Mono Machine or Virus or Nord G2 Modular Synths???
2005-02-25 by Paul love
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2005-02-25 by Paul love
Hey all I am curious If you had the Bones to drop on a Hardware synth what would you Spend your money on If money was no option A-MonoMachine--- -B Virus Ti Polar----C Nord Modular G2!!! I am A Machinedrum Owner As well and know that Elektron rocks But Need Some opinions Please!!!!! Thanks Regards Paul
2005-02-25 by niall munnelly
On Fri, Feb 25, 2005 at 12:53:00AM -0000, Paul love wrote:
>
>
> Hey all I am curious If you had the Bones to drop on a Hardware synth what
> would you Spend your money on If money was no option A-MonoMachine---
> -B Virus Ti Polar----C Nord Modular G2!!!
think bigger.
http://www.buchla.com/200e/index.html
{of course, if you're asking which of these three would i
buy, i'd prolly buy the nord, since i already have a
monomachine. they're all very different beasts, though, and
they would complement each other, i reckon}
--
yours,
niall.
.. . . . . . . . . .
aleph null. a simple insinuation around silence.
http://syncretism.net
.. .. gpg public key - http://www.aleph-null.net/niall.gpg .. ..2005-02-25 by Christopher Mitchell
If money were no object, I'd buy all three (obviously) because they fill different niches. I own a monomachine and a virusC (indigo2) and they're very different, my friend also has a Nord Modular (1) and MicroMod... very different. It depends I think on what your interest is as far as programming. The MnM has the sequencer which is unmatched, and the closest competitor in these three would be to setup some step sequencers in the Nord. The Virus series is really quite nice, whether you get the TI or a B or C (which can be had at much more reasonable prices, since we all know that money *is* an issue or we wouldn't fret about which to buy)... Great sounds in a flash, and nice interface to the programming. I'd really like to get a Nord G2 because I like the programming style. Between a MachineDrum, MonoMachine and the Indigo2, I don't know if I could ever justify it, though... (especially not with a baby coming hah.) give some more specifics about what you want to do and maybe we can solicit some more specific answers.
On Feb 24, 2005, at 6:53 PM, Paul love wrote: > > > Hey all I am curious If you had the Bones to drop on a Hardware synth > what > would you Spend your money on If money was no option > A-MonoMachine--- > -B Virus Ti Polar----C Nord Modular G2!!! I am A Machinedrum Owner As > well > and know that Elektron rocks But Need Some opinions Please!!!!! Thanks > Regards Paul > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > >
2005-02-25 by John Gellings
I think you are going to get a very elektron-centric response here. I'm going for the Monomachine myself and that should be a perfect compliment to your machinedrum. However, it depends if you want something more traditional sounding or something a little beyond the norm. --- Paul love <paul10love@...> wrote: > > Hey all I am curious If you had the Bones to drop on > a Hardware synth what > would you Spend your money on If money was no option > A-MonoMachine--- > -B Virus Ti Polar----C Nord Modular G2!!! I am A > Machinedrum Owner As well > and know that Elektron rocks But Need Some opinions > Please!!!!! Thanks > Regards Paul > > > > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Sports - Sign up for Fantasy Baseball. http://baseball.fantasysports.yahoo.com/
2005-02-25 by Paul Love
I just want to Have a synth that is inspiring to work with and not insanely deep. I might spend up to 25 30 minutes tweeking a sound But im not patient enough for a Synth like Absynth where you are building the synth from scratch I like to work for my sounds But I also like to make music as well!!!! I guess for me its probably a tossup between the Virus TI or the Monomachine . Everyone who has a Monomachine seems to like it allot and its cheaper than Virus TI But I cant make up my mind. The Nord Looks Insanely Hard As far as the learning curve goes I dont know???? On Feb 24, 2005, at 5:06 PM, Christopher Mitchell wrote: > If money were no object, I'd buy all three (obviously) because they > fill different niches.