Elektron Musical Instruments

I have two kicks in a certain kit, one triggering the other.
I can hear marked fluctuations in volume and pitch when I
trigger both, even when the second kick is just a transient,
with no decay to speak of.

I'm getting this when I play through the MD's stereo bus,
because multitracking the MD isn't an option for me right
now.  I've tried subtle and wildly different variations on
the sounds, though I'd prefer to keep the machines as they
are.

How does one get around this?

-- 
Yours,
Niall.
.. .  .   .    .     .       .           .             .                 .
Aleph-Null.                             A Simple Insinuation Around Silence.
http://aleph-null.net
.. .. gpg public key - http://www.aleph-null.net/niall.gpg .. ..

I think it's just an audible effect of layering two like sounding
things.  Djs have this same issues when beatmatching records, trying
to keep the kicks fro cancelling or flamming slightly.

On 12/29/06, Niall Munnelly <aleph@...> wrote:
> I have two kicks in a certain kit, one triggering the other.
> I can hear marked fluctuations in volume and pitch when I
> trigger both, even when the second kick is just a transient,
> with no decay to speak of.
>
> I'm getting this when I play through the MD's stereo bus,
> because multitracking the MD isn't an option for me right
> now.  I've tried subtle and wildly different variations on
> the sounds, though I'd prefer to keep the machines as they
> are.
>
> How does one get around this?
>
> --
> Yours,
> Niall.
> .. .  .   .    .     .       .           .             .                 .
> Aleph-Null.                             A Simple Insinuation Around Silence.
> http://aleph-null.net
> .. .. gpg public key - http://www.aleph-null.net/niall.gpg .. ..
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>


-- 
Tarekith
http://www.tarekith.com

On Fri, Dec 29, 2006 at 10:24:51AM -0600, Tarekith wrote:
> I think it's just an audible effect of layering two like sounding
> things.  Djs have this same issues when beatmatching records, trying
> to keep the kicks fro cancelling or flamming slightly.

Aye, I know that low-end is especially susceptible to this
kind of thing, but I'm surprised to hear it even when the
second machine's decay is near zero.  I suppose I could mess
around with the transients, as well.  I'll keep at it, and
if it defies sense, then I'll upload a .syx or sample.
Cheers.


-- 
Yours,
Niall.
.. .  .   .    .     .       .           .             .                 .
Aleph-Null.                             A Simple Insinuation Around Silence.
http://aleph-null.net
.. .. gpg public key - http://www.aleph-null.net/niall.gpg .. ..

Well, without a multi track or sample editor, the only think I can think of
would be to use a sampler to record the two kicks together on a number of
hits, then pick out the one that has the least phase issues, and trigger
that on hits where you want to hear both..

 

Baring that, create a third kick that does the job of the other two in the
track?

 

And one more thought I had:  you could delay one of the kicks by just a few
clicks in the sequence (though I don't know how you do that on the MD) so
that you may be able to at least get the phase issue to be more regular.  

 

Tony

 

  _____  

From: elektron-users@yahoogroups.com [mailto:elektron-users@yahoogroups.com]
On Behalf Of Niall Munnelly
Sent: Friday, December 29, 2006 10:20 AM
To: elektron-users@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [elektron] Layered Kicks and Phasing Issues

 

I have two kicks in a certain kit, one triggering the other.
I can hear marked fluctuations in volume and pitch when I
trigger both, even when the second kick is just a transient,
with no decay to speak of.

I'm getting this when I play through the MD's stereo bus,
because multitracking the MD isn't an option for me right
now. I've tried subtle and wildly different variations on
the sounds, though I'd prefer to keep the machines as they
are.

How does one get around this?

-- 
Yours,
Niall.
.. . . . . . . . . .
Aleph-Null. A Simple Insinuation Around Silence.
http://aleph- <http://aleph-null.net> null.net
.. .. gpg public key - http://www.aleph-
<http://www.aleph-null.net/niall.gpg> null.net/niall.gpg .. ..

 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Like a phasing or flanging type sound?

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Tarekith 
  To: elektron-users@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Friday, December 29, 2006 11:24 AM
  Subject: Re: [elektron] Layered Kicks and Phasing Issues


  I think it's just an audible effect of layering two like sounding
  things. Djs have this same issues when beatmatching records, trying
  to keep the kicks fro cancelling or flamming slightly.

  On 12/29/06, Niall Munnelly <aleph@...> wrote:
  > I have two kicks in a certain kit, one triggering the other.
  > I can hear marked fluctuations in volume and pitch when I
  > trigger both, even when the second kick is just a transient,
  > with no decay to speak of.
  >
  > I'm getting this when I play through the MD's stereo bus,
  > because multitracking the MD isn't an option for me right
  > now. I've tried subtle and wildly different variations on
  > the sounds, though I'd prefer to keep the machines as they
  > are.
  >
  > How does one get around this?
  >
  > --
  > Yours,
  > Niall.
  > .. . . . . . . . . .
  > Aleph-Null. A Simple Insinuation Around Silence.
  > http://aleph-null.net
  > .. .. gpg public key - http://www.aleph-null.net/niall.gpg .. ..
  >
  >
  >
  > Yahoo! Groups Links
  >
  >
  >
  >

  -- 
  Tarekith
  http://www.tarekith.com


   

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

there was a really great thread about this on DOA a few weeks ago, really
informative.
here is the link-
http://www.dogsonacid.com/showthread.php?threadid=443140&highlight=house+kicks
read the whole thing man. there is a lot of interesting stuff in there.

and i hope this helped you.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

So, it looks like there's no way to get around this
in the MD's stereo bus itself, or at least, I haven't found
a workable solution.  For now, I guess I'll just fold two
kicks into a mono wave and load it up on the MD for this
specific sound, and hold off on trigger-chaining kicks until
I can multitrack properly again.

