is probably coded as a variable-length quantity (in MIDI
file lingo) so be prepared for this length to occupy more than one byte.


> Where is the MTC or what controls the CD sync? What should I be
> looking for in the hex dump?

As for the sync, no MIDI-specific time events are required in the MIDI
file.

During playback against a CD, the MIDI timing is probably slaved to the
44.1 KHz CD sample rate, and MIDI playback is probably set to begin at a
particular time marker (0:00:00?) in the CD subcode.  This only
gets tricky when the user skips forward or backwards during playback;
the playback engine would need to be coded very carefully to maintain
sync.

Mark Fontana

Hi

F0 05 7E 7F 09 01 F7 - Turns on GM, but what is the 2nd Byte 05 mean?

The 05 tells it how many bytes are in the sysex command after the 05.

This only appears within a MIDI file and is NOT seen in a Yamaha Eseq 
file. Again F0 08 43 10 4C 00 00 7E 00 F7 the 08 mean 8 more bytes to 
follow.  
It seems toooooooo easy to be true.

Now F0 05 43 71 05 01 F7   off hand I don't know. What we can say is, 
that it belongs to Yamaha because of the 43.
The way I learned was to have a play with the bytes. AFTER you have 
made a backup try changing the 01 to 00 or 7F and see what happens, 
or doesn't.


You see the problem for me is that I do NOT have a DKV but only a CVP 
NOR can I find any E-manuals for the DKVs to download.  I would 
dearly like to get hold of the Data List book or Midi Book.

You can clearly read and understand your manual maybe you could one 
day scan it in and send it for me.

By all means send me the dumb file you have and I'll look at it. 
Don't, however, expect too much for the reasons above. 

Midi Magic




--- In disklavier@yahoogroups.com, "fkagel" <fkagel@f...> wrote:
> Re: Mark III Series
>     Recoding own accompaniment to CD
> 
> Is there anyone in the group that has dissected the MIDI data when 
> accompanying a CD? The system 'knows' which CD is supposed to be in 
> place and will indicate that the wrong one has been inserted if 
that 
> is the case.
> 
> I've noted 3 SYSEXs at the beginning:
> F0 05 7E 7F 09 01 F7 - Turns on GM, but what is the 2nd Byte 05 
mean?
> F0 08 43 10 4C 00 00 7E 00 F7 - XG on, but what does 2nd Byte 08 
mean?

> F0 05 43 71 05 01 F7 - Don't know???
> 
> Where is the MTC or what controls the CD sync? What should I be 
> looking for in the hex dump?
> 
> Between the 2nd and 3rd Sysex, I have a hex dump that someone is 
> welcomed to look atd. Game, Midimagic?
> 
> Fred Kagel

Hi Mark / All

> > Where is the MTC or what controls the CD sync? 

Forgive me if I am way out, but surly the midi data comes from the CD 
as it is being played therefor it can never get out of sync.

Mark, those 0000 & 11111 you sent are not a lot of use.
Thinking about it to get an Audio/Midi CD to play from a PC you will 
need the sound card to decode the midi from the CD and also de-
multiplex the left channel back into stereo.
IMHO it can not be done without hardware. 



Midi Magic




--- In disklavier@yahoogroups.com, "Mark A. Fontana" <mfontana@f...> 
wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> On Wed, 31 Dec 2003, fkagel wrote:
> 
> > Is there anyone in the group that has dissected the MIDI data when
> > accompanying a CD? The system 'knows' which CD is supposed to be 
in
> > place and will indicate that the wrong one has been inserted if 
that
> > is the case.
> 
> 
> I would guess that the Disklavier identifies the CD based upon the
> UPC/EAN code read from the audio CD's table of contents.
> 
> If you manually read this code from a CD (a program like NERO will
> probably be able to do this) you could find it in the corresponding 
hex
> dump and figure out how to make a SYSEX message that checks for the
> correct CD.
> 
> 
> > I've noted 3 SYSEXs at the beginning:
> > F0 05 7E 7F 09 01 F7 - Turns on GM, but what is the 2nd Byte 05 
mean?
> > F0 08 43 10 4C 00 00 7E 00 F7 - XG on, but what does 2nd Byte 08 
mean?
> > F0 05 43 71 05 01 F7 - Don't know???
> 
> The second byte appears to be the length of the message that 
follows,
> including the terminating F7.
> 
> This size is probably coded as a variable-length quantity (in MIDI
> file lingo) so be prepared for this length to occupy more than one 
byte.
> 
> 
> > Where is the MTC or what controls the CD sync? What should I be
> > looking for in the hex dump?
> 
> As for the sync, no MIDI-specific time events are required in the 
MIDI
> file.
> 
> During playback against a CD, the MIDI timing is probably slaved to 
the
> 44.1 KHz CD sample rate, and MIDI playback is probably set to begin 
at a
> particular time marker (0:00:00?) in the CD subcode.  This only
> gets tricky when the user skips forward or backwards during 
playback;
> the playback engine would need to be coded very carefully to 
maintain

