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Designing sound. Was: "Celebrity Emax, etc."

Designing sound. Was: "Celebrity Emax, etc."

2009-07-10 by ss

Was: "Celebrity Emaxes..."  etc.

Hi Everybody!  :-)

While you guys continue that thread can I start a new one...?  It's  
related and I think it's what
we're really after here.  It's about designing great sound.

I saw the "Violator" concert.  I owned an Emax at the time (and still  
have it and use it).  Yes, DM
had piles of Emax IIs on stage for the concert.

But what this is really all about, the thread, is designing great  
sound -- isn't it?

A better question would be WHO sat around and designed the sound that  
DM played on those Emax IIs
in concert, etc. I think.

My guess is that these guys were all designing on an EIII and -- other  
gear -- and dumping onto Emax(s) for performances.
I think I can hear Spectral Synthesis work on "Violator" for example  
-- unless I'm imagining it (which I may very well be!)

What I think is strange is that people dump their gear in this way...   
Many of the "popular" artists today are sending somebody
out to purchase all of this "vintage" gear and use it for it's unique  
sound capability -- so why dump it in the first place on eBay?

Yeah, yeah -- the Native Instruments sound is hot right now -- so  
what???!

As an example, an old friend of mine designed sound for a large film  
before I'd met him.  When I asked him about his sound designs
he said to me:  "I was using a lot of DX7 sounds at the time."  I was  
REALLY surprised by that, but then I could hear the DX7, but
it really wasn't a DX7 anymore.  He'd multi-tracked the sounds, sped  
them up and slowed them down with tape, re-recorded and
processed the sounds, so the source was the DX7 but the end product  
was NOT a DX7 in the film it was my friends own ear and
way that he heard things.  It was his Sound Design artistry.

Isn't that what we're really talking about here? (Or should be talking  
about?)

Who cares who had what keyboard!  LOL!!  That's like worrying about  
which Macintosh Steve Jobs used!
It's rather absurd, isn't it?!

So can I start a thread about Sound Design and what makes you love and  
cherish your Emax so much, rather than what
rock star used to use your keyboard back in the 80's?  We can have two  
threads.  Continue the old one and start a new one?

(I don't care a god-dxxx about Roland Orzaball -- or whatever his name  
was!)  ;-)  :-)
But if you do god-bless you!  That's what you like!  :-)

So let me start-off the thread by where our Jammie Emma left-off by  
saying that it's the Emax/EMU filters that can make the
difference and give that beautiful incredible sound to a sample that  
you don't hear elsewhere.  I thought that was a brilliant
observation by him and quite true in my experience!  Yes, I love the  
EIII, EIV and Emax because of the filters.

And on the Emax HD SE
I have I love the Spectral Synthesis feature because one can come-up  
with some remarkable samples with experimentation. Also,
the TM (Transform Multiplication) engine!  Now that makes for some  
great discussion!  Yes, they take far too long to use with 1 MG
of RAM and processing time!  :-)  But go and make yourself a cup of tea!

I'll never give-up my Emax HD SE.  Period.

Steven

PS - No insult to anybody!  If you like your Jimi Hendrix Strat --  
cool!  ;-)  It's all great!

***************************************
- This communication is confidential to the parties it is intended to  
serve -

Truth does not fear investigation.

"There are no secrets that time does not reveal."  -- Jean Racine (1669)

Re: [emax] Designing sound. Was: "Celebrity Emax, etc."

2009-07-10 by Brooks Mosher

there's a lot of people out there with all the top high end cool gear and
don't do a damn thing with it..  then there are people with whatever they
could get their hands on and make amazing music.  so, IMO the pendulum
swings towards the artist, not the medium.   sure there's gear out there
than can do certain things really well and if that's your thing go with it,
but at the end of the day it's really about how you use it.

just my thoughts...

cheers

b

On Fri, Jul 10, 2009 at 5:50 PM, ss <ssws1@...> wrote:

