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MD pattern offset and length

MD pattern offset and length

2005-01-17 by Nathan Jantz

There is a feature in song mode for the MD where you can define offset and
length (start and end points) for a given pattern which is a nice feature.
But I was wondering if anyone might know of way to define offset and length
for a pattern while in pattern mode?  I see this useful for pattern
triggering from external devices.  Imagine having the ability to trigger
only certain parts (or regions) of pattern which would aide itself to
on-the-fly fills and remixing of a giving pattern.

 

People are known to do this in software programs that can slice up wave
files and map midi-notes to the sliced regions and then play the different
parts of the wave from a sequencer for a remixed effect (common technique in
drum-and-bass).  But I would like to apply this same technique to the MD but
in terms of triggering regions of patterns.

 

Any ideas out there on how this could be accomplished with the current
capabilities of the MD today outside the use of song mode?

 

If not, I propose Elektron add the ability to define pattern offset and
length in the Map Editor.

 

-nate

Obliq Recordings

obliq.net

 

 



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Re: [elektron] MD pattern offset and length

2005-01-17 by Federico Ciapi

> There is a feature in song mode for the MD where you can define offset 
> and
> length (start and end points) for a given pattern which is a nice 
> feature.
> But I was wondering if anyone might know of way to define offset and 
> length
> for a pattern while in pattern mode?  I see this useful for pattern
> triggering from external devices.  Imagine having the ability to 
> trigger
> only certain parts (or regions) of pattern which would aide itself to
> on-the-fly fills and remixing of a giving pattern.

> People are known to do this in software programs that can slice up wave
> files and map midi-notes to the sliced regions and then play the 
> different
> parts of the wave from a sequencer for a remixed effect (common 
> technique in
> drum-and-bass).  But I would like to apply this same technique to the 
> MD but
> in terms of triggering regions of patterns.

Isn't this just like programming a different pattern on the MD?


> Any ideas out there on how this could be accomplished with the current
> capabilities of the MD today outside the use of song mode?
>
> If not, I propose Elektron add the ability to define pattern offset and
> length in the Map Editor.


Map Editor?
which one is it?

check the pattern length menu, it should do the trick.

But I think the best way to do what you're asking for is creating more 
versions of the same pattern

Re: [elektron] MD pattern offset and length

2005-01-17 by Andy Tarpinian

On 1/17/05 2:23 PM, "Federico Ciapi" wrote:

> 
> But I think the best way to do what you're asking for is creating more
> versions of the same pattern

I tend to agree. The biggest reason in say drum and bass why they chop up a
break and trigger the individual hits is cuz they want the sound of the old
school break, and because well they don¹t have the drummer, drum kit, etc..
to make new patterns. You have the original drum source, making a bunch of
patterns would be the easiest way to do it. I do agree with you about how it
would be cool to have a cool on the fly remix type of feature, but I bet you
could do something like that with a real time delay effect.

Re: [elektron] MD pattern offset and length

2005-01-17 by Nathan Jantz

Federico, thanks for the feedback!  See more comments below:

> > There is a feature in song mode for the MD where you can define offset 
> > and length (start and end points) for a given pattern which is a nice 
> > feature.  But I was wondering if anyone might know of way to define
offset and 
> > length for a pattern while in pattern mode?  I see this useful for
pattern
> > triggering from external devices.  Imagine having the ability to 
> > trigger only certain parts (or regions) of pattern which would aide
itself to
> > on-the-fly fills and remixing of a giving pattern.
> > People are known to do this in software programs that can slice up wave
> > files and map midi-notes to the sliced regions and then play the 
> > different parts of the wave from a sequencer for a remixed effect
(common 
> > technique in drum-and-bass).  But I would like to apply this same
technique to the 
> > MD but in terms of triggering regions of patterns.
 
> Isn't this just like programming a different pattern on the MD?

Well sort of, but I'm trying to achieve a more efficient use of the MD in
terms of programming, playing back and triggering variations of patterns.
Song Mode does this very nicely. But again, I'm trying to do the same thing
by triggering portions of patterns from external devices without resorting
to copying multiple versions/fragments/variations of a pattern filling up
the pattern banks.

> > Any ideas out there on how this could be accomplished with the current
> > capabilities of the MD today outside the use of song mode?
> > If not, I propose Elektron add the ability to define pattern offset and
> > length in the Map Editor.

> Map Editor?  which one is it?

Global Edit > Midi > Map Editor

> check the pattern length menu, it should do the trick.

Are you referring to the Scale Setup page for a pattern?  If so, yes this
addresses the length of a pattern, but not the start point (offset).  You
cannot set the start point in pattern mode that I can see.  Patterns always
start at the beginning.  Again, I want to be able to both define (or
override) start and end points in a pattern and map that to a midi-note.
But this may not be possible with the current feature set of the MD.