> sync.
> 
> Mark Fontana

On Wed, 31 Dec 2003, midi_magic2000 wrote:

> > > Where is the MTC or what controls the CD sync?
>
> Forgive me if I am way out, but surly the midi data comes from the CD
> as it is being played therefor it can never get out of sync.

Yes, that's true for the CDs that have MIDI on one channel and audio on
the other ("PianoSoft Plus Audio"), but this thread is about the
"PianoSmart" system, in which the CD is a normal commercial audio CD and
the MIDI is stored separately on a floppy disk and synced to the CD
by the Disklavier control unit during playback.


> Thinking about it, to get an Audio/Midi CD to play from a PC you will
> need the sound card to decode the midi from the CD and also de-
> multiplex the left channel back into stereo. IMHO it can not be done
> without hardware.

Again, you're referring to the Pianosoft Plus Audio CDs. It *IS*
technically possible to decode and play these CDs on a PC; I have done
it for non-Yamaha (PianoDisc and Pianomation) CDs. I already gave your
contract programmer Dan quite a bit of advice on how to go about this
for your YAMplayer software (everything except the Yamaha analog MIDI
CD encoding itself, which you'll still need to figure out).

Mark Fontana

This is a non-technical reply from someone who knows zilch about audio CDs
except that they work. Audio CDs are digital audio, meaning the operative
word here is digital.  Whatever makes an audio CD different from a data CD
is something you guys know something about.  It is in that difference that
makes PianoSmart work.  The audio CD has data encoded so that it knows which
one it is; i.e. it knows if it is a Frank Sinatra CD from a Karen Carpenter
CD.  Whatever this data is, the Yamaha CD player reads it.  When the MIDI
information is recorded for the piano to play along with a specific audio
CD, it uses the MIDI Time Code (MTC), whatever that is!  This MTC knows
exactly when to interface with the data on the audio CD and it can be done
either inYamaha'a production department, or on your own Disklavier with the
PianoSmart program installed.

In other words, the MTC is in the MIDI info on the floppy and not on the
audio CD.  I not sure it would appear in a hex dump because it is a timer
thingy.  There is a digital timer on the audio CD and a digital timer in the
MIDI information.   All the MIDI has to do is sync with the CD timer.
That's probably why PianoSmart only works on Yamaha CD players.

Hope everyone has a happy and prosperous New Year!

Carol Beigel

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "fkagel" <fkagel@...>
To: <disklavier@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, December 30, 2003 9:32 PM
Subject: [disklavier] Dissecting Sysex and/or MTC w/ PianoSmart


> Re: Mark III Series
>     Recoding own accompaniment to CD
>
> Is there anyone in the group that has dissected the MIDI data when
> accompanying a CD? The system 'knows' which CD is supposed to be in
> place and will indicate that the wrong one has been inserted if that
> is the case.
>
> I've noted 3 SYSEXs at the beginning:
> F0 05 7E 7F 09 01 F7 - Turns on GM, but what is the 2nd Byte 05 mean?
> F0 08 43 10 4C 00 00 7E 00 F7 - XG on, but what does 2nd Byte 08 mean?
> F0 05 43 71 05 01 F7 - Don't know???
>
> Where is the MTC or what controls the CD sync? What should I be
> looking for in the hex dump?
>
> Between the 2nd and 3rd Sysex, I have a hex dump that someone is
> welcomed to look atd. Game, Midimagic?
>
> Fred Kagel
>
>
>
>
>
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This issues aren not yamaha but MIDI and MIDI FILE
try:
http://www.csw2.co.uk/tech/midi2.htm#BM0_
For a nice explanation.

Also:
http://www2.sfu.ca/sca/Manuals/247/midi/Midi.html
Has a very extensive explanations and glosary

If you want ALL SYSEX for XG from YAMAHA (not all are for DKV) try:
http://www.yamaha.co.uk/xg/reading/

And also
http://www.yamahasynth.com/tuto/index.html

It seems to me that if you review this pages, you will find all the 
info needed, except some, specific to the DKV, keep secret by Yamaha 
for reasons only they can understand.



--- In disklavier@yahoogroups.com, "midi_magic2000" 
<magic_midi@h...> wrote:
> Hi
> 
> F0 05 7E 7F 09 01 F7 - Turns on GM, but what is the 2nd Byte 05 
mean?
> 
> The 05 tells it how many bytes are in the sysex command after the 
05.
> 
> This only appears within a MIDI file and is NOT seen in a Yamaha 
Eseq 
> file. Again F0 08 43 10 4C 00 00 7E 00 F7 the 08 mean 8 more bytes 
to 
> follow.  
> It seems toooooooo easy to be true.
> 
> Now F0 05 43 71 05 01 F7   off hand I don't know. What we can say 
is, 
> that it belongs to Yamaha because of the 43.
> The way I learned was to have a play with the bytes. AFTER you 
have 
> made a backup try changing the 01 to 00 or 7F and see what 
happens, 
> or doesn't.
> 
> 
> You see the problem for me is that I do NOT have a DKV but only a 
CVP 
> NOR can I find any E-manuals for the DKVs to download.  I would 
> dearly like to get hold of the Data List book or Midi Book.
> 
> You can clearly read and understand your manual maybe you could 
one 
> day scan it in and send it for me.
> 
> By all means send me the dumb file you have and I'll look at it. 
> Don't, however, expect too much for the reasons above. 
> 
> Midi Magic
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --- In disklavier@yahoogroups.com, "fkagel" <fkagel@f...> wrote:
> > Re: Mark III Series
> >     Recoding own accompaniment to CD
> > 
> > Is there anyone in the group that has dissected the MIDI data 
when 
> > accompanying a CD? The system 'knows' which CD is supposed to be 
in 

> > place and will indicate that the wrong one has been inserted if 
> that 
> > is the case.
> > 
> > I've noted 3 SYSEXs at the beginning:
> > F0 05 7E 7F 09 01 F7 - Turns on GM, but what is the 2nd Byte 05 
> mean?
> > F0 08 43 10 4C 00 00 7E 00 F7 - XG on, but what does 2nd Byte 08 
> mean?
> > F0 05 43 71 05 01 F7 - Don't know???
> > 
> > Where is the MTC or what controls the CD sync? What should I be 
> > looking for in the hex dump?
> > 
> > Between the 2nd and 3rd Sysex, I have a hex dump that someone is 
> > welcomed to look atd. Game, Midimagic?
> > 
> > Fred Kagel

Thanks ! Very good infos !

I  haven't found the DKV sysexes yet, but those links are very
interesting and useful. Looks like a very good upgrade for an old midi
user like me !  ;-))   I did not know the midi standard(s) had evolved
so much in the last ten years.

Jean Debefve


Jorge Fernandez a écrit :

> This issues aren not yamaha but MIDI and MIDI FILE
> try:
> http://www.csw2.co.uk/tech/midi2.htm#BM0_
> For a nice explanation.
>
> Also:
> http://www2.sfu.ca/sca/Manuals/247/midi/Midi.html
> Has a very extensive explanations and glosary
>
> If you want ALL SYSEX for XG from YAMAHA (not all are for DKV) try:
> http://www.yamaha.co.uk/xg/reading/
>
> And also
> http://www.yamahasynth.com/tuto/index.html
>
> It seems to me that if you review this pages, you will find all the
> info needed, except some, specific to the DKV, keep secret by Yamaha
> for reasons only they can understand.
>

> I would guess that the Disklavier identifies the CD based upon the
UPC/EAN code read from the audio CD's table of contents.

Hmmm, interesting!

> > I've noted 3 SYSEXs at the beginning:
> > F0 05 7E 7F 09 01 F7 - Turns on GM, but what is the 2nd Byte 05 
mean?
[snip] 
> The second byte appears to be the length of the message that 
follows, ncluding the terminating F7.

Seems redundant, since F7 terminates.
 
> This size is probably coded as a variable-length quantity (in MIDI
> file lingo) so be prepared for this length to occupy more than one 
byte.

> > Where is the MTC or what controls the CD sync? What should I be
looking for in the hex dump?
> 
> As for the sync, no MIDI-specific time events are required in the 
MIDI file.
> 
> During playback against a CD, the MIDI timing is probably slaved to 
the 44.1 KHz CD sample rate, and MIDI playback is probably set to 
begin at a particular time marker (0:00:00?) in the CD subcode.  This 
only gets tricky when the user skips forward or backwards during 
playback; the playback engine would need to be coded very carefully 
to maintain sync.
> 
> Mark Fontana

The MTC usually does start at 0:00:00, but could also start at some 
other time an. The Pro series has the capability to self-correct the 
syncing as it plays; the lesser DKV series depends on the 'starting 
gun.'Syncing from that point on would be relative and depend on note 
on/note off, duration,tempo.