Cheers, all.

-- 
Yours,
Niall.
.. .  .   .    .     .       .           .             .                 .
Aleph-Null.                             A Simple Insinuation Around Silence.
http://aleph-null.net
.. .. gpg public key - http://www.aleph-null.net/niall.gpg .. ..

EQ??


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On Dec 29, 2006, at 5:57 PM, rory st john wrote:

> EQ??
>
yea thats what i was gonna say eq out the freq thats screwing it up,  
but that may ruin the sound he is going for in the end

He needs a side-chained multi-band dynamics processor to duck out the
frequencies in one of the sound when the other plays.

 

Tony

 

  _____  

From: elektron-users@yahoogroups.com [mailto:elektron-users@yahoogroups.com]
On Behalf Of Andy Tarpinian
Sent: Friday, December 29, 2006 5:26 PM
To: elektron-users@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [elektron] Layered Kicks and Phasing Issues

 


On Dec 29, 2006, at 5:57 PM, rory st john wrote:

> EQ??
>
yea thats what i was gonna say eq out the freq thats screwing it up, 
but that may ruin the sound he is going for in the end

 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

do yo have any kind of filter with an All Pass mode?  if so try that.

On 12/29/06, Tony Scharf <tony@...> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
> He needs a side-chained multi-band dynamics processor to duck out the
>  frequencies in one of the sound when the other plays.
>
>  Tony
>
>  _____
>
>  From: elektron-users@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:elektron-users@yahoogroups.com]
>  On Behalf Of Andy Tarpinian
>  Sent: Friday, December 29, 2006 5:26 PM
>  To: elektron-users@yahoogroups.com
>  Subject: Re: [elektron] Layered Kicks and Phasing Issues
>
>  On Dec 29, 2006, at 5:57 PM, rory st john wrote:
>
>  > EQ??
>  >
>  yea thats what i was gonna say eq out the freq thats screwing it up,
>  but that may ruin the sound he is going for in the end
>
>  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>  


-- 
i warned you not to go out tonight...

I've noticed that for the OS's in the recent years' MD OS's, the TRX-BD phase oscillates even when in isolation.  But when I removed the Dynamix send level, the shifting stopped.  At least that was my recollection from earlier this year when I was troubleshooting the shifting.   Something to check out!

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Niall Munnelly 
  To: elektron-users@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Friday, December 29, 2006 11:20 AM
  Subject: [elektron] Layered Kicks and Phasing Issues


  I have two kicks in a certain kit, one triggering the other.
  I can hear marked fluctuations in volume and pitch when I
  trigger both, even when the second kick is just a transient,
  with no decay to speak of.

  I'm getting this when I play through the MD's stereo bus,
  because multitracking the MD isn't an option for me right
  now. I've tried subtle and wildly different variations on
  the sounds, though I'd prefer to keep the machines as they
  are.

  How does one get around this?

  -- 
  Yours,
  Niall.
  ... . . . . . . . . .
  Aleph-Null. A Simple Insinuation Around Silence.
  http://aleph-null.net
  ... .. gpg public key - http://www.aleph-null.net/niall.gpg .. ..


   

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Layering bass drums without selective filtering of each and getting
them to phase-align is quite dificult in the real-world, as the most
minute timing changes will cause phase issues, and needless to say,
those will kill your low-end fast.

I have found that similar issues exist in the MD when layering
engines. If I want absolutely phase-locked sounds, with no
cancellation, I have found I cannot do it live and real-time with the
MD - I have to sample the constituent sounds and post-process/align in
the DAW.


cheers,
Ian

hi all,
for which it concerns the layered kicks or, better, layered low frequencies:
the fact is of course, due to phasing issues but, for me, the most
important thing is the "batiment" or better the beatings waves that
happen when 2 low frequencies are played togheter in the same time.
An example: let's say I play 2 freqs, 35Hz and 37Hz, what's happens?
Our hearing system will listen a 36Hz (the average freq) but in a strange
way, in fact I'll listen that freq with variations in amplitude and these
variations will be function of time of half second or better 500 ms, more or
less (37-35= 2Hz; this corresponds to 500ms).
The amplitude of that freq will vary (max and min) every 500ms, and this
is, for me, the possible cause deriving from fluctuations occured for 2 layered
kicks. Of course, this happens also for middle and high freqs but in this case
the amplitude variations are so fast that for our hearing system are inaudible.
My english is bad I know, but comments will be welcome.

marco

>
>
><http://groups.yahoo.com/group/elektron-users/message/14367;_ylc=X3oDMTJxODI1M2thBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzI4NDc3MwRncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwMzE5NTkEbXNnSWQDMTQzNjcEc2VjA2Rtc2cEc2xrA3Ztc2cEc3RpbWUDMTE2Nzg1MzY0Mg-->Re: 
>Layered Kicks and Phasing Issues
>
>Posted by: "Ian Lamb" <mailto:ianblamb@...?Subject= 
>Re%3A%20Layered%20Kicks%20and%20Phasing%20Issues>ianblamb@...   
><http://profiles.yahoo.com/aeon314159> aeon314159
>
>Tue Jan 2, 2007 5:09 pm (PST)
>
>Layering bass drums without selective filtering of each and getting
>them to phase-align is quite dificult in the real-world, as the most
>minute timing changes will cause phase issues, and needless to say,
>those will kill your low-end fast.
>
>I have found that similar issues exist in the MD when layering
>engines. If I want absolutely phase-locked sounds, with no
>cancellation, I have found I cannot do it live and real-time with the
>MD - I have to sample the constituent sounds and post-process/align in
>the DAW.
>
>cheers,
>Ian
>
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