>
>
> Was: "Celebrity Emaxes..." etc.
>
> Hi Everybody! :-)
>
> While you guys continue that thread can I start a new one...? It's
> related and I think it's what
> we're really after here. It's about designing great sound.
>
> I saw the "Violator" concert. I owned an Emax at the time (and still
> have it and use it). Yes, DM
> had piles of Emax IIs on stage for the concert.
>
> But what this is really all about, the thread, is designing great
> sound -- isn't it?
>
> A better question would be WHO sat around and designed the sound that
> DM played on those Emax IIs
> in concert, etc. I think.
>
> My guess is that these guys were all designing on an EIII and -- other
> gear -- and dumping onto Emax(s) for performances.
> I think I can hear Spectral Synthesis work on "Violator" for example
> -- unless I'm imagining it (which I may very well be!)
>
> What I think is strange is that people dump their gear in this way...
> Many of the "popular" artists today are sending somebody
> out to purchase all of this "vintage" gear and use it for it's unique
> sound capability -- so why dump it in the first place on eBay?
>
> Yeah, yeah -- the Native Instruments sound is hot right now -- so
> what???!
>
> As an example, an old friend of mine designed sound for a large film
> before I'd met him. When I asked him about his sound designs
> he said to me: "I was using a lot of DX7 sounds at the time." I was
> REALLY surprised by that, but then I could hear the DX7, but
> it really wasn't a DX7 anymore. He'd multi-tracked the sounds, sped
> them up and slowed them down with tape, re-recorded and
> processed the sounds, so the source was the DX7 but the end product
> was NOT a DX7 in the film it was my friends own ear and
> way that he heard things. It was his Sound Design artistry.
>
> Isn't that what we're really talking about here? (Or should be talking
> about?)
>
> Who cares who had what keyboard! LOL!! That's like worrying about
> which Macintosh Steve Jobs used!
> It's rather absurd, isn't it?!
>
> So can I start a thread about Sound Design and what makes you love and
> cherish your Emax so much, rather than what
> rock star used to use your keyboard back in the 80's? We can have two
> threads. Continue the old one and start a new one?
>
> (I don't care a god-dxxx about Roland Orzaball -- or whatever his name
> was!) ;-) :-)
> But if you do god-bless you! That's what you like! :-)
>
> So let me start-off the thread by where our Jammie Emma left-off by
> saying that it's the Emax/EMU filters that can make the
> difference and give that beautiful incredible sound to a sample that
> you don't hear elsewhere. I thought that was a brilliant
> observation by him and quite true in my experience! Yes, I love the
> EIII, EIV and Emax because of the filters.
>
> And on the Emax HD SE
> I have I love the Spectral Synthesis feature because one can come-up
> with some remarkable samples with experimentation. Also,
> the TM (Transform Multiplication) engine! Now that makes for some
> great discussion! Yes, they take far too long to use with 1 MG
> of RAM and processing time! :-) But go and make yourself a cup of tea!
>
> I'll never give-up my Emax HD SE. Period.
>
> Steven
>
> PS - No insult to anybody! If you like your Jimi Hendrix Strat --
> cool! ;-) It's all great!
>
> ***************************************
> - This communication is confidential to the parties it is intended to
> serve -
>
> Truth does not fear investigation.
>
> "There are no secrets that time does not reveal." -- Jean Racine (1669)
>
>  
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [emax] Designing sound. Was: "Celebrity Emax, etc."

2009-07-11 by jammie

YES THATS RIGHT the best sounds i have made are from single cycle waves 1 sample of a sample 

they come in different sizes per note a4 a single cycle sample is 100 samples they loop perfectly and act just like oscillators but with the addition that there are thousands of different sounding ones other than the basic saw square and sin triangle 

there are many additive ones and these can be used in the 2 layers to produce even more additive ones 

there are 1000,s of fm 1 and most soft synths of today aswell as hardware use them the virus has a bunch of them and the wave table synths are made up of spectra of these type wave forms

the se has this spectra synthesis option were you add the different spectra in sequence its a pity that they did not impiliment wave modulation of the single cycle spectra

i also own a EII/ EIII/ EMAX SE HD/ EMULATOR4 ULTRA

I OWN MANY ENSONIQS

and roland 

my favourite sampler is the korg dss1 it has a tiny memory even smaller than the emax 256k