> This only appears within a MIDI file and is NOT seen in a Yamaha 
Eseq file. Again F0 08 43 10 4C 00 00 7E 00 F7 the 08 mean 8 more 
bytes to follow.  
> It seems toooooooo easy to be true.

I agree --- seems too easy.
 
> Now F0 05 43 71 05 01 F7   off hand I don't know. What we can say 
is, that it belongs to Yamaha because of the 43.

> NOR can I find any E-manuals for the DKVs to download.  I would 
> dearly like to get hold of the Data List book or Midi Book.
> 
You and me both. I have nothing to scan in for you. That is why I am 
posting my questions here.

 
> By all means send me the dumb file you have and I'll look at it. 
> Don't, however, expect too much for the reasons above. 
> 
> Midi Magic
 
I will send you the file. Have fun.
Fred
 
 
 
> --- In disklavier@yahoogroups.com, "fkagel" <fkagel@f...> wrote:
> > Re: Mark III Series
> >     Recoding own accompaniment to CD
> > 
> > Is there anyone in the group that has dissected the MIDI data 
when 
> > accompanying a CD? The system 'knows' which CD is supposed to be 
in 

> > place and will indicate that the wrong one has been inserted if 
> that 
> > is the case.
> > 
> > I've noted 3 SYSEXs at the beginning:
> > F0 05 7E 7F 09 01 F7 - Turns on GM, but what is the 2nd Byte 05 
> mean?
> > F0 08 43 10 4C 00 00 7E 00 F7 - XG on, but what does 2nd Byte 08 
> mean?
> > F0 05 43 71 05 01 F7 - Don't know???
> > 
> > Where is the MTC or what controls the CD sync? What should I be 
> > looking for in the hex dump?
> > 
> > Between the 2nd and 3rd Sysex, I have a hex dump that someone is 
> > welcomed to look atd. Game, Midimagic?
> > 
> > Fred Kagel

--- In disklavier@yahoogroups.com, Freehold Computer Training 
<fkagel@f...> wrote:
> Audio CDs do not have to contain any descriptive info to know the 
difference between Frank Sinatra and Karen Carpenter. This can be and 
is done via CDDB, when connected to Interenet. For albums, track 
names are based on song length, track position, and overall CD 
playing length.

There is a HOWTO on calculating this on the FreeDB site, as well as 
various other bits of information (FreeDB is the free implementation 
of the now commercial CDDB - it uses the same techniques and 
protocols). Perhaps the DKV uses the CDDB technique, but as someone 
else said it could also use other information on the CD such as the 
article number?

The howto is available here - http://www.freedb.org/modules.php?
name=Sections&sop=viewarticle&artid=6

Cheers,

James

I really do think each audio CD has some data identity encoded on it.  For
instance, if you try to make an audio CD using tracks from 2 or 3 different
CDs, your software knows if you put in the correct disk or not when it wants
to copy the chosen tracks to your hard drive.

Also, it says in the PianoSmart manual that it may not work if you use a
"copied" CD along with the PianoSmart floppy, although so far this has
worked for me.  I know that both the Frank Sinatra and Karen Carpenter
PianoSmart floppies work only on specific CDs although these same exact
audio tracks appear on different song collections on different CDs.

From my few experiences in bootlegging audio tracks with Cool Edit, I know
that you can zoom in on any section of an audio track just by watching the
timer clock in the software window.   In other words, if I want the section
of 00.41 to 00.53 of an audio track, all I have to do is type in the numbers
each time I put the CD into the computer drive and it goes to the same place
each time.  That's why it's so easy to record a PianoSmart floppy.  From the
time you press Record, then Play, you are starting at 0.

If you notice when you install the PianoSmart software on the DCD1 (Yamaha
CD player) not only are you updating the software on the control board, but
you are also installing software on the CD player.  That is why there is an
extra MIDI connection.  This sync thing can't be too hard to do as I think
the QRS Chili system now does the same thing.

