Elektron Musical Instruments

Well, I thought the numbers sounded a BIT high, but I didn't really have 
the time to test it at the moment, so I didn't want to say anything 
about them until I had made the tests myself... =)

Anyway, the conclusion still stands. It is seriously odd that the 
internal timing is worse than the midi timing...

/Patrik

Scott skrev:
> 
> 
> Correction to my last post below: my numbers are WRONG. I used an 
> incorrect conversion method.
> 
> These should be the correct time data points from my MD tests:
> 
> MD triggering itself (MAXIMUM): 97 samples ~= 2.2 ms
> MD triggering itself (AVERAGE): 64.428 samples ~= 1.461 ms
> MD triggering MC-80 (MAXIMUM): 90 samples ~= 2.041ms
> MD triggering MC-80 (AVERAGE): 30.533 samples ~= 0.692 ms
> MD triggering Nord (MAXIMUM): 64 samples ~= 1.451 ms
> MD triggering Nord (AVERAGE): 20.333 samples ~= 0.461 ms
> 
> Here is the formula I used:
> 
> T_deviation (sec) = Sample_deviation (samples) / Sampling_frequency (Hz)
> 
> So for the max deviation, for example:
> 
> T_deviation (sec) = unknown
> Sample_deviation (samples) = 97 samples (as measured in Sound Forge 6)
> Sampling_frequency = 44100 (file recorded at 44.1kHz)
> 
> Therefore, T_deviation = 97/44100 = 0.0022 seconds = 2.2 milliseconds
> 
> I also double-checked this conversion in Sound Forge (even though Sound 
> Forge truncates after the thousandths decical place in the time display) 
> and it checks out OK.
> 
> Therefore, I should change my statment of the MD triggering external 
> MIDI devices: I think the average deviation between quarter notes is 
> minimal if the external MIDI device has a tight internal engine, because 
> a half-milli-second of "slop" is below the human hearing threshold. 
> However - the maximum deviation of 2.2 ms of the internal MD engine is 
> definitely within the realm (although definitely at the hairy edge) of 
> human perception limits.
> 
> However, all of this does not cover a more realistic scenario where the 
> MD is playing multiple MIDI notes over one MIDI cable simultaneously, or 
> playing multiple sounds internally. Whether or not I feel like going and 
> doing those sorts of measurements... not really. That's not really my 
> job. ;-) Though I hope someone out there is taking this as seriously as 
> I am!
> 
> Sorry for any confusion caused by my initial message.
> Scott
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Scott
> To: elektron-users@yahoogroups.com 
> <mailto:elektron-users%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Monday, April 16, 2007 11:43 PM
> Subject: Re: [elektron] timing
> 
> Exactly. You would think that would be the case, but things are not what 
> they always seem sometimes.
> 
> The disenchanting part is that the timing gets better when using the MD 
> to trigger other devices over MIDI. This suggests, as I mentioned, that 
> the slop is not only due to some random bug in Elektron's sequencer 
> code, but it's also due to the internal synthesis engine of the MD. This 
> leads me to speculate this could be an impossible situation to improve 
> to a level where it would match devices like my MC-80 or Dave's MPC.
> 
> Here are some more interesting numbers. Instead of looking at "maximum 
> deviation" of samples between quarter notes, consider the average deviation:
> 
> MD triggering itself: 56.375 samples ~= 19 ms
> MD triggering MC-80: 30.533 samples ~= 10.5 ms
> MD triggering Nord: 20.333 samples ~= 7 ms
> 
> Ironically enough, I recall setting my "MIDI offset" in Ableton Live to 
> right around 19ms when I had Live synced to the MD.
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Patrik Rydberg
> To: elektron-users@yahoogroups.com 
> <mailto:elektron-users%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Monday, April 16, 2007 3:37 AM
> Subject: Re: [elektron] timing
> 
> Scott skrev:
>  >
>  >
>  > MD original triggering its own internal rimshot: 97 samples / 33ms (once
>  > every 4 measures)
>  > MD triggering the MC-80 rimshot: 90 samples / 31ms (once every 4 
> measures)
>  > MD triggering the Nord pulse: 64 samples / 22ms (once every 4 measures)
>  >
> 
> Interresting...
> 
>  > Returning to the MD, however, reexamining the numbers:
>  >
>  > 33ms internal MD sound
>  > 31ms external MC-80 sound
>  > 22ms external Nord sound
>  >
>  > It seems there could be as much as 33% of the MD's overall timing slop
>  > could be due to the synth/sample playback engine, whereas the remaining
>  > 67% could be due to the sequencing engine. This is by no means an
>  > exhaustive scientific study, however, a preliminary one whose results
>  > are a bit intriguing...
> 
> Well, the way I see it, if the Machinedrum is running on internal clock,
> triggering its own sample engine from its own sequencer, the timing has
> every possibility to be very accurate, not just as good as triggering
> external synths via midi. Using MIDI, you have all the problems with the
> midi protocol. Internally, between the MD sequencer and synth engine,
> why use midi? Compare the situation to a DAW. When triggering external
> midi stuff they are sloppy, but when triggering VSTi:s the timing is
> sample accurate.
> 
> /Patrik
> www.cutpaste.org
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> 
>