but it has hard sync of sample sounds and there aint no other hardware or software synth ever been produced that implimented it

and you get weird and wonderful sounds by using single cycle sounds and sync

native kontakt is good but it makes you lazy as you sample a synths whole performance and theres not much sample programming involved

the key is use the synthesis section just like analog synths but with a bigger vast sampled oscillator section to choose from

some of the best pad and synthscapes come from analog modular synths enough said 

use the force luke use the source the synth section and modulate
Show quoted textHide quoted text
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: ss 
  To: emax@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Friday, July 10, 2009 11:50 PM
  Subject: [emax] Designing sound. Was: "Celebrity Emax, etc."





  Was: "Celebrity Emaxes..." etc.

  Hi Everybody! :-)

  While you guys continue that thread can I start a new one...? It's 
  related and I think it's what
  we're really after here. It's about designing great sound.

  I saw the "Violator" concert. I owned an Emax at the time (and still 
  have it and use it). Yes, DM
  had piles of Emax IIs on stage for the concert.

  But what this is really all about, the thread, is designing great 
  sound -- isn't it?

  A better question would be WHO sat around and designed the sound that 
  DM played on those Emax IIs
  in concert, etc. I think.

  My guess is that these guys were all designing on an EIII and -- other 
  gear -- and dumping onto Emax(s) for performances.
  I think I can hear Spectral Synthesis work on "Violator" for example 
  -- unless I'm imagining it (which I may very well be!)

  What I think is strange is that people dump their gear in this way... 
  Many of the "popular" artists today are sending somebody
  out to purchase all of this "vintage" gear and use it for it's unique 
  sound capability -- so why dump it in the first place on eBay?

  Yeah, yeah -- the Native Instruments sound is hot right now -- so 
  what???!

  As an example, an old friend of mine designed sound for a large film 
  before I'd met him. When I asked him about his sound designs
  he said to me: "I was using a lot of DX7 sounds at the time." I was 
  REALLY surprised by that, but then I could hear the DX7, but
  it really wasn't a DX7 anymore. He'd multi-tracked the sounds, sped 
  them up and slowed them down with tape, re-recorded and
  processed the sounds, so the source was the DX7 but the end product 
  was NOT a DX7 in the film it was my friends own ear and
  way that he heard things. It was his Sound Design artistry.

  Isn't that what we're really talking about here? (Or should be talking 
  about?)

  Who cares who had what keyboard! LOL!! That's like worrying about 
  which Macintosh Steve Jobs used!
  It's rather absurd, isn't it?!

  So can I start a thread about Sound Design and what makes you love and 
  cherish your Emax so much, rather than what
  rock star used to use your keyboard back in the 80's? We can have two 
  threads. Continue the old one and start a new one?

  (I don't care a god-dxxx about Roland Orzaball -- or whatever his name 
  was!) ;-) :-)
  But if you do god-bless you! That's what you like! :-)

  So let me start-off the thread by where our Jammie Emma left-off by 
  saying that it's the Emax/EMU filters that can make the
  difference and give that beautiful incredible sound to a sample that 
  you don't hear elsewhere. I thought that was a brilliant
  observation by him and quite true in my experience! Yes, I love the 
  EIII, EIV and Emax because of the filters.

  And on the Emax HD SE
  I have I love the Spectral Synthesis feature because one can come-up 
  with some remarkable samples with experimentation. Also,
  the TM (Transform Multiplication) engine! Now that makes for some 
  great discussion! Yes, they take far too long to use with 1 MG
  of RAM and processing time! :-) But go and make yourself a cup of tea!

  I'll never give-up my Emax HD SE. Period.

  Steven

  PS - No insult to anybody! If you like your Jimi Hendrix Strat -- 
  cool! ;-) It's all great!

  ***************************************
  - This communication is confidential to the parties it is intended to 
  serve -

  Truth does not fear investigation.