Why would you want to disect the sysex code when it's so easy to make your
own PianoSmart recordings?  I'm not that musically inclined, but from what
my ears hear on those PianoSmart floppies, all the piano accompaniment
consists of is basic music theory and chord structure with arpeggios!  The
keyboard playing is so basic that I am surprised that it could stand alone
with a copyright.  I'll bet you could use Band in A Box to generate a MIDI
piano accompaniment to just about any song ever recorded on audio CD.  You
could probably do the syncing with a program like Cool Edit from
Syntrillium.

Carol Beigel

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Freehold Computer Training" <fkagel@...>
To: <disklavier@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2004 5:10 PM
Subject: Re: [disklavier] Dissecting Sysex and/or MTC w/ PianoSmart


> Audio CDs do not have to contain any descriptive info to know the
difference between Frank Sinatra and Karen Carpenter. This can be and is
done via CDDB, when connected to Interenet. For albums, track names are
based on song length, track position, and overall CD playing length.
>
>

On Sat, 10 Jan 2004, Freehold Computer Training wrote:
> However, I maintain there need not be anything on a CD to identify the
> 'name' of the track other than Track 1, Track 2, etc. A CD contains .CDA
> files, which essentially are pointers to actual audio on the CD. To
> extract actual track names, see http://www.freedb.org/ or
> http://cddb-py.sourceforge.net/. The audio portion of the CD is
> essentially a WAVe file, and WAVe files are really wrappers containing

Indeed - by creating a hash of the track start/end points it's possible to
(almost) uniquely identify any CD with a relatively small code, and this
is how CDDB/FreeDB works (see the link I posted last week) and is almost
certainly how the DKV does it. The only other way I can think of is to get
the UPC/EAN code from the metadata on the disc itself.

The CDA files don't really exist however - they are something that are
created by Windows to make manipulation of audio cd's easier for software.


> Trying to better understand how the SysEx and MTC control the CD with
> PianoSmart vs. simply creating PianoSmart floppies on my own (actually
> my wife does the serious playing) is not mutually exclusive. I am still
> trying to figure out what is on the PianoSmart floppy to ID the CD. I
> will be sending my files to MidiMagic and any other interested parties,
> as time permits, to see if they can decipher this.

I'd be interested in seeing this, but it will probably depend on the exact
version of the CD being used (different markets have different pressings
etc) - eg we may need your CD in order to identify what exactly is going
on.

I can understand why Yamaha might not want to release this information -
they are probably worried about a whole load of substandard material being
released for the instrument, or that they are going to lose on sales. It
is a shame that we haven't been able to find the information yet - it
would add so many creative possibilities to the instrument - imagine being
able to make a pianosmart recording of a soloist and pianist, or of an
orchestra and concert pianist!

Unfortunately I've had to flash my MPX1Z back to the older firmware; when
I update to the PianoSmart software I am unable to play back a couple of
my favourite disks (older Clavinova DOC disks). They playback ok, but all
the sounds are wrong, so bass comes out on a guitar sound, and drums on
something else etc. Not sure really what's going on there - anyone got any
ideas? I have a late MarkIIXG MPX1Z with a DKC500RW control unit.


Regards,

James

James,

I to have have a late MarkIIXG / DKC500RW combo and performed the 
flash update in December 2003.  I haven't noticed any problems (yet) 
when playing back any of my Yamaha disks, however, I do not have any 
older disks such as the Clavinova DOC disks you mentioned.

Out of curosity, how did you acquire the older firmware to flash 
back to the previous version?

Regards,

Robert

--- In disklavier@yahoogroups.com, James Fry <groups@j...> wrote:
 
Unfortunately I've had to flash my MPX1Z back to the older firmware; 
when I update to the PianoSmart software I am unable to play back a 
couple of my favourite disks (older Clavinova DOC disks). They 
playback ok, but all the sounds are wrong, so bass comes out on a 
guitar sound, and drums on something else etc. Not sure really 
what's going on there - anyone got any ideas? I have a late MarkIIXG 
MPX1Z with a DKC500RW control unit.
 
 
Regards,
 
James

On Sun, 11 Jan 2004, rrl_edm wrote:
> I to have have a late MarkIIXG / DKC500RW combo and performed the
> flash update in December 2003.  I haven't noticed any problems (yet)
> when playing back any of my Yamaha disks, however, I do not have any
> older disks such as the Clavinova DOC disks you mentioned.
> Out of curosity, how did you acquire the older firmware to flash
> back to the previous version?

I got it from two independent sources - the Yamaha site that is linked
from in Carol's pianosmart guide, and also from Bill Brandom
(bbrandom@...) who emailed me when I first said I was having
problems. I can email you the files he sent, but they were the same as the
ones on the website.

I _think_ I had problems playing back normal general midi files too, but
I'm not sure, I would have to check again after performing the upgrade.
PianoSmart appeared to work fine though with the title I bought from the
Yamaha website (except I had to buy a different copy of the CD for the
disk I bought - mine had a "bonus track" on it which confused things).

Regards,

James

Thanks for the reply James.

Since I performed the flash ROM update from V3.06 to v3.08 I have 
not had any probelms with PianoSoft disks, PianoSoft Plus disks, 
PianoSoft Plus XG disks and various General Midi files.  I play MIDI 
files either from my laptop into the DKC500RW "host" port or 
sometimes use the 3.5" disk drive on the DKC500RW control unit. 
Typically, I convert MIDI files from GM to XG format and use a fair 
bit of SYSEX messages for processing the ensemble parts, etc.  So 
far so good.

My current DKV set up does not allow me to play the newer PainoSoft 
formats (Plus Audio, Smart, etc.)

Robert LeBlanc

--- In disklavier@yahoogroups.com, James Fry <groups@j...> wrote:
On Sun, 11 Jan 2004, rrl_edm wrote:
>>I to have have a late MarkIIXG / DKC500RW combo and performed the
>>flash update in December 2003.  I haven't noticed any problems
>>(yet)when playing back any of my Yamaha disks, however, I do not 
>> have any older disks such as the Clavinova DOC disks you
>> mentioned. Out of curosity, how did you acquire the older
>> firmware to flashback to the previous version?

I got it from two independent sources - the Yamaha site that is 
linked from in Carol's pianosmart guide, and also from Bill Brandom
(bbrandom@y...) who emailed me when I first said I was having
problems. I can email you the files he sent, but they were the same 
as the ones on the website.
 
I _think_ I had problems playing back normal general midi files too, 
but I'm not sure, I would have to check again after performing the 
upgrade.

PianoSmart appeared to work fine though with the title I bought from 
the Yamaha website (except I had to buy a different copy of the CD 
for the disk I bought - mine had a "bonus track" on it which 
confused things).

Regards,

James

On Sun, 11 Jan 2004, rrl_edm wrote:
> Since I performed the flash ROM update from V3.06 to v3.08 I have
> not had any probelms with PianoSoft disks, PianoSoft Plus disks,
> PianoSoft Plus XG disks and various General Midi files.  I play MIDI
> files either from my laptop into the DKC500RW "host" port or
> sometimes use the 3.5" disk drive on the DKC500RW control unit.
> Typically, I convert MIDI files from GM to XG format and use a fair
> bit of SYSEX messages for processing the ensemble parts, etc.  So
> far so good.
>
> My current DKV set up does not allow me to play the newer PainoSoft
> formats (Plus Audio, Smart, etc.)

Yeah, the 3.08 software works a treat - its the 3.5(I think) update for
PianoSmart that caused me problems. I'll give it another go and try some
more exhaustive tests to find out exactly what doesn't work in addition
to the DOC disks (if anything). I might be able to massage the files into
something else using a sequencer package on the PC and get a new disk of
files that way. PianoSmart did appear to work at least, and my normal
PianoSoft / PS Plus / PS + Audio disks.

Cheers,

James

On Sun, 18 Jan 2004, Freehold Computer Training wrote:
> James,
> You will NOT need my CD. Burn ANY audio CD, even from MP3s. Use
> PianoSmart to record to floppy OR memory disk. Play back and observe
> what happens if you change the CD. The system 'knows' there is a
> DIFFERENT CD. No UPC/EAN since these not original CDs. I believe that
> even blank CDRs prior to burning have some identifier on the media (pre
> DRM debacle)! I doubt that Yamaha uses any algorithm similar to CDDB or
> Free DB. Bottom line: something is written to the floppy and that
> something is an identifier coming from the CD. The question in my mind
> is deciphering the identifier on the floppy as it relates to the CD. I
> am using FXEdit to read the MIDI data on the floppy.
>
> Fred

I think you missed my point - different areas of the world have slightly
different versions of commercial CD's. If I get a pianosmart disk that was
designed for the USA release of some CD, if I buy a European edition there
is a possibility that the tracks will be slightly different mixes, or have
a bonus track which screws up the algorithm. If you record a CD, unless I
have an exact copy of it here, I'm not going to be able to play around
with generating the hash/identifier/code myself from the CD and comparing
it with that present in the pianosmart file. Yamaha WILL use an algorithm
similar to CDDB - there is no other sensible way of doing it - but
deciphering exactly what the algorithm is may take some time

I'll take your word for the UPC/EAN code being ignored - not having a
working pianosmart system means that I'm unable to test with home recorded
CD's. Blank CDR's do have an identifier on them which describes the
manufacturer, write speed, dye type, manufacture date, etc., but I don't
believe there is a serial number present in any form. In any case, this
would be different from that present on a commercial CD.