� I own a monomachine and a virusC (indigo2) and > they're very different, my friend also has a Nord Modular (1) and > MicroMod... very different. > > It depends I think on what your interest is as far as programming.� > The > MnM has the sequencer which is unmatched, and the closest competitor > in > these three would be to setup some step sequencers in the Nord.� The > Virus series is really quite nice, whether you get the TI or a B or C > (which can be had at much more reasonable prices, since we all know > that money *is* an issue or we wouldn't fret about which to buy)...� > Great sounds in a flash, and nice interface to the programming. > > I'd really like to get a Nord G2 because I like the programming > style.� > Between a MachineDrum, MonoMachine and the Indigo2, I don't know if I > could ever justify it, though... (especially not with a baby coming > hah.) > > give some more specifics about what you want to do and maybe we can > solicit some more specific answers. > > On Feb 24, 2005, at 6:53 PM, Paul love wrote: > > > > > > > Hey all I am curious If you had the Bones to drop on a Hardware > synth > > what > > would you Spend your money on If money was no option��� > > A-MonoMachine--- > > -B Virus Ti Polar----C Nord Modular G2!!! I am A Machinedrum Owner > As > > well > > and know that� Elektron rocks But Need Some opinions Please!!!!! > Thanks > > Regards Paul > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > ADVERTISEMENT > <22305_0205_016_b_300250_a.gif> > <l.gif> > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > � To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/elektron-users/ > � > � To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > elektron-users-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > � > � Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > Service. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2005-02-25 by niall munnelly
On Thu, Feb 24, 2005 at 05:14:40PM -0800, Paul Love wrote: > > I just want to Have a synth that is inspiring to work with and not > insanely deep. I might spend up to 25 30 minutes tweeking a sound But > im not patient enough for a Synth like Absynth where you are building > the synth from scratch I like to work for my sounds But I also like to > make music as well!!!! the monomachine is dead easy, but you have to put some work in, or you'll sound like a lot of other peopel using monomachines. heh, then again, i guess the same could be said for access kit. -- yours, niall. .. . . . . . . . . . aleph null. a simple insinuation around silence. http://syncretism.net .. .. gpg public key - http://www.aleph-null.net/niall.gpg .. ..
2005-02-25 by Automatic Panic
wait for the access ti and get it. it's gonna blow all the others away ;) --- niall munnelly <aleph@...> wrote: > On Thu, Feb 24, 2005 at 05:14:40PM -0800, Paul Love > wrote: > > > > I just want to Have a synth that is inspiring to > work with and not > > insanely deep. I might spend up to 25 30 minutes > tweeking a sound But > > im not patient enough for a Synth like Absynth > where you are building > > the synth from scratch I like to work for my > sounds But I also like to > > make music as well!!!! > > the monomachine is dead easy, but you have to put > some work > in, or you'll sound like a lot of other peopel using > monomachines. > > heh, then again, i guess the same could be said for > access > kit. > > -- > yours, > niall. > .. . . . . . . . > . . > aleph null. a simple > insinuation around silence. > http://syncretism.net > .. .. gpg public key - > http://www.aleph-null.net/niall.gpg .. .. > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
2005-02-25 by Gene Schwartz
I've spent quality time on the G2 and the mnm, and I'd say that for ease of use the sequencer on the mnm wins, but for power and flexibility,there is simply no comparison. The G2 sequencer wins by a mile. But for the entire question - yes - what kind of sound do you want, how important is 'the sound' in the decision, do you care that an instrument tries to emulate analog, what kind of modulation power do you want, how many voices do you need, what do you want out of an on board sequencer, and do you care if there is one, etc.. Depending on what is important to you, you could choose any one of these.
-----Original Message----- From: Christopher Mitchell [mailto:chrism@...] Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2005 5:07 PM To: elektron-users@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [elektron] Mono Machine or Virus or Nord G2 Modular Synths??? If money were no object, I'd buy all three (obviously) because they fill different niches. I own a monomachine and a virusC (indigo2) and they're very different, my friend also has a Nord Modular (1) and MicroMod... very different. It depends I think on what your interest is as far as programming. The MnM has the sequencer which is unmatched, and the closest competitor in these three would be to setup some step sequencers in the Nord. The Virus series is really quite nice, whether you get the TI or a B or C (which can be had at much more reasonable prices, since we all know that money *is* an issue or we wouldn't fret about which to buy)... Great sounds in a flash, and nice interface to the programming. I'd really like to get a Nord G2 because I like the programming style. Between a MachineDrum, MonoMachine and the Indigo2, I don't know if I could ever justify it, though... (especially not with a baby coming hah.) give some more specifics about what you want to do and maybe we can solicit some more specific answers. On Feb 24, 2005, at 6:53 PM, Paul love wrote: > > > Hey all I am curious If you had the Bones to drop on a Hardware synth > what > would you Spend your money on If money was no option > A-MonoMachine--- > -B Virus Ti Polar----C Nord Modular G2!!! I am A Machinedrum Owner As > well > and know that Elektron rocks But Need Some opinions Please!!!!! Thanks > Regards Paul > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
2005-02-25 by Gene Schwartz
From your description, I'd rule out the G2 - you'd be pretty much just working with presets, and the strength of the G2 is not in its presets. Personally, I'd choose the Monomachine, but it comes down to the fact that subjectively I much prefer the interface of the Monomachine, and also prefer its sound. And that's the thing, is that based on subjective factors, someone could recommend either one. The more specific you are about what's important to you, the easier it is to make a recommendation that is more objective.
-----Original Message----- From: Paul Love [mailto:paul10love@...] Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2005 5:15 PM To: elektron-users@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [elektron] Mono Machine or Virus or Nord G2 Modular Synths??? I just want to Have a synth that is inspiring to work with and not insanely deep. I might spend up to 25 30 minutes tweeking a sound But im not patient enough for a Synth like Absynth where you are building the synth from scratch I like to work for my sounds But I also like to make music as well!!!! I guess for me its probably a tossup between the Virus TI or the Monomachine . Everyone who has a Monomachine seems to like it allot and its cheaper than Virus TI But I cant make up my mind. The Nord Looks Insanely Hard As far as the learning curve goes I dont know???? On Feb 24, 2005, at 5:06 PM, Christopher Mitchell wrote: > If money were no object, I'd buy all three (obviously) because they > fill different niches.\ufffd I own a monomachine and a virusC (indigo2) and > they're very different, my friend also has a Nord Modular (1) and > MicroMod... very different. > > It depends I think on what your interest is as far as programming.\ufffd > The > MnM has the sequencer which is unmatched, and the closest competitor > in > these three would be to setup some step sequencers in the Nord.\ufffd The > Virus series is really quite nice, whether you get the TI or a B or C > (which can be had at much more reasonable prices, since we all know > that money *is* an issue or we wouldn't fret about which to buy)...\ufffd > Great sounds in a flash, and nice interface to the programming. > > I'd really like to get a Nord G2 because I like the programming > style.\ufffd > Between a MachineDrum, MonoMachine and the Indigo2, I don't know if I > could ever justify it, though... (especially not with a baby coming > hah.) > > give some more specifics about what you want to do and maybe we can > solicit some more specific answers. > > On Feb 24, 2005, at 6:53 PM, Paul love wrote: > > > > > > > Hey all I am curious If you had the Bones to drop on a Hardware > synth > > what > > would you Spend your money on If money was no option\ufffd\ufffd\ufffd > > A-MonoMachine--- > > -B Virus Ti Polar----C Nord Modular G2!!! I am A Machinedrum Owner > As > > well > > and know that\ufffd Elektron rocks But Need Some opinions Please!!!!! > Thanks > > Regards Paul > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > ADVERTISEMENT > <22305_0205_016_b_300250_a.gif> > <l.gif> > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > \ufffd To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/elektron-users/ > \ufffd > \ufffd To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > elektron-users-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > \ufffd > \ufffd Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > Service. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Links
2005-02-25 by Christopher Mitchell
well, but by that argument since the G2 is going to require the computer to program it (the sequencers) anyway, then he should also buy a Powerbook and run Numerology ;)
On Feb 24, 2005, at 8:41 PM, Gene Schwartz wrote: > > I've spent quality time on the G2 and the mnm, and I'd say that for > ease of > use the sequencer on the mnm wins, but for power and flexibility,there > is > simply no comparison. The G2 sequencer wins by a mile. > > But for the entire question - yes - what kind of sound do you want, how > important is 'the sound' in the decision, do you care that an > instrument > tries to emulate analog, what kind of modulation power do you want, > how many > voices do you need, what do you want out of an on board sequencer, and > do > you care if there is one, etc.. Depending on what is important to > you, you > could choose any one of these. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Christopher Mitchell [mailto:chrism@...] > Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2005 5:07 PM > To: elektron-users@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [elektron] Mono Machine or Virus or Nord G2 Modular > Synths??? > > > > If money were no object, I'd buy all three (obviously) because they > fill different niches. I own a monomachine and a virusC (indigo2) and > they're very different, my friend also has a Nord Modular (1) and > MicroMod... very different. > > It depends I think on what your interest is as far as programming. The > MnM has the sequencer which is unmatched, and the closest competitor in > these three would be to setup some step sequencers in the Nord. The > Virus series is really quite nice, whether you get the TI or a B or C > (which can be had at much more reasonable prices, since we all know > that money *is* an issue or we wouldn't fret about which to buy)... > Great sounds in a flash, and nice interface to the programming. > > I'd really like to get a Nord G2 because I like the programming style. > Between a MachineDrum, MonoMachine and the Indigo2, I don't know if I > could ever justify it, though... (especially not with a baby coming > hah.) > > give some more specifics about what you want to do and maybe we can > solicit some more specific answers. > > On Feb 24, 2005, at 6:53 PM, Paul love wrote: > >> >> >> Hey all I am curious If you had the Bones to drop on a Hardware synth >> what >> would you Spend your money on If money was no option >> A-MonoMachine--- >> -B Virus Ti Polar----C Nord Modular G2!!! I am A Machinedrum Owner As >> well >> and know that Elektron rocks But Need Some opinions Please!!!!! >> Thanks >> Regards Paul >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Yahoo! Groups Links >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > >
2005-02-25 by synchro1
I'm going to agree with Gene. And without knowing much more about what you are looking for, the question really is too hard to answer. I own the G2, MnM, and a Virus C. All three are excellent and stand the test of time (in other words, I learn something new each time I start to explore or play). Each has a "personality", each has uniqueness. I am an old fart with a long history in synthesis (mainly analog). My opinion (worth all of about $.02 and worthless in Euros): sound wise the Virus gives me the strongest palette and power. Playability, fun factor, joy of noodling about goes to Elektron, hands down. Power to explore sound design and synthesis concepts and learning curve goes to the Nord (I started with a Micro Modular years ago, you could easily get that and one of the others instead of the G2 and be happy). Instruments are personal and it is hard to type words about something that is non-verbal, tactile, and immediate. It would be like choosing a bicycle based on a small photo. So, my real suggestion: find a way to try them out. Which means finding people who already have them. I am on the Peninsula between San Francisco and San Jose. I am open to allowing people to stop by and spend some quality time trying out things. Perhaps you are near someone that would extend a similar invite? Good luck. At a minimum, you are sure starting with a fine short list to choose from and I wouldn't fault you for picking any one of them. At 06:41 PM 02/24/2005, you wrote:
>I've spent quality time on the G2 and the mnm, and I'd say that for ease of >use the sequencer on the mnm wins, but for power and flexibility,there is >simply no comparison. The G2 sequencer wins by a mile. > >But for the entire question - yes - what kind of sound do you want, how >important is 'the sound' in the decision, do you care that an instrument >tries to emulate analog, what kind of modulation power do you want, how many >voices do you need, what do you want out of an on board sequencer, and do >you care if there is one, etc.. Depending on what is important to you, you >could choose any one of these.<snip>
2005-02-25 by Gene Schwartz
Numerology (mac only) - HIGHLY recommended, and a tremendous value. Thing is, if you get into Numerology, which can modulate the parameters of soft synths, you develop a whole other viable option, in my opinion. The computer based thing, which I think is becoming more and more attractive, with some great soft synths. If you already have the fast computer, this is the most economical choice. But some combination of all of these is probably, ultimately, the most attractive choice. If you don't have computer sequencing, I'd say that given your criteria, the Monomachine is overwhelmingly the best choice. The Virus doesn't have a sequencer. The g2 does, and it's excellent - but the G2 exceeds the learning curve/complexity factor that you're into (which isn't a criticism) - you really need to PROGRAM it to get your money's worth. The Monomachine is great fun. Excellent sound and the sequencer is just SO well integrated. (I should mention that the limitations of the sequencer did annoy me, the most notable of which is the fact that all tracks must be the same length. ONe reason that I preferred the sequencer on the POlymorph, though the synth on the mnm is far, far superior.) If you're looking for virtual analog, though, the mnm isn't the best choice.
-----Original Message----- From: Christopher Mitchell [mailto:chrism@...] Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2005 7:00 PM To: elektron-users@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [elektron] Mono Machine or Virus or Nord G2 Modular Synths??? well, but by that argument since the G2 is going to require the computer to program it (the sequencers) anyway, then he should also buy a Powerbook and run Numerology ;) On Feb 24, 2005, at 8:41 PM, Gene Schwartz wrote: > > I've spent quality time on the G2 and the mnm, and I'd say that for > ease of > use the sequencer on the mnm wins, but for power and flexibility,there > is > simply no comparison. The G2 sequencer wins by a mile. > > But for the entire question - yes - what kind of sound do you want, how > important is 'the sound' in the decision, do you care that an > instrument > tries to emulate analog, what kind of modulation power do you want, > how many > voices do you need, what do you want out of an on board sequencer, and > do > you care if there is one, etc.. Depending on what is important to > you, you > could choose any one of these. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Christopher Mitchell [mailto:chrism@...] > Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2005 5:07 PM > To: elektron-users@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [elektron] Mono Machine or Virus or Nord G2 Modular > Synths??? > > > > If money were no object, I'd buy all three (obviously) because they > fill different niches. I own a monomachine and a virusC (indigo2) and > they're very different, my friend also has a Nord Modular (1) and > MicroMod... very different. > > It depends I think on what your interest is as far as programming. The > MnM has the sequencer which is unmatched, and the closest competitor in > these three would be to setup some step sequencers in the Nord. The > Virus series is really quite nice, whether you get the TI or a B or C > (which can be had at much more reasonable prices, since we all know > that money *is* an issue or we wouldn't fret about which to buy)... > Great sounds in a flash, and nice interface to the programming. > > I'd really like to get a Nord G2 because I like the programming style. > Between a MachineDrum, MonoMachine and the Indigo2, I don't know if I > could ever justify it, though... (especially not with a baby coming > hah.) > > give some more specifics about what you want to do and maybe we can > solicit some more specific answers. > > On Feb 24, 2005, at 6:53 PM, Paul love wrote: > >> >> >> Hey all I am curious If you had the Bones to drop on a Hardware synth >> what >> would you Spend your money on If money was no option >> A-MonoMachine--- >> -B Virus Ti Polar----C Nord Modular G2!!! I am A Machinedrum Owner As >> well >> and know that Elektron rocks But Need Some opinions Please!!!!! >> Thanks >> Regards Paul >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Yahoo! Groups Links >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
