Elektron Musical Instruments

I'm contemplating a Machinedrum, but I have a couple questions:

1. When recording parameter locks, can you do realtime recording so that you can turn a
knob 
while the pattern plays and record a series of pattern lock values?

2. How well does the Machinedrum work as a sound source when controlled by MIDI
controllers? 
For example, how much can you control via note velocity?

3. Has anyone done a comparison between the Machinedrum and the Waldorf Rack Attack?

Thanks.
Mark

> 1. When recording parameter locks, can you do realtime recording so 
> that you can turn a
> knob
> while the pattern plays and record a series of pattern lock values?

Yes; you have to press rec+play to go into real time rec, then you can 
fine tune the locks in the sequencer.

> 2. How well does the Machinedrum work as a sound source when 
> controlled by MIDI
> controllers?
> For example, how much can you control via note velocity?

I think that the MD doesn't react to note velocity at all...
can anyone confirm this?
But it has an "accent" parameter that lets you easily play with 
dynamics.

> 3. Has anyone done a comparison between the Machinedrum and the 
> Waldorf Rack Attack?
>

They are 2 different machines: I think that even the Attack has a good 
sound (not the same), but the Md has a better UI and a good sequencer.
The attack is more like a sound module, the MD can stand on its own.

I believe that programming is easier on the MD than on the Attack.

Also, the MD features a compressor, something that I can't recall being 
on the attack.

If I'd were to buy the attack, I'd choose the plug-in.

> I'm contemplating a Machinedrum, but I have a couple questions:
> 
> 1. When recording parameter locks, can you do realtime
> recording so that you can turn a knob 
> while the pattern plays and record a series of pattern lock values?

Yes


> 2. How well does the Machinedrum work as a sound source when
> controlled by MIDI controllers? 
> For example, how much can you control via note velocity?

It works fairly well. There is room for improvement here, particularly
in the area of playing the machinedrum from drum pads. Right now, for
example, the velocity to volume ratio is fixed, and there's no way to
assign velocity to pitch. Likewise you also can't use an external
hihat's CC controls to modify the decay on a hat.

> 3. Has anyone done a comparison between the Machinedrum and
> the Waldorf Rack Attack?

Yes. Apples and oranges. The machinedrum has a much more lively organic
sound, feel, and function. It's pattern system is the best. You'll be up
and making cool sounds in less than a day. But the RackAttack offers a
mod matrix, and a very high degree of programmability. It has more
variety of effects, but they can not be connected serially (distortion
at the filter stage though). Actually, together, the two units would
make a great combination. It's really a coin toss as to which is better
for your first. 

It's actually very simple: if you want a machinedrum, you'll have no
choice but to buy the Elektron!

-m@

> I think that the MD doesn't react to note velocity at all... 
> can anyone confirm this? But it has an "accent" parameter 
> that lets you easily play with 
> dynamics.

The MachineDrum responds to incoming velocity midi data only. One must
use Parameter Lock + Level to simulate dynamics in a pattern.

-M@

--- Matt Picone <matman@...> wrote:
> > I'm contemplating a Machinedrum, but I have a
> couple questions:
> > 3. Has anyone done a comparison between the
> Machinedrum and
> > the Waldorf Rack Attack?
> Yes. Apples and oranges. 

I really agonized over this one last fall, especially
as A) I could go to a local music store and touch the
Rack Attack & B) the Rack Attack then was $650 & the
Machinedrum $1200.  But as much as I loved what heard
coming out of the RA, everybody was so raving on MD. 
I had the rest of the kit I wanted in my studio but
creativity in drums was the weak spot and only fresh
and exceptional would do.  

Hell, I wanted them both - yeah! But not at the
expense of a divorce.

I hit a "compromise".  I got them both.  And I'm still
married (16 years, poor girl).  

I bought the MD in hardware & the Rack Attack in
software - $1200 & $135.  I'm not a big software fan
(not a flame, just the way I'm wired), but the SW RA
is easier than most to use and I cannot tell any
difference in sound compared to the HW.  Honest.

I'm real happy with the solution.  What I thought was
a compromise isn't.  They do complement each other
nicely.  

And you know the biggest lesson I learned - software
is a whooole lot easier to hide than hardware. Once
again, creative and exceptional music is being made
during the day and during the night!



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Eric Jacobsen wrote:
> 
> And you know the biggest lesson I learned - software
> is a whooole lot easier to hide than hardware. 