If you were to make an exact copy of a pressed CD that had been used for a
pianosmart recording, what would happen when you played the copy? I would
expect the piano to not know the difference. Note this would have to be an
exact copy, with each track exactly the same number of sectors in length
etc.

Regards,

James

I have copied both the original audio CD as well as the
companion PianoSmart floppy disk on my computer, and
they both work on all the DKVs I have tried them.
Although I have not tried the following experiment, I
really think it will work - I plan to take some MIDI
file, render it to a wave file and "burn" it to a CDR,
then record a PianoSmart accompaniment to a floppy
disk.  I expect it will work just fine.  As I have said
before, this is not all that hard.  Audio CDs have
track identifiers with digital readouts of the exact
times they appear on the CD.  PianoSmart uses the MTC
(MIDI time code).  When you put a CD into the Yamaha CD
player, then put in ANY floppy disk into the DKV with
PianoSmart, it will try to register the floppy with the
CD.

I once copied a software program CD and used the
holographic numbers near the hole for the "key" and it
worked!

What does NOT work with PianoSmart are audio CDs with
copy protection schemes on them.

Carol Beigel


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "James Fry" <groups@...>
To: "Disklavier Group" <disklavier@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 18, 2004 10:17 PM
Subject: Re: [disklavier] Dissecting Sysex and/or MTC
w/ PianoSmart


> On Sun, 18 Jan 2004, Freehold Computer Training
wrote:
> > James,
> > You will NOT need my CD. Burn ANY audio CD, even
from MP3s. Use
> > PianoSmart to record to floppy OR memory disk. Play
back and observe
> > what happens if you change the CD. The system
'knows' there is a
> > DIFFERENT CD. No UPC/EAN since these not original
CDs. I believe that
> > even blank CDRs prior to burning have some
identifier on the media (pre
> > DRM debacle)! I doubt that Yamaha uses any
algorithm similar to CDDB or
> > Free DB. Bottom line: something is written to the
floppy and that
> > something is an identifier coming from the CD. The
question in my mind
> > is deciphering the identifier on the floppy as it
relates to the CD. I
> > am using FXEdit to read the MIDI data on the
floppy.
> >
> > Fred
>
> If you were to make an exact copy of a pressed CD
that had been used for a
> pianosmart recording, what would happen when you
played the copy? I would
> expect the piano to not know the difference. Note
this would have to be an
> exact copy, with each track exactly the same number
of sectors in length

> etc.
>
> Regards,
>
> James
>

Hi Fred

To help prove the CD point you could convert the audio from the 
ORIGINAL to mp3s then burn a NEW cd from the MP3s and see if the DKV 
throws it out.

I have looked at the two files on the disk Pdisk.mng and Psong.mng 
both of these look normal.
Have you tried copying the Piano001 & Piano002 files to a fresh 
floppy? Try that, first WITHOUT the two mng manager files.

Just a thought.  My DVD player knows the last 15 or so DVDs I have 
played and this must be stored in ram somewhere. Could the DKV be 
doing the same thing storing the CD contents and the floppy's ID to 
ram.
Of course every floppy has an ID number this can be changed with 
FXedit. Try that, change the floppy's ID and see what happens.

I do not own a DKV only a CVP this end so I can not play with me 
ideas.