2005-02-25 by endlessnessisticman
I think everyone is making valuable points here. Each one is different. One of the pluses of the Polar is that you can use it as your sound card, you can send your MD to its inputs and record in your comp. It also has great polyphony along with several reverbs and delays. It would be what I would choose if I didn't already have an Indigo 2. I've gotten used to programing the MDs midi machines with it and have a quick workflow. But there is also the issue that nobody has used the TI line and reviewed it to the public. If you don't already have a VA this may be a good choice. The monomachine seems nice and seems to have alot of potential. But I already have a MD and think I may get tired of the step sequencing. I may be wrong but I think the MnM allows for live record for midi which the MD doesn't have. It may have a small sound palette. But I am very interested in the vocal machines. The G2 would be good for presets. I don't bother even to program the Virus. But I don't know much about it. Can it be used as a sound card like the Polar? It seems powerful but I too don't want to spend alot of time programing sounds unless I got paid for it. I found that the Virus I have is much better when I don't waste my time programing it, but just tweak and save some other preset. My best advice, get to a guitar center or something where you can try things out for 30days or find someone that has one. Buy used if possible. If you don't need a sound card go for a used Virus. You can get them cheap because alot of people have been selling them. Also a used micromod has been noted here and elsewhere as being very affordable. You may be able to get two which in my opinion would be 10 times better than getting just one. If you could get a used MnM, a Virus B, and a micromod, wow! I assume you need a keyboard too. I think that's why you chose these. That is also a factor. I know the Virus keys are nice. I don't know about the MnM and G4. Access uses Fatar keys on their boards. You could also get a midi keyboard and used synths. --- In elektron-users@yahoogroups.com, "Paul love" <paul10love@c...> wrote: > > Hey all I am curious If you had the Bones to drop on a Hardware synth what > would you Spend your money on If money was no option A-MonoMachine--- > -B Virus Ti Polar----C Nord Modular G2!!! I am A Machinedrum Owner As well > and know that Elektron rocks But Need Some opinions Please!!!!! Thanks > Regards Paul
2005-02-25 by Ville Gustafsson
There is a G2 softsynth demo for free at clavia.se You need a fairly powerful computer, get no polyphony, only some of the modules so it can't really compare to the real thing but i think it will still give you a very good idea. If you are looking for originality, imo the G2 and monomachine are both very "original" although very different from each other, whereas the Virus is much more of an "ordinary" synth. /Ville
2005-02-28 by uri indgena
> > > >> > >>as a quote I\ufffdd say that owning a micromodular and a monomachine, >constitutes the best configuration I\ufffdve ever had and using the sequencer of >the monomachine makes it very easy to play tracks on the micromodular, or >notes, without keyboard (I don\ufffdt know if the machinedrum has an external >sequencer as well) .Also if you want to get into synthesis and don\ufffdt have a >lot of money the micromodular it\ufffds the best choiice, of course you need a >computer still, and its really limited compared to the nord modular or g2, >but my advice after seeing how its textures complement(and what sort of >things it does) with the monomachine its GET A MICROMODULAR!!!!!!!whatever >you do, its only 300eu.and you get into synthesis straight on, You have to consider though, that it has 4 voices polyphony(some patches can handle plenty of sounds with onevoice though), and only one patch (channel midi) at a time. but it\ufffds definitely worth every euro you pay for it because it can be configured to process audio, to play loops, to make incredible beautiful sounds, or random rythm-textures,vocoding...whatever.everything with really good quality. It has only one dsp in contrast with the 4 it has the nord.and its not expandeable. Of course if money is no problem, I supose the G2 its the best choice. I expect this is useful for you. see you!
> >> Hey all I am curious If you had the Bones to drop on a Hardware synth > >> what > >> would you Spend your money on If money was no option > >> A-MonoMachine--- > >> -B Virus Ti Polar----C Nord Modular G2!!! I am A Machinedrum Owner As > >> well > >> and know that Elektron rocks But Need Some opinions Please!!!!! > >> Thanks > >> Regards Paul > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> Yahoo! Groups Links > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > >