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Thread

Stereo sample phase reversal?

2009-08-29 by Daniel Baum

Hi all,

Something wierd happened while I was recording with the Emax II and I'd really like to understand why.

Here is the setup I used (I suspect this is the problem)

The bass and flute parts are homemade samples. They are stereo samples, but they were sampled from a mono source. - a single output on my soundcard. The used a stereo cable running from a single output of the soundcard to the stereo in of the Emax II, and sampled in stereo. When I later recorded the bass line of the music, I recorded it in stereo, and it came out with the phase of one channel reversed:

http://www.type34.info/temp/My%20Compositions/basswave.jpg

I would have expected the two channels to be identical. Does anyone have any idea why this happened?

Thanks,


Daniel

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [emax] Stereo sample phase reversal?

2009-08-29 by Tristan

Hello Daniel,

I would say the output of your soundcard is balanced TRS, where the
tip and ring carry the same mono signal but with inverted polarity.
However, the Emax II sampling input uses the tip and ring of the TRS
plug as unbalanced left and right signals. So when you sampled in
stereo you were not getting stereo, just normal and inverted mono
signals. If you want to sample in stereo with your present cable then
try plugging into a stereo TRS output like a headphone socket.
Otherwise you will need a Y adapter plugged into the Emax II sampling
input so you can connect it to separate left and right unbalanced mono
signals.

Regards,

Tristan 

Saturday, August 29, 2009, 6:59:19 PM, you wrote:

DB>   
DB> Hi all,

DB> Something wierd happened while I was recording with the Emax II
DB> and I'd really like to understand why.

DB> Here is the setup I used (I suspect this is the problem)

DB> The bass and flute parts are homemade samples. They are stereo
DB> samples, but they were sampled from a mono source. - a single
DB> output on my soundcard. The used a stereo cable running from a
DB> single output of the soundcard to the stereo in of the Emax II,
DB> and sampled in stereo. When I later recorded the bass line of the
DB> music, I recorded it in stereo, and it came out with the phase of one channel reversed:

DB> http://www.type34.info/temp/My%20Compositions/basswave.jpg

DB> I would have expected the two channels to be identical. Does
DB> anyone have any idea why this happened?

DB> Thanks,

DB> Daniel

DB> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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Re: [emax] Stereo sample phase reversal?

2009-08-30 by Daniel Baum

Thanks, 

The correct Y-cable works, of course. I had no idea that that was how balanced outputs work, so hence the error.

D.




  Hello Daniel,

  I would say the output of your soundcard is balanced TRS, where the
  tip and ring carry the same mono signal but with inverted polarity.
  However, the Emax II sampling input uses the tip and ring of the TRS
  plug as unbalanced left and right signals. So when you sampled in
  stereo you were not getting stereo, just normal and inverted mono
  signals. If you want to sample in stereo with your present cable then
  try plugging into a stereo TRS output like a headphone socket.
  Otherwise you will need a Y adapter plugged into the Emax II sampling
  input so you can connect it to separate left and right unbalanced mono
  signals.

  Regards,

  Tristan 

  Saturday, August 29, 2009, 6:59:19 PM, you wrote:

  DB> 
  DB> Hi all,

  DB> Something wierd happened while I was recording with the Emax II
  DB> and I'd really like to understand why.

  DB> Here is the setup I used (I suspect this is the problem)

  DB> The bass and flute parts are homemade samples. They are stereo
  DB> samples, but they were sampled from a mono source. - a single
  DB> output on my soundcard. The used a stereo cable running from a
  DB> single output of the soundcard to the stereo in of the Emax II,
  DB> and sampled in stereo. When I later recorded the bass line of the
  DB> music, I recorded it in stereo, and it came out with the phase of one channel reversed:

  DB> http://www.type34.info/temp/My%20Compositions/basswave.jpg

  DB> I would have expected the two channels to be identical. Does
  DB> anyone have any idea why this happened?

  DB> Thanks,

  DB> Daniel

  DB> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

  DB> 
  DB> Messages in this topic (1) Reply (via web post) | Start a new topic
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [emax] Stereo sample phase reversal?

2009-08-30 by Bob Conner

I believe balanced output has a true ground and thusly less noise

Not sure what phase reversal would do, but might affect harmonics or create a noise cancellation

The 2 things I like about the Emax/Emax 2 are the many outputs that can be processed separatelty, and the limited limited amout of sampling memeory results in focusing on the best sample possible.