Midi Magic 



--- In disklavier@yahoogroups.com, James Fry <groups@j...> wrote:
> On Sun, 18 Jan 2004, Freehold Computer Training wrote:
> > James,
> > You will NOT need my CD. Burn ANY audio CD, even from MP3s. Use
> > PianoSmart to record to floppy OR memory disk. Play back and 
observe
> > what happens if you change the CD. The system 'knows' there is a
> > DIFFERENT CD. No UPC/EAN since these not original CDs. I believe 
that
> > even blank CDRs prior to burning have some identifier on the 
media (pre
> > DRM debacle)! I doubt that Yamaha uses any algorithm similar to 
CDDB or
> > Free DB. Bottom line: something is written to the floppy and that
> > something is an identifier coming from the CD. The question in my 
mind
> > is deciphering the identifier on the floppy as it relates to the 
CD. I
> > am using FXEdit to read the MIDI data on the floppy.
> >
> > Fred
> 
> I think you missed my point - different areas of the world have 
slightly
> different versions of commercial CD's. If I get a pianosmart disk 
that was
> designed for the USA release of some CD, if I buy a European 
edition there
> is a possibility that the tracks will be slightly different mixes, 
or have
> a bonus track which screws up the algorithm. If you record a CD, 
unless I
> have an exact copy of it here, I'm not going to be able to play 
around
> with generating the hash/identifier/code myself from the CD and 
comparing
> it with that present in the pianosmart file. Yamaha WILL use an 
algorithm
> similar to CDDB - there is no other sensible way of doing it - but
> deciphering exactly what the algorithm is may take some time
> 
> I'll take your word for the UPC/EAN code being ignored - not having 
a
> working pianosmart system means that I'm unable to test with home 
recorded
> CD's. Blank CDR's do have an identifier on them which describes the
> manufacturer, write speed, dye type, manufacture date, etc., but I 
don't
> believe there is a serial number present in any form. In any case, 
this
> would be different from that present on a commercial CD.
> 
> If you were to make an exact copy of a pressed CD that had been 
used for a
> pianosmart recording, what would happen when you played the copy? I 
would
> expect the piano to not know the difference. Note this would have 
to be an
> exact copy, with each track exactly the same number of sectors in 
length

> etc.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> James

Hi Fred

To help prove the CD point you could convert the audio from the
ORIGINAL to mp3s then burn a NEW cd from the MP3s and see if the DKV
throws it out.

FK: Carol Beigel already copied a CD (see group post) and I have made a CD from MP3s with the same result: "Different CD" requested.

I have looked at the two files on the disk Pdisk.mng and Psong.mng
both of these look normal.

FK: Agree. I fact, I've deleted them and the DKV still complains.

Have you tried copying the Piano001 & Piano002 files to a fresh
floppy? Try that, first WITHOUT the two mng manager files.

FK: Good idea.

Just a thought. My DVD player knows the last 15 or so DVDs I have
played and this must be stored in ram somewhere. Could the DKV be
doing the same thing storing the CD contents and the floppy's ID to
ram.

FK: Hmmm.

Of course every floppy has an ID number this can be changed with
FXedit. Try that, change the floppy's ID and see what happens.

FK: Let me copy the files to another floppy first.

I do not own a DKV only a CVP this end so I can not play with me
ideas.

Midi Magic



--- In disklavier@yahoogroups.com, James Fry wrote:
> On Sun, 18 Jan 2004, Freehold Computer Training wrote:
> > James,
> > You will NOT need my CD. Burn ANY audio CD, even from MP3s. Use
> > PianoSmart to record to floppy OR memory disk. Play back and
observe
> > what happens if you change the CD. The system 'knows' there is a
> > DIFFERENT CD. No UPC/EAN since these not original CDs. I believe
that
> > even blank CDRs prior to burning have some identifier on the
media (pre
> > DRM debacle)! I doubt that Yamaha uses any algorithm similar to
CDDB or
> > Free DB. Bottom line: something is written to the floppy and that
> > something is an identifier coming from the CD. The question in my
mind
> > is deciphering the identifier on the floppy as it relates to the
CD. I
> > am using FXEdit to read the MIDI data on the floppy.
> >
> > Fred
>
> I think you missed my point - different areas of the world have
slightly
> different versions of commercial CD's. If I get a pianosmart disk
that was
> designed for the USA release of some CD, if I buy a European
edition there
> is a possibility that the tracks will be slightly different mixes,
or have
> a bonus track which screws up the algorithm. If you record a CD,
unless I
> have an exact copy of it here, I'm not going to be able to play
around
> with generating the hash/identifier/code myself from the CD and
comparing
> it with that present in the pianosmart file. Yamaha WILL use an
algorithm
> similar to CDDB - there is no other sensible way of doing it - but
> deciphering exactly what the algorithm is may take some time
>
> I'll take your word for the UPC/EAN code being ignored - not having
a
> working pianosmart system means that I'm unable to test with home
recorded
> CD's. Blank CDR's do have an identifier on them which describes the
> manufacturer, write speed, dye type, manufacture date, etc., but I
don't
> believe there is a serial number present in any form. In any case,
this
> would be different from that present on a commercial CD.
>
> If you were to make an exact copy of a pressed CD that had been
used for a
> pianosmart recording, what would happen when you played the copy? I
would
> expect the piano to not know the difference. Note this would have
to be an
> exact copy, with each track exactly the same number of sectors in
length
> etc.
>
> Regards,
>
> James