Hehehe... So that's why you're still married ;-))

Gert
www.waveworld.tv

Attack VSTi has a great user interface (virtual knobs galore).  When 
they release a hardware Attack that looks like the VSTi (real knobs 
galore), I'll be first in line.  Until then, I'll stick with my MD.

-gerald

--- In elektron-users@yahoogroups.com, Eric Jacobsen 
<eajacobsen@y...> wrote:

> I bought the MD in hardware & the Rack Attack in
> software - $1200 & $135.  I'm not a big software fan
> (not a flame, just the way I'm wired), but the SW RA
> is easier than most to use and I cannot tell any
> difference in sound compared to the HW.  Honest.

The why is love - but you don't need to meet me to
appreciate it needs all help it can get ;-0)

--- Gert van Santen <g.vansanten@...> wrote:
> Eric Jacobsen wrote:
> > 
> > And you know the biggest lesson I learned -
> software
> > is a whooole lot easier to hide than hardware. 
> 
> Hehehe... So that's why you're still married ;-))
> 
> Gert
> www.waveworld.tv


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After 8 months with the MD and the VST Rack Attack,
for me I know I made the right choice.  When sculpting
sound every peice of kit has it's unique merits and
there's plenty with lots of knobs that are capable of
amazing sound, but can are proportionally a real
drudge to get there. 

For me nothing I have is as easy to use and propels me
as quick down a creative thread as the MD. Which is
why I'm quivering to try the MonoMachine (and brings
me back to that orginal dillema of how to explain
another piece of hardware ;-)

Here's a twist on UI usability - my 6 year old
daughter loves to come in and "participate" when I
work.  I let her use the MD.  Now she's 6 - but what
never ceases to amaze me is how much she can do with
the MD.  I've actually kept a number of her raw
patterns and built from them.  She does some things
(naively, accidently, randomly, on purpose?) that
would never occur to me.

How many pieces of kit do you own that could pass a 6
year-old usability test?

--- oldmanfury <erinys@...> wrote:

> When they release a hardware Attack that looks like
> the VSTi (real knobs 
> galore), I'll be first in line.  Until then, I'll
> stick with my MD.
> 
> -gerald
> 
> --- In elektron-users@yahoogroups.com, Eric Jacobsen
> 
> <eajacobsen@y...> wrote:
> > I bought the MD in hardware & the Rack Attack in
> > software - $1200 & $135.  I'm not a big software
> fan
> > (not a flame, just the way I'm wired), but the SW
> RA
> > is easier than most to use and I cannot tell any
> > difference in sound compared to the HW.  Honest.
> 
> 
> 


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Hi,

I'm thinking about getting a machinedrum for myself.  My primary 
concern is about how easy or difficult it is to save and recall 
projects (songs, patterns and kits) at the drop of a hat.  I write a 
lot of music and if the machinedrum is going to participate in the 
process it is going to need to be quick on its feet.  (Current 
duties are filled by Reason's Redrum, which has the benefit of being 
able to open with one file every aspect of a song's drum part.)

I've read the manual (downloaded from the Elektron web site), but I 
missed any information that might have been in there about 
archiving, loading, and arranging patches (in synth terminology) on 
the machinedrum.

If someone could explain not only what it is technically capable of, 
but how you deal with the issue in the real world, it would be 
immensely helpful.

Thanks.

> If someone could explain not only what it is technically capable 
of, 
> but how you deal with the issue in the real world, it would be 
> immensely helpful.

This is really hard to explain, because people have so many different 
ways of working. There are some nice things in MD which could help 
you. For example you  can trigger patterns with midi notes. This 
means that you can just send a midi note from reason to Md to tell 
which pattern it should play. (you can read more about these from 
manual)

I myself you it in song-mode, because you can do some nice twists 
there, what you cannot do with other boxes. Then I sync it to 
sequencer with midi-clock. 

You can also save kits, songs and so on with sys-ex send and recall 
them (even in different slots).

One thing that needs to be said, is that if you are used to make your 
beats with computer and mouse, you will propably love this kind of 
tactile control (I know I do!). I can say this kind of work method 
can be very creative, but I'm not sure if I can say that from 
computer and mouse, it's more like working...

Bottom line is that it is easier to work with MD than other 
hardwareboxes, but it's always a little bit harder than software. But 
working like this you gain something else than just quantative and 
technical things(like in software and computers), it's more creative 
and closer to music. It feels like making music, not programming it.

Toni.

It feels like making music, not
> programming it.
> 
> Toni.