  "There are no secrets that time does not reveal." -- Jean Racine (1669)



  


------------------------------------------------------------------------------



  No virus found in this incoming message.
  Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 
  Version: 8.5.387 / Virus Database: 270.13.10/2231 - Release Date: 07/11/09 05:57:00


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [emax] Designing sound. Was: "Celebrity Emax, etc."

2009-07-11 by ss

This is what gave he Prophet VS the amazing sound it had along with a  
couple of other things!
Man, Jammie!  You seriously know your stuff!
Listen to what this guy says folks!  I've worked with the best in the  
business and it's hard to find
anybody who knows engineering and great sound like this.

Thank you Jammie!

What would be instructive would be us discussing how we do that. And  
for some of the folks
on the list who don't have the tools or knowledge or experience how to  
step-up.

On software making one "lazy": words more true were never spoken.

I own Melodyne Studio (NOT the plugin!) and it is a brilliant work of  
genius for designing sound,
doing things with audio, synthesis, samples, and anything and  
everything one could possibly
imagine!  Unfortunately Celemony tells me that nobody is using the  
software as I'm using it.  And
what that tell me is that everybody is using their great technology  
for "note-nudging" lazy performances
and people who have no voice nor talent as musicians!  That's where  
the big money is!  What a shame!

Now look at Ableton Live.  It was once this hot tool and environment  
that was full of life and possibilities.
But there is this disease where a great company with great ideas and  
great products falls ill with and it
a disease that's all about big money where the company becomes a  
corporation and then suddenly
the creativity starts to go out of the window.

Since this is the Emax list EMU started to die with the Proteus:  that  
was the beginning of the end.  And
I have to say nobody bought their great products -- what sold was the  
Proteus.  When Creative Labs bought
them, then everything really went!

When the company become the corporation and music and art are thrown- 
out the window for profit it's over.


On 11 Jul 2009, at 01:56, jammie wrote:

>
>
> YES THATS RIGHT the best sounds i have made are from single cycle  
> waves 1 sample of a sample
>
> they come in different sizes per note a4 a single cycle sample is  
> 100 samples they loop perfectly and act just like oscillators but  
> with the addition that there are thousands of different sounding  
> ones other than the basic saw square and sin triangle
>
> there are many additive ones and these can be used in the 2 layers  
> to produce even more additive ones
>
> there are 1000,s of fm 1 and most soft synths of today aswell as  
> hardware use them the virus has a bunch of them and the wave table  
> synths are made up of spectra of these type wave forms
>
> the se has this spectra synthesis option were you add the different  
> spectra in sequence its a pity that they did not impiliment wave  
> modulation of the single cycle spectra
>
> i also own a EII/ EIII/ EMAX SE HD/ EMULATOR4 ULTRA
>
> I OWN MANY ENSONIQS
>
> and roland
>
> my favourite sampler is the korg dss1 it has a tiny memory even  
> smaller than the emax 256k
>
> but it has hard sync of sample sounds and there aint no other  
> hardware or software synth ever been produced that implimented it
>
> and you get weird and wonderful sounds by using single cycle sounds  
> and sync
>
> native kontakt is good but it makes you lazy as you sample a synths  
> whole performance and theres not much sample programming involved
>
> the key is use the synthesis section just like analog synths but  
> with a bigger vast sampled oscillator section to choose from
>
> some of the best pad and synthscapes come from analog modular synths  
> enough said
>
> use the force luke use the source the synth section and modulate
>




***************************************
- This communication is confidential to the parties it is intended to  
serve -

Truth does not fear investigation.

"There are no secrets that time does not reveal."  -- Jean Racine (1669)







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: Designing sound. Was: "Celebrity Emax, etc."

2009-07-12 by John

Yes, it was really a tangent that frankly I don't get to discuss with many people without them getting an odd look on their face and walking off.

Sound Design:  I love spending HOURS on sound mod and creation.  I do feel that it helps me to take a step back and use the older equipment since everything being used in modern music is sterile and used by everyone everywhere.  I think that's where something Depeche said in an interview really stuck with me for long and got me on this road.  Make every sound your own and unique.  Don't use presets when you can tweak or make something from scratch and that's what do or at least attempt.