B

--- On Sat, 8/29/09, Daniel Baum <daniel@...> wrote:

Show quoted textHide quoted text

From: Daniel Baum <daniel@...>
Subject: Re: [emax] Stereo sample phase reversal?
To: emax@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, August 29, 2009, 11:05 PM

                  Thanks, 

The correct Y-cable works, of course. I had no idea that that was how balanced outputs work, so hence the error.

D.

Hello Daniel,

I would say the output of your soundcard is balanced TRS, where the

  tip and ring carry the same mono signal but with inverted polarity.

  However, the Emax II sampling input uses the tip and ring of the TRS

  plug as unbalanced left and right signals. So when you sampled in

  stereo you were not getting stereo, just normal and inverted mono

  signals. If you want to sample in stereo with your present cable then

  try plugging into a stereo TRS output like a headphone socket.

  Otherwise you will need a Y adapter plugged into the Emax II sampling

  input so you can connect it to separate left and right unbalanced mono

  signals.

Regards,

Tristan 

Saturday, August 29, 2009, 6:59:19 PM, you wrote:

DB> 

  DB> Hi all,

DB> Something wierd happened while I was recording with the Emax II

  DB> and I'd really like to understand why.

DB> Here is the setup I used (I suspect this is the problem)

DB> The bass and flute parts are homemade samples. They are stereo

  DB> samples, but they were sampled from a mono source. - a single

  DB> output on my soundcard. The used a stereo cable running from a

  DB> single output of the soundcard to the stereo in of the Emax II,

  DB> and sampled in stereo. When I later recorded the bass line of the

  DB> music, I recorded it in stereo, and it came out with the phase of one channel reversed:

DB> http://www.type34. info/temp/ My%20Composition s/basswave. jpg

DB> I would have expected the two channels to be identical. Does

  DB> anyone have any idea why this happened?

DB> Thanks,

DB> Daniel

DB> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

DB> 

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Re: [emax] Stereo sample phase reversal?

2009-08-30 by jammie

why are you sampling this way totally useless and a waste of memmory the reason you sample stereo is to catch the stereo feild of a recording sounds that are on the left and not the right and vice versa

from a mono source just sample it mono as it has no stereo field if you want it stereo then put it through an effects machine and sample the stereo output

ore sample it mono then use the lfo to pan the sample in the stereo field that way you save memory and its stereo on the way out of the machine

Show quoted textHide quoted text

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Tristan 
  To: Daniel Baum 
  Sent: Sunday, August 30, 2009 12:27 AM
  Subject: Re: [emax] Stereo sample phase reversal?

    Hello Daniel,

  I would say the output of your soundcard is balanced TRS, where the
  tip and ring carry the same mono signal but with inverted polarity.
  However, the Emax II sampling input uses the tip and ring of the TRS
  plug as unbalanced left and right signals. So when you sampled in
  stereo you were not getting stereo, just normal and inverted mono
  signals. If you want to sample in stereo with your present cable then
  try plugging into a stereo TRS output like a headphone socket.
  Otherwise you will need a Y adapter plugged into the Emax II sampling
  input so you can connect it to separate left and right unbalanced mono
  signals.

  Regards,

  Tristan 

  Saturday, August 29, 2009, 6:59:19 PM, you wrote:

  DB> 
  DB> Hi all,

  DB> Something wierd happened while I was recording with the Emax II
  DB> and I'd really like to understand why.

  DB> Here is the setup I used (I suspect this is the problem)

  DB> The bass and flute parts are homemade samples. They are stereo
  DB> samples, but they were sampled from a mono source. - a single
  DB> output on my soundcard. The used a stereo cable running from a
  DB> single output of the soundcard to the stereo in of the Emax II,
  DB> and sampled in stereo. When I later recorded the bass line of the
  DB> music, I recorded it in stereo, and it came out with the phase of one channel reversed:

  DB> http://www.type34.info/temp/My%20Compositions/basswave.jpg

  DB> I would have expected the two channels to be identical. Does
  DB> anyone have any idea why this happened?

  DB> Thanks,

  DB> Daniel

  DB> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

  DB> 
  DB> Messages in this topic (1) Reply (via web post) | Start a new topic
  DB> Messages | Files | Photos | Links | Database | Polls | Members | Calendar
  DB> Emax and Emax II User's Group Website

  DB> http://www.silveriafamily.com 
  DB> 
  DB> Change settings via the Web (Yahoo! ID required) 