EXACTLY! using software is fun too but using the MD
makes you feel like you really good when u sit there
and treak those knobs and I remeber a show I did using
software, the crowd was like ok when you gonna tweak
some knobs so then on I started taking some of my
hardware to make the shows more intresting. :)


	
		
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I must say I am very happy with the MD. It's really an advanced piece of gear you really feel there are some CPU inside of it. I'm not gonna tell everything but  you get it and use it a few days then you feel the power, you will understand :-P
some functions like parameter lock are really handy and made to help you fighting the waste of time.
you should have a look at the pdf manual, at the Elektron's website.
Alex

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Yeah and about the song mode, I don't know any hardware machine with such a powerfull one !
alex

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- tahvenaine2002 <toni.ahvenainen@...> wrote:
>  > If someone could explain not only what it is
> technically capable 
> of, 
> > but how you deal with the issue in the real world,
> it would be 
> > immensely helpful.
> 
> This is really hard to explain, because people have
> so many different 
> ways of working. There are some nice things in MD
> which could help 
> you. For example you  can trigger patterns with midi
> notes. This 
> means that you can just send a midi note from reason
> to Md to tell 
> which pattern it should play. (you can read more
> about these from 
> manual)
> 
> I myself you it in song-mode, because you can do
> some nice twists 
> there, what you cannot do with other boxes. Then I
> sync it to 
> sequencer with midi-clock. 
> 
> You can also save kits, songs and so on with sys-ex
> send and recall 
> them (even in different slots).
> 
> One thing that needs to be said, is that if you are
> used to make your 
> beats with computer and mouse, you will propably
> love this kind of 
> tactile control (I know I do!). I can say this kind
> of work method 
> can be very creative, but I'm not sure if I can say
> that from 
> computer and mouse, it's more like working...
> 
> Bottom line is that it is easier to work with MD
> than other 
> hardwareboxes, but it's always a little bit harder
> than software. But 
> working like this you gain something else than just
> quantative and 
> technical things(like in software and computers),
> it's more creative 
> and closer to music. It feels like making music, not
> programming it.
> 
> Toni.
> 
> 
> 



	
		
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On Jun 11, 2004, at 4:58 AM, andyklug wrote:

> I'm thinking about getting a machinedrum for myself.  My primary
>  concern is about how easy or difficult it is to save and recall
>  projects (songs, patterns and kits) at the drop of a hat.

songs, patterns and kits are somewhat separate entities, but they
can be linked together as well. if you're in extended mode (and
most people are 99% of the time), then a pattern has a kit
associated with it. if you've created a song, then you've
constructed it out of patterns (which have kits associated with
them). so if yo load a song and press play, it will play your
song with the appropriate patterns and kits - you don't have
to load these separately once you've loaded the song. so
there's no fuss, really.

there is one large caveat, however: if you do a sysex dump
of a song/pattern/kit and then plan on reloading and playing
it later, you may have some work to do before you can play it.
for example, suppose that prior to the sysex dump your
patterns resided in locations A01 through A08. so you
programmed a song based on those pattern locations. then
you did a sysex dump of the song, patterns and the kit(s)
used.  you then erased patterns A01 through A08 and
wrote a new song there.  now when you do a sysex dump
of the old song *back* to the MD, you can choose which
location to move the kit, patterns and song to.  so now
suppose you move the patterns to C04 through C11.  when
you load the song, it will try to play the patterns in locations
A01 through A08, instead of C04 through C11.  so you now
have to either erase what's in A01-A08 and copy your
C04-C11 patterns there or you have to edit the song and
change the pattern numbers (which can be time consuming
if your song is complicated).

needless to say, this can be a tedious situation if you have
to deal with this problem a lot.  if you seldom dump the
memory of your MD (or you dump and reload the entire
memory at once) then you won't run into this problem.  or
you may just have to deal with it on rare occasions, like
when your pattern memory's full.

that said, you should keep in mind that while this may
detract from the "quick on its feet" aspect of the MD, the very
nature of the MD when writing songs more than makes up
for this.  you can work *very* quickly with its interface to
create and sequence excellent sounds - quickly enough
that I've improvised with it and live musicians and had no
problem keeping up. and while software (and particularly
"all in one" software studios like Reason, which you are
used to) may be able to recall all of your settings at the
click of a virtual button, their manner of working
is not nearly as enjoyable or inspiring as the MD's is (or
the Monomachine for that matter).

I hope that this ridiculously long email answers your
questions :-)
Joe

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thanks everyone for your comments.  A couple of more questions:

The fact that you can load patterns into a different bank than it 
was originally located, but the song can't automatically find the 
correct patterns seems a little irritating.  This seems like 
something that could be fixed with an OS update, though.  Do you 
think Elektron is able to make those sorts of improvements to their 
instrument?  (Access would, for sure...)