Even if I use a 909 kick in something I can't help but mess with the pitch or release or filter it someway so I can't recognize it as just one of 50 909 kick samples everybody else has.  Turn on the radio now and EVERYONE uses the same sounds in their music and it's maddening!!  It's like Taco Bell for sound:  The Menu: Cheese (909 samples) Beef (Roland Pianos) and Tortilla to wrap it all in (Pro Tools).  

I sometimes just want a simple 4 track cassette and my Emax!  That's it!

Re: [emax] Re: Designing sound. Was: "Celebrity Emax, etc."

2009-07-12 by jammie

yes i find that lets have that moog sample lets have that obx sample 

its easy to create in old samplers with out the moog or the ob,s they use analog oscillators 

thats how they can emulate them with va synths 

they take a sin wave or triangle wave a saw wave  or sqaure wave and they mix them together then they go to the filter then they go to the amp being controlled by the envolopes and lfo

now the emax and other samplers have the same synth section as all samplers of the day were based on analog synthesis for there synth section they just used digital oscillators which were better as they did not drift

moogs are good but not good for gigging as there oscillators drift to temeratue changes you could be playing a good lead solo then to have it start changeing in pitch in a funny way not good 

the other thing to remember when making sounds is if you are layering to saw or square or sin or tringle waves set each one to a different phase say 90o from each other thats what gives the beating sound of analog oscilators as each oscilator on the moogs or what ever synth you used would be slightly out of phase but this added to the caractor of the sound 

thats why they say digital is harsh 

but with single cycle wave you can do the same thing 
because that is what analog oscillators are they are electronic voltage signals repeated 1 voltage cycle at a time thats why they loop so well
Show quoted textHide quoted text
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: John 
  To: emax@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Sunday, July 12, 2009 5:04 AM
  Subject: [emax] Re: Designing sound. Was: "Celebrity Emax, etc."





  Yes, it was really a tangent that frankly I don't get to discuss with many people without them getting an odd look on their face and walking off.

  Sound Design: I love spending HOURS on sound mod and creation. I do feel that it helps me to take a step back and use the older equipment since everything being used in modern music is sterile and used by everyone everywhere. I think that's where something Depeche said in an interview really stuck with me for long and got me on this road. Make every sound your own and unique. Don't use presets when you can tweak or make something from scratch and that's what do or at least attempt.

  Even if I use a 909 kick in something I can't help but mess with the pitch or release or filter it someway so I can't recognize it as just one of 50 909 kick samples everybody else has. Turn on the radio now and EVERYONE uses the same sounds in their music and it's maddening!! It's like Taco Bell for sound: The Menu: Cheese (909 samples) Beef (Roland Pianos) and Tortilla to wrap it all in (Pro Tools). 

  I sometimes just want a simple 4 track cassette and my Emax! That's it!



  


------------------------------------------------------------------------------



  No virus found in this incoming message.
  Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 
  Version: 8.5.387 / Virus Database: 270.13.10/2231 - Release Date: 07/11/09 05:57:00


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [emax] Re: Designing sound. Was: "Celebrity Emax, etc."

2009-07-12 by Mike S

Completely agree John  -  on exactly the same wavelength

I have Mac's and a PC full of VST's but all the sounds everyone has!!

I am after an Emax 1 for its grainy and analog filters and to sound a little "different" to everyone else..

With 3 x Mac's and software, plus outboard, I sometimes think i would prefer an Emax and 4-track to go back to basics and work on "sound" again!

Is the Emax easy to program sounds from say a sample chord? ie: sample a chord from a soundtrack and tweak to get a new unheard sound with the filters?



________________________________
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: John <jrb1864@...>
To: emax@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, 12 July, 2009 5:04:52
Subject: [emax] Re: Designing sound.  Was: "Celebrity Emax, etc."





Yes, it was really a tangent that frankly I don't get to discuss with many people without them getting an odd look on their face and walking off.

Sound Design:  I love spending HOURS on sound mod and creation.  I do feel that it helps me to take a step back and use the older equipment since everything being used in modern music is sterile and used by everyone everywhere.  I think that's where something Depeche said in an interview really stuck with me for long and got me on this road.  Make every sound your own and unique.  Don't use presets when you can tweak or make something from scratch and that's what do or at least attempt.

