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Thread

MIDI editting tool to convert on/off to gradual pedaling?

2009-04-14 by kgoroway

I'm pretty sure that I've seen mention of a tool that will convert MIDI files from on/off pedaling to gradual (or continuous).  Of course, it won't magically insert more pedaling expression, but it could make the transitions a little smoother.  I'm imagining something that would convert a pedal on from an instantaneous transition from 0 to 127 into a very fast transition from 0 to, say, 110 and then a slowing transition as it approaches 127.  Also, I'd like the ability to convert the minimum pedal value from 0 to something like 10 or so.

What I'm trying to avoid is the "thumping" that some songs have when the solenoid is forced to go swinging back and forth between 0 and 127 so rapidly.  Does something like this exist?

Thanks.

-Kevin

Re: [disklavier] MIDI editting tool to convert on/off to gradual pedaling?

2009-04-17 by Phil Blah

Hey Kevin,

It's funny as I noticed MIDI files recorded with the MK4 have the pedal very strange. Using Cakewalk on a normal midi file the pedal symbol is there when depressed once or so in a bar... but with a MK4 MIDI file within cakewalk there are like 50 of these symbols all mashed together in one bar if the pedal is used.

So I think they do it in a rather clumsy way to get a gradual effect for each pedal data in the MIDI file... perhaps it's actually clever!

But anyway, its true with some songs they just have the pedal data on or off and it can be a bit too dramatic.. I guess that does not answer you question lol.

Cheers,
Philip

Show quoted textHide quoted text

From: kgoroway <;kgoroway@...>
To: disklavier@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, 14 April, 2009 10:09:57 PM
Subject: [disklavier] MIDI editting tool to convert on/off to gradual pedaling?

I'm pretty sure that I've seen mention of a tool that will convert MIDI files from on/off pedaling to gradual (or continuous). Of course, it won't magically insert more pedaling expression, but it could make the transitions a little smoother. I'm imagining something that would convert a pedal on from an instantaneous transition from 0 to 127 into a very fast transition from 0 to, say, 110 and then a slowing transition as it approaches 127. Also, I'd like the ability to convert the minimum pedal value from 0 to something like 10 or so.

What I'm trying to avoid is the "thumping" that some songs have when the solenoid is forced to go swinging back and forth between 0 and 127 so rapidly. Does something like this exist?

Thanks.

-Kevin

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Re: [disklavier] MIDI editting tool to convert on/off to gradual pedaling?

2009-04-17 by Kevin Goroway

I think this reflects cakewalk's representation more than it represents yamaha's cleverness.

Yamaha supports different "degrees" of the pedal being down.  Cakewalk likes to represent it with a single arrow.

Anyway...back to my question...I was pretty sure that Spencer would have a utility like this.  Anyone?

Thanks again.
-Kevin




________________________________

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From: Phil Blah <phil.blah@...>
To: disklavier@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, April 17, 2009 12:13:58 AM
Subject: Re: [disklavier] MIDI editting tool to convert on/off to gradual pedaling?

Hey Kevin,

It's funny as I noticed MIDI files recorded with the MK4 have the pedal very strange. Using Cakewalk on a normal midi file the pedal symbol is there when depressed once or so in a bar... but with a MK4 MIDI file within cakewalk there are like 50 of these symbols all mashed together in one bar if the pedal is used.

So I think they do it in a rather clumsy way to get a gradual effect for each pedal data in the MIDI file... perhaps it's actually clever!

But anyway, its true with some songs they just have the pedal data on or off and it can be a bit too dramatic.. I guess that does not answer you question lol.

Cheers,
Philip 

________________________________
From: kgoroway <kgoroway@yahoo. com>
To: disklavier@yahoogro ups.com
Sent: Tuesday, 14 April, 2009 10:09:57 PM
Subject: [disklavier] MIDI editting tool to convert on/off to gradual pedaling?

I'm pretty sure that I've seen mention of a tool that will convert MIDI files from on/off pedaling to gradual (or continuous).  Of course, it won't magically insert more pedaling expression, but it could make the transitions a little smoother.  I'm imagining something that would convert a pedal on from an instantaneous transition from 0 to 127 into a very fast transition from 0 to, say, 110 and then a slowing transition as it approaches 127.  Also, I'd like the ability to convert the minimum pedal value from 0 to something like 10 or so.

What I'm trying to avoid is the "thumping" that some songs have when the solenoid is forced to go swinging back and forth between 0 and 127 so rapidly.  Does something like this exist?

Thanks.

-Kevin

________________________________
 Yahoo!7 recommends that you update your browser to the new Internet Explorer 8. Get it now..

Re: [disklavier] MIDI editting tool to convert on/off to gradual pedaling?

2009-04-17 by athomik

The Mark IV uses a linear encoder to obtain pedal information, which means that every time the pedal sensor passes another mark on the encoder, it will generate a message to tell the processor where the pedal is. This means that every time the processor receives another position message, it will generate a corresponding MIDI message. On playback on a Disklavier, this gives you the half-pedalling effect, on an electronic keyboard, it generates a lot of unecessary information.

athomik

On Apr 17 2009, Phil Blah wrote:

>Hey Kevin,
>
>It's funny as I noticed MIDI files recorded with the MK4 have the pedal very strange. Using Cakewalk on a normal midi file the pedal symbol is there when depressed once or so in a bar... but with a MK4 MIDI file within cakewalk there are like 50 of these symbols all mashed together in one bar if the pedal is used.
>
>So I think they do it in a rather clumsy way to get a gradual effect for each pedal data in the MIDI file... perhaps it's actually clever!
>
>But anyway, its true with some songs they just have the pedal data on or off and it can be a bit too dramatic.. I guess that does not answer you question lol.
>
>Cheers,
>Philip

Re: [disklavier] MIDI editting tool to convert on/off to gradual pedaling?

2009-04-17 by George F. Litterst

Good morning, everyone.

On Apr 17, 2009, at 9:10 AM, athomik wrote:

> The Mark IV uses a linear encoder to obtain pedal information, which  
> means that every time the pedal sensor passes another mark on the  
> encoder, it will generate a message to tell the processor where the  
> pedal is. This means that every time the processor receives another  
> position message, it will generate a corresponding MIDI message. On  
> playback on a Disklavier, this gives you the half-pedalling effect,  
> on an electronic keyboard, it generates a lot of unecessary  
> information.

It is true that there are digital pianos, portable keyboards, and  
other tone generators that do not understand incremental pedal data  
(i.e. incremental values for controllers 67--soft pedal--and 64-- 
sustain pedal). In particular, files with incremental pedaling may  
sound blurry on these systems if the performer tended to avoid lifting  
the pedal all the way up when pedaling.

It should be noted, however, that high-end digital pianos and some  
soft synths do recognize incremental pedaling. For example, Yamaha's  
Clavinovas and new Avant Grand do generate and respond to this data.

Regards,
PianoBench

George F. Litterst
www.georgelitterst.com
www.timewarptech.com
3 Lorimar Lane
Rehoboth, MA 02769-1746
(508) 252-7216 Skype
(508) 252-1074 office
(508) 252-1076 fax
(401) 714-2822 mobile

Re[2]: [disklavier] MIDI editting tool to convert on/off to gradual pedaling?

2009-04-17 by Spencer_Lists

Greetings athomik,

I have utility for converting proportional pedaling to on / off pedaling, not the reverse. I also have an option in MidiMod2 to set the max and min pedal levels. This can prevent clunking on a badly regulated DKV but the right solution really is to adjust it properly.

Writing a program to convert on off to gradual pedaling is somewhat more complicated than going the other way. Each piano will have the rush point of the dampers a little different and this is the point around which the gradual pedaling has to be centered. Other than the actuation delay, the pedal on controller in a MIDI file is at the time when the dampers are supposed to lift. If you are going to approach this point gradually, you need to know at what point (brush point) the dampers actually clear the strings and hopefully the piano is well enough regulated that this is the same for all strings.

The Live Performanc LX converts on/off pedaling to gradual on the fly and by doing so minimizes pedal noise to an absolute minimum. As a challenge I am thinking of writing a program to do this. It will require the user to set a few parameters so I will probably make it a graphical program.

If there is sufficient interest I will make this a priority otherwise it may be a while. I plan to get the basics working today but it might be a lot more complicated than I am guessing. I am not aware of any other program that does this.

Friday, April 17, 2009, 6:10:41 AM, you wrote:

athomik

On Apr 17 2009, Phil Blah wrote:

>Hey Kevin,

>It's funny as I noticed MIDI files recorded with the MK4 have the pedal very strange. Using Cakewalk on a normal midi file the pedal symbol is there when depressed once or so in a bar... but with a MK4 MIDI file within cakewalk there are like 50 of these symbols all mashed together in one bar if the pedal is used.

>So I think they do it in a rather clumsy way to get a gradual effect for each pedal data in the MIDI file... perhaps it's actually clever!

>But anyway, its true with some songs they just have the pedal data on or off and it can be a bit too dramatic.. I guess that does not answer you question lol.

>Cheers,

>Philip

Best regards,

Spencer_Lists Chase mailto:lists@...

67550 Bell Springs Rd.

Garberville, CA 95542 Postal service only.

Laytonville, CA 95454 UPS only.

Lists@spencerserolls(dot)com

http://www(dot)spencerserolls.com

replace (dot) with a .

(707) 984-8356

Re: Re[2]: [disklavier] MIDI editting tool to convert on/off to gradual pedaling?

2009-04-18 by Kevin Goroway

Since I'm the one who asked for this in the first place, I'd be happy to test it out for you...

Furthermore, if you'd like to share the source code with me, I can also assist.

Thanks in advance...looking forward to this tool!

-Kevin




________________________________

Show quoted textHide quoted text

From: Spencer_Lists <lists@...>
To: athomik <disklavier@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, April 17, 2009 12:12:46 PM
Subject: Re[2]: [disklavier] MIDI editting tool to convert on/off to gradual pedaling?

Greetings athomik,

I have utility for converting proportional  pedaling to on / off pedaling, not the reverse. I also have an option in MidiMod2 to set the max and min pedal levels. This can prevent clunking on a badly regulated DKV but the right solution really is to adjust it properly.

Writing a program to convert on off to gradual pedaling is somewhat more complicated than going the other way. Each piano will have the rush point of the dampers a little different and this is the point around which the gradual pedaling has to be centered. Other than the actuation delay, the pedal on controller in a MIDI file is at the time when the dampers are supposed to lift. If you are going to approach this point gradually, you need  to know at what point (brush point) the dampers actually clear the strings and hopefully the piano is well enough regulated that this is the same for all strings.

The Live Performanc LX converts on/off pedaling to gradual on the fly and by doing so minimizes pedal noise to an absolute minimum. As a challenge I am thinking of writing a program to do this. It will require the user to set a few parameters so I will probably make it a graphical program. 

If there is sufficient interest I will make this a priority otherwise it may be a while. I plan to get the basics working today but it might be a lot more complicated than I am guessing. I am not aware of any other program that does this.

Friday, April 17, 2009, 6:10:41 AM, you wrote:

The Mark IV uses a linear encoder to obtain pedal information, which means that every time the pedal sensor passes another mark on the encoder, it will generate a message to tell the processor where the pedal is. This means that every time the processor receives another position message, it will generate a corresponding MIDI message. On playback on a Disklavier, this gives you the half-pedalling effect, on an electronic keyboard, it generates a lot of unecessary information. 

athomik

On Apr 17 2009, Phil Blah wrote: 

>Hey Kevin,
>
>It's funny as I noticed MIDI files recorded with the MK4 have the pedal very strange. Using Cakewalk on a normal midi file the pedal symbol is there when depressed once or so in a bar... but with a MK4 MIDI file within cakewalk there are like 50 of these symbols all mashed together in one bar if the pedal is used.
>
>So I think they do it in a rather clumsy way to get a gradual effect for each pedal data in the MIDI file... perhaps it's actually clever!
>
>But anyway, its true with some songs they just have the pedal data on or off and it can be a bit too dramatic.. I guess that does not answer you question lol.
>
>Cheers,
>Philip 

-- 
Best regards,
Spencer_Lists Chase        mailto:lists@ spencerserolls. com
67550 Bell Springs Rd.
Garberville,  CA 95542    Postal service only.
Laytonville, CA 95454    UPS only.
Lists@spencerseroll s(dot)com
http://www(dot)spencerserolls .com 
replace (dot) with a .
(707) 984-8356

Re: Re[2]: [disklavier] MIDI editting tool to convert on/off to gradual pedaling?

2009-04-20 by Kevin Goroway

With much thanks and appreciation to Spencer, I'm happy to provide a link to his hard work:

http://www.spencerserolls.com/On_off-gradual_pedalingTK_test3.zip

(beware that yahoo groups likes to add spaces to url's sometimes)

I've used this program with great success to convert on-off pedal midi files to gradual pedaling.  All of the thumping is gone in these converted files.  

I hope more of you find this useful!

-Kevin




________________________________

Show quoted textHide quoted text

From: Spencer_Lists <lists@...>
To: athomik <disklavier@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, April 17, 2009 12:12:46 PM
Subject: Re[2]: [disklavier] MIDI editting tool to convert on/off to gradual pedaling?

Greetings athomik,

I have utility for converting proportional  pedaling to on / off pedaling, not the reverse. I also have an option in MidiMod2 to set the max and min pedal levels. This can prevent clunking on a badly regulated DKV but the right solution really is to adjust it properly.

Writing a program to convert on off to gradual pedaling is somewhat more complicated than going the other way. Each piano will have the rush point of the dampers a little different and this is the point around which the gradual pedaling has to be centered. Other than the actuation delay, the pedal on controller in a MIDI file is at the time when the dampers are supposed to lift. If you are going to approach this point gradually, you need  to know at what point (brush point) the dampers actually clear the strings and hopefully the piano is well enough regulated that this is the same for all strings.

The Live Performanc LX converts on/off pedaling to gradual on the fly and by doing so minimizes pedal noise to an absolute minimum. As a challenge I am thinking of writing a program to do this. It will require the user to set a few parameters so I will probably make it a graphical program. 

If there is sufficient interest I will make this a priority otherwise it may be a while. I plan to get the basics working today but it might be a lot more complicated than I am guessing. I am not aware of any other program that does this.

Friday, April 17, 2009, 6:10:41 AM, you wrote:

The Mark IV uses a linear encoder to obtain pedal information, which means that every time the pedal sensor passes another mark on the encoder, it will generate a message to tell the processor where the pedal is. This means that every time the processor receives another position message, it will generate a corresponding MIDI message. On playback on a Disklavier, this gives you the half-pedalling effect, on an electronic keyboard, it generates a lot of unecessary information. 

athomik

On Apr 17 2009, Phil Blah wrote: 

>Hey Kevin,
>
>It's funny as I noticed MIDI files recorded with the MK4 have the pedal very strange. Using Cakewalk on a normal midi file the pedal symbol is there when depressed once or so in a bar... but with a MK4 MIDI file within cakewalk there are like 50 of these symbols all mashed together in one bar if the pedal is used.
>
>So I think they do it in a rather clumsy way to get a gradual effect for each pedal data in the MIDI file... perhaps it's actually clever!
>
>But anyway, its true with some songs they just have the pedal data on or off and it can be a bit too dramatic.. I guess that does not answer you question lol.
>
>Cheers,
>Philip 

-- 
Best regards,
Spencer_Lists Chase        mailto:lists@ spencerserolls. com
67550 Bell Springs Rd.
Garberville,  CA 95542    Postal service only.
Laytonville, CA 95454    UPS only.
Lists@spencerseroll s(dot)com
http://www(dot)spencerserolls .com 
replace (dot) with a .
(707) 984-8356

A question

2009-04-25 by Jeff Kovitz

I have a smart pianosoft diskette and cd.
If I want to copy a couple of tracks from the Diskette and CD onto the piano and use the Browser to control it, can I ?  If so where do I put them as they have the same names albeit different data types.    Can I convert the CD track to a wave and still have the Piano run them together ?  Can I copy the diskette on and leave the CD in the drive (second choice).

Re: A question

2009-04-25 by jheitzeb1

If this is a DKVBrowser question it is probably best addressed over on the DKVBrowser forum.  However, you could use the pda to do what I would think would work as well, so I'll post my response here.

Jeff,  if I read this right you are trying to copy a partial CD and diskette to your hard drive on a Mark IV.   You probably have to copy the entire disk to your 'pianosoft' library and the CD will I believe automatically copy all files to the 'CD library'.   But I believe you could go back and delete all the tracks you do not want and the disklavier should work fine in playing only those tracks.  They would have to have the same album names in order to sync together.  I haven't tested this, but would be easy enough for you to test out.

Another thing you could do is to use the song options view on DKVBrowser or on your pda to check the 'skip' option for the tracks that you wish to 'skip', but this would mean keeping the songs from CD in the CD library (I believe) which would take up a considerable amount of disk space.

You can also keep the CD in the CD drive, and again would be easy enough to test that theory as well.  

Hope this helps,
Joan


 --- In disklavier@yahoogroups.com, Jeff Kovitz <jeff.kovitz@...> wrote:

Show quoted textHide quoted text

>
> I have a smart pianosoft diskette and cd.
> If I want to copy a couple of tracks from the Diskette and CD onto the piano and use the Browser to control it, can I ?  If so where do I put them as they have the same names albeit different data types.    Can I convert the CD track to a wave and still have the Piano run them together ?  Can I copy the diskette on and leave the CD in the drive (second choice).
>