Another thing: 

One of the things that I like in the manual is the fact that you can 
define any of the 16 machines to be a MIDI trigger for an external 
device.  Also the ability to trigger chords (by defining the root 
and up to 2 other notes)...very neat.  My question is, can the LFO's 
modulate the MIDI parameters (i.e., MIDI note, or chord note, or 
velocity, or whatever)?  Also does the "parameter lock" method of 
recording changes  to the machine also apply to all of the MIDI 
parameters?  (I.e. could you manually program in a melodic part to 
be triggered in an external MIDI device with one machine by using 
the parameter lock system on the MIDI note parameter?)

Thanks again for all you wrote, it was read with interest...





--- In elektron-users@yahoogroups.com, Joseph Melnyk <jmelnyk@c...> 
wrote:

> On Jun 11, 2004, at 4:58 AM, andyklug wrote:
> 
> > I'm thinking about getting a machinedrum for myself.  My primary
> >  concern is about how easy or difficult it is to save and recall
> >  projects (songs, patterns and kits) at the drop of a hat.
> 
> songs, patterns and kits are somewhat separate entities, but they
> can be linked together as well. if you're in extended mode (and
> most people are 99% of the time), then a pattern has a kit
> associated with it. if you've created a song, then you've
> constructed it out of patterns (which have kits associated with
> them). so if yo load a song and press play, it will play your
> song with the appropriate patterns and kits - you don't have
> to load these separately once you've loaded the song. so
> there's no fuss, really.
> 
> there is one large caveat, however: if you do a sysex dump
> of a song/pattern/kit and then plan on reloading and playing
> it later, you may have some work to do before you can play it.
> for example, suppose that prior to the sysex dump your
> patterns resided in locations A01 through A08. so you
> programmed a song based on those pattern locations. then
> you did a sysex dump of the song, patterns and the kit(s)
> used.  you then erased patterns A01 through A08 and
> wrote a new song there.  now when you do a sysex dump
> of the old song *back* to the MD, you can choose which
> location to move the kit, patterns and song to.  so now
> suppose you move the patterns to C04 through C11.  when
> you load the song, it will try to play the patterns in locations
> A01 through A08, instead of C04 through C11.  so you now
> have to either erase what's in A01-A08 and copy your
> C04-C11 patterns there or you have to edit the song and
> change the pattern numbers (which can be time consuming
> if your song is complicated).
> 
> needless to say, this can be a tedious situation if you have
> to deal with this problem a lot.  if you seldom dump the
> memory of your MD (or you dump and reload the entire
> memory at once) then you won't run into this problem.  or
> you may just have to deal with it on rare occasions, like
> when your pattern memory's full.
> 
> that said, you should keep in mind that while this may
> detract from the "quick on its feet" aspect of the MD, the very
> nature of the MD when writing songs more than makes up
> for this.  you can work *very* quickly with its interface to
> create and sequence excellent sounds - quickly enough
> that I've improvised with it and live musicians and had no
> problem keeping up. and while software (and particularly
> "all in one" software studios like Reason, which you are
> used to) may be able to recall all of your settings at the
> click of a virtual button, their manner of working
> is not nearly as enjoyable or inspiring as the MD's is (or
> the Monomachine for that matter).
> 
> I hope that this ridiculously long email answers your
> questions :-)
> Joe
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I don't think the song/pattern thing is much of a problem.  If you
just save everything together when it's all filled seems to be the
best way.  Also you could save your songs and patterns together and
archive them so you know where to load them.  Access would, maybe.  I
don't think it could be fixed (as it is not broken) because of the
whole layout and memory etc.  Like I said I don't think it's that much
of a problem.  I haven't seen people complain about it.

What you said about the MIDI machines are possible.  All except using
lfos on the midi notes, I'm not sure about velocity, but Midi cc#s for
sure.  It has a pretty much fully functioning step sequencer.  All I
use is the Machinedrum, an Indigo 2, and an ms2000.