Even if I use a 909 kick in something I can't help but mess with the pitch or release or filter it someway so I can't recognize it as just one of 50 909 kick samples everybody else has.  Turn on the radio now and EVERYONE uses the same sounds in their music and it's maddening!!  It's like Taco Bell for sound:  The Menu: Cheese (909 samples) Beef (Roland Pianos) and Tortilla to wrap it all in (Pro Tools). 

I sometimes just want a simple 4 track cassette and my Emax!  That's it!





      

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [emax] Re: Designing sound. Was: "Celebrity Emax, etc."

2009-07-12 by jammie

yes as long as the multisample does not exceed the 512k limit when converted to 12bit-8bit compression format of thre emax1

i still use all my samplers and synths and still use an analog desk i have a digital desk that i use for sampling of my analog gear which go through analog compressors and equalizers and effects units

then i sample them in the comp and transfer them back either through midi or scsi the only thing i use my comp for is sound design and a sequencer for midi i dont use the hard disk recording i still go to dat
Show quoted textHide quoted text
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Mike S 
  To: emax@yahoogroups.com 
  Cc: jrb1864@... 
  Sent: Sunday, July 12, 2009 11:16 AM
  Subject: Re: [emax] Re: Designing sound. Was: "Celebrity Emax, etc."





  Completely agree John - on exactly the same wavelength

  I have Mac's and a PC full of VST's but all the sounds everyone has!!

  I am after an Emax 1 for its grainy and analog filters and to sound a little "different" to everyone else..

  With 3 x Mac's and software, plus outboard, I sometimes think i would prefer an Emax and 4-track to go back to basics and work on "sound" again!

  Is the Emax easy to program sounds from say a sample chord? ie: sample a chord from a soundtrack and tweak to get a new unheard sound with the filters?

  ________________________________
  From: John <jrb1864@...>
  To: emax@yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Sunday, 12 July, 2009 5:04:52
  Subject: [emax] Re: Designing sound. Was: "Celebrity Emax, etc."

  Yes, it was really a tangent that frankly I don't get to discuss with many people without them getting an odd look on their face and walking off.

  Sound Design: I love spending HOURS on sound mod and creation. I do feel that it helps me to take a step back and use the older equipment since everything being used in modern music is sterile and used by everyone everywhere. I think that's where something Depeche said in an interview really stuck with me for long and got me on this road. Make every sound your own and unique. Don't use presets when you can tweak or make something from scratch and that's what do or at least attempt.

  Even if I use a 909 kick in something I can't help but mess with the pitch or release or filter it someway so I can't recognize it as just one of 50 909 kick samples everybody else has. Turn on the radio now and EVERYONE uses the same sounds in their music and it's maddening!! It's like Taco Bell for sound: The Menu: Cheese (909 samples) Beef (Roland Pianos) and Tortilla to wrap it all in (Pro Tools). 

  I sometimes just want a simple 4 track cassette and my Emax! That's it!

  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



  


------------------------------------------------------------------------------



  No virus found in this incoming message.
  Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 
  Version: 8.5.387 / Virus Database: 270.13.11/2232 - Release Date: 07/11/09 17:56:00


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sound Design -- Was: "Celebrity Emax, etc."

2009-07-13 by ss

[Was: "Celebrity Emax, etc."]

Dear Jammie, Mike, and everybody --

I'm changing this thread subject to Sound Design since this has turned  
into
such a great discussion and to keep things clear.

There are a lot of things I'd like to talk about!  I hope you're all  
interested too!
We're off to a great start!

:-)


On 12 Jul 2009, at 11:21, jammie wrote:

>
>
> yes as long as the multisample does not exceed the 512k limit when  
> converted to 12bit-8bit compression format of thre emax1
>




***************************************
- This communication is confidential to the parties it is intended to  
serve -

Truth does not fear investigation.

"There are no secrets that time does not reveal."  -- Jean Racine (1669)







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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