-nate

Re: [elektron] MD pattern offset and length

2005-01-18 by endlessnessisticman

Yea, I don't see how it is possible to do in pattern mode.  I guess 
they could add it as another machine like control machines but it 
should have other features.  Maybe instead of a control machine call 
it time machine?

The best way to go the d&b route is to use a sampler with drum loop 
samples.  This is probably the best way to chop samples.  You could 
try to use the sp12? machines and the all-control machine/feature.  
Or using the all-control with a fader box and switch the volume fast 
to get a studder.  Just some ideas...

--- In elektron-users@yahoogroups.com, "Nathan Jantz" <nate@o...> 
wrote:
> Federico, thanks for the feedback!  See more comments below:
> 
> > > There is a feature in song mode for the MD where you can 
define offset 
> > > and length (start and end points) for a given pattern which is 
a nice 
> > > feature.  But I was wondering if anyone might know of way to 
define
> offset and 
> > > length for a pattern while in pattern mode?  I see this useful 
for
> pattern
> > > triggering from external devices.  Imagine having the ability 
to 
> > > trigger only certain parts (or regions) of pattern which would 
aide
> itself to
> > > on-the-fly fills and remixing of a giving pattern.
> > > People are known to do this in software programs that can 
slice up wave
> > > files and map midi-notes to the sliced regions and then play 
the 
> > > different parts of the wave from a sequencer for a remixed 
effect
> (common 
> > > technique in drum-and-bass).  But I would like to apply this 
same
> technique to the 
> > > MD but in terms of triggering regions of patterns.
>  
> > Isn't this just like programming a different pattern on the MD?
> 
> Well sort of, but I'm trying to achieve a more efficient use of 
the MD in
> terms of programming, playing back and triggering variations of 
patterns.
> Song Mode does this very nicely. But again, I'm trying to do the 
same thing
> by triggering portions of patterns from external devices without 
resorting
> to copying multiple versions/fragments/variations of a pattern 
filling up
> the pattern banks.
> 
> > > Any ideas out there on how this could be accomplished with the 
current
> > > capabilities of the MD today outside the use of song mode?
> > > If not, I propose Elektron add the ability to define pattern 
offset and
> > > length in the Map Editor.
> 
> > Map Editor?  which one is it?
> 
> Global Edit > Midi > Map Editor
> 
> > check the pattern length menu, it should do the trick.
> 
> Are you referring to the Scale Setup page for a pattern?  If so, 
yes this
> addresses the length of a pattern, but not the start point 
(offset).  You
> cannot set the start point in pattern mode that I can see.  
Patterns always
> start at the beginning.  Again, I want to be able to both define 
(or
> override) start and end points in a pattern and map that to a midi-
note.
> But this may not be possible with the current feature set of the 
MD.
> 
> -nate

Re: [elektron] MD pattern offset and length

2005-01-18 by Federico Ciapi

>
>> Isn't this just like programming a different pattern on the MD?
>
> Well sort of, but I'm trying to achieve a more efficient use of the MD 
> in
> terms of programming, playing back and triggering variations of 
> patterns.
> Song Mode does this very nicely. But again, I'm trying to do the same 
> thing
> by triggering portions of patterns from external devices without 
> resorting
> to copying multiple versions/fragments/variations of a pattern filling 
> up
> the pattern banks.

Fill those banks and dump.
A dump for every song, as it looks like you use the MD in the studio 
and not live, then it shouldn't be a problem.
or just record patterns as audio, loop and chop them as you used to do.

>>> Any ideas out there on how this could be accomplished with the 
>>> current
>>> capabilities of the MD today outside the use of song mode?
>>> If not, I propose Elektron add the ability to define pattern offset 
>>> and
>>> length in the Map Editor.
>
>> Map Editor?  which one is it?
>
> Global Edit > Midi > Map Editor
>

yes, sorry... I haven't used the MD for a while and forgot its name.
this could be interesting, but it will only work for some patterns, and 
at the end it would be like creating new patterns because you would 
need many global setups.


>> check the pattern length menu, it should do the trick.
>
> Are you referring to the Scale Setup page for a pattern?  If so, yes 
> this
> addresses the length of a pattern, but not the start point (offset).  
> You
> cannot set the start point in pattern mode that I can see.  Patterns 
> always
> start at the beginning.  Again, I want to be able to both define (or
> override) start and end points in a pattern and map that to a 
> midi-note.
> But this may not be possible with the current feature set of the MD.


Does the MD triggers patterns instantly when you press keys?
if so, then pattern length is not a problem, because you could trigger 
a pattern before the previous one has finished playing and stop that.
If it doesn't work this way, then this could be an option.

About pattern offset: this is going to be difficult IMHO.
it goes against the way the MD was designed to work.

May be some kind of real time control on pattern playback, a function 
like swing or accent that lets you choose the starting point and 
switches to that when the pattern has finished playing.
Or a new song parameter, something like loop but with realtime control.