--- In elektron-users@yahoogroups.com, "andyklug" <andyklug@y...> wrote:

> Thanks everyone for your comments.  A couple of more questions:
> 
> The fact that you can load patterns into a different bank than it 
> was originally located, but the song can't automatically find the 
> correct patterns seems a little irritating.  This seems like 
> something that could be fixed with an OS update, though.  Do you 
> think Elektron is able to make those sorts of improvements to their 
> instrument?  (Access would, for sure...)
> 
> Another thing: 
> 
> One of the things that I like in the manual is the fact that you can 
> define any of the 16 machines to be a MIDI trigger for an external 
> device.  Also the ability to trigger chords (by defining the root 
> and up to 2 other notes)...very neat.  My question is, can the LFO's 
> modulate the MIDI parameters (i.e., MIDI note, or chord note, or 
> velocity, or whatever)?  Also does the "parameter lock" method of 
> recording changes  to the machine also apply to all of the MIDI 
> parameters?  (I.e. could you manually program in a melodic part to 
> be triggered in an external MIDI device with one machine by using 
> the parameter lock system on the MIDI note parameter?)
> 
> Thanks again for all you wrote, it was read with interest...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --- In elektron-users@yahoogroups.com, Joseph Melnyk <jmelnyk@c...> 
> wrote:
> > On Jun 11, 2004, at 4:58 AM, andyklug wrote:
> > 
> > > I'm thinking about getting a machinedrum for myself.  My primary
> > >  concern is about how easy or difficult it is to save and recall
> > >  projects (songs, patterns and kits) at the drop of a hat.
> > 
> > songs, patterns and kits are somewhat separate entities, but they
> > can be linked together as well. if you're in extended mode (and
> > most people are 99% of the time), then a pattern has a kit
> > associated with it. if you've created a song, then you've
> > constructed it out of patterns (which have kits associated with
> > them). so if yo load a song and press play, it will play your
> > song with the appropriate patterns and kits - you don't have
> > to load these separately once you've loaded the song. so
> > there's no fuss, really.
> > 
> > there is one large caveat, however: if you do a sysex dump
> > of a song/pattern/kit and then plan on reloading and playing
> > it later, you may have some work to do before you can play it.
> > for example, suppose that prior to the sysex dump your
> > patterns resided in locations A01 through A08. so you
> > programmed a song based on those pattern locations. then
> > you did a sysex dump of the song, patterns and the kit(s)
> > used.  you then erased patterns A01 through A08 and
> > wrote a new song there.  now when you do a sysex dump
> > of the old song *back* to the MD, you can choose which
> > location to move the kit, patterns and song to.  so now
> > suppose you move the patterns to C04 through C11.  when
> > you load the song, it will try to play the patterns in locations
> > A01 through A08, instead of C04 through C11.  so you now
> > have to either erase what's in A01-A08 and copy your
> > C04-C11 patterns there or you have to edit the song and
> > change the pattern numbers (which can be time consuming
> > if your song is complicated).
> > 
> > needless to say, this can be a tedious situation if you have
> > to deal with this problem a lot.  if you seldom dump the
> > memory of your MD (or you dump and reload the entire
> > memory at once) then you won't run into this problem.  or
> > you may just have to deal with it on rare occasions, like
> > when your pattern memory's full.
> > 
> > that said, you should keep in mind that while this may
> > detract from the "quick on its feet" aspect of the MD, the very
> > nature of the MD when writing songs more than makes up
> > for this.  you can work *very* quickly with its interface to
> > create and sequence excellent sounds - quickly enough
> > that I've improvised with it and live musicians and had no
> > problem keeping up. and while software (and particularly
> > "all in one" software studios like Reason, which you are
> > used to) may be able to recall all of your settings at the
> > click of a virtual button, their manner of working
> > is not nearly as enjoyable or inspiring as the MD's is (or
> > the Monomachine for that matter).
> > 
> > I hope that this ridiculously long email answers your
> > questions :-)
> > Joe
> > 
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On Jun 13, 2004, at 9:34 AM, endlessnessisticman wrote:

>  I
>  don't think it could be fixed (as it is not broken) because of the
>  whole layout and memory etc.  Like I said I don't think it's that much
>  of a problem.  I haven't seen people complain about it.

right, nobody's really talked about it. I'm not really sure why.  I've
only recently run into it, since I've been writing songs which take
more pattern memory.  So after a while I have to dump the
memory and I know that if I want to reload it for a show or
something, I'll have to be careful what I load where.

it's not a big problem, really; and I know I'll probably only deal
with it when I want to put together stuff for shows. I was only
mentioning it because it's a minor niggle and someone who
is worried about always loading songs immediately may be
concerned by it.

oh and to answer the original question: yes, you can use
parameter locks with the MIDI machines. which means that
you can program a melody for your external device to play as
well as lock CC#'s for it. and as mentioned, the MIDI machines'
LFO's can be used to modulate external parameters with the
only limitation being that note values can't be modulated.

Joe


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]