I think a feature like this should have been planned during 
development: we know that the guys at Elektron like to keep the UI 
straight and simple and usually don't add functions when they don't 
have an appropriate control for that.
Try asking Daniel if this could be done (and they are willing to).

hey,
ask for track muting via midi too :-)

Federico

Re: [elektron] MD pattern offset and length

2005-01-18 by Nathan Jantz

> this could be interesting, but it will only work for some patterns, and 
> at the end it would be like creating new patterns because you would 
> need many global setups.

Yeah, very good point.  But it would still save me the work of programming new variations.  But I suppose that makes me sound like I’m lazy. ☺  The Pattern Shift feature could aide in this for me though to speed up the process.

> Does the MD triggers patterns instantly when you press keys?
> if so, then pattern length is not a problem, because you could trigger 
> a pattern before the previous one has finished playing and stop that.
> If it doesn't work this way, then this could be an option.

Yeah, the pattern length has never really been the issue with the Scale setup.  Plus you can trigger patterns in different ways via the new Map Editor settings which is nice.  But again no offset.

> About pattern offset: this is going to be difficult IMHO.
> it goes against the way the MD was designed to work.

I suppose, but since they implemented this in Song Mode, why couldn’t it be in Pattern Mode?  But at the same time the MD is already stuffed full of features so I’m not complaining by any means.  I’ll find other ways to do what I want to do.

Just to give you a quick background on what got me thinking this way... I recently got the new Future-Retro Revolution (http://future-retro.com) and it has this great "remix" feature built in that will remix your acid patterns on the fly for you which gives you enormous power in terms of acid variations for live situations.  But you can also use it to "remix" other gear.  It sends out a sequence of midi-notes, and depending on the remix setting it will determine the playback order of those notes.  I thought, wow this would be nice to use to remix the MD with, apply fills, etc.  Of course I can do this with programming new pattern fragments on the MD, but I was looking for a solution to map those midi-notes to regions of a MD pattern and play back the pattern fragments in different ways using the FR Revolution and still have the opportunity to tweak MD parameters live too.

> May be some kind of real time control on pattern playback, a function 
> like swing or accent that lets you choose the starting point and 
> switches to that when the pattern has finished playing.
> Or a new song parameter, something like loop but with realtime control.

Endlessnessisticman sort of suggested the same thing but in terms of control machine of some sort.  I actually proposed the same thing last year when the control machines started to come out. (See http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/elektron-users/message/9172) It would be a rather cool thing to be able to change the start and end points of pattern in real-time via a CTR machine.  But I’m not sure if this is technically possible.  

> I think a feature like this should have been planned during 
> development: we know that the guys at Elektron like to keep the UI 
> straight and simple and usually don't add functions when they don't 
> have an appropriate control for that.
> Try asking Daniel if this could be done (and they are willing to).

I’ll propose it to them, but I doubt they’ll go for it because it isn’t an in demand feature.  And I’m making a lot of assumptions about how the OS is structured from a code perspective.  But I suppose it is worth asking.

> hey, ask for track muting via midi too :-)

Okay, will do.  That would be a nice feature as well.
cheers!
-nate

Re: [elektron] MD pattern offset and length

2005-01-19 by Andreas Nordenstam

This sounds like a very interesting feature! Will you add it to the 
wishlist to elektron?

Am really missing the "analogue" way of doing things with adjustable 
start/stop/lenght/direction for every pattern. Endless variations 
quickly pops out that way and arpeggios are that much better! 

Variable sequence lenght for each part would also make it a lot more 
powerful. Should be easy enough. Still puzzles me as to why they 
haven't implemented it in both SPS and SFX. 

Think at least the Mono really SHOULD be able to do what sequencensers 
have done since the 70's..

Andreas

Re: [elektron] MD pattern offset and length

2005-01-20 by Tom McIvor

I absolutely agree on this one. I Use a P3 sequencer at the moment 
which uses the features  that you have mentioned (+ much more). The 
Machine Drum would become such a powerful machine if this kind of 
pattern editing was used.

I'm voting for more analogue style editing.

Tom

On 19 Jan 2005, at 15:53, Andreas Nordenstam wrote:

>
>  This sounds like a very interesting feature! Will you add it to the
>  wishlist to elektron?
>
>  Am really missing the "analogue" way of doing things with adjustable
>  start/stop/lenght/direction for every pattern. Endless variations
>  quickly pops out that way and arpeggios are that much better!
>
>  Variable sequence lenght for each part would also make it a lot more
>  powerful. Should be easy enough. Still puzzles me as to why they
>  haven't implemented it in both SPS and SFX.
>
>  Think at least the Mono really SHOULD be able to do what sequencensers
>  have done since the 70's..
>
>  Andreas
>
>
>
>
>
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Thomas McIvor
School of Physics and Astronomy
University of St. Andrews
North Haugh
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U.K.
Tele: (+44 1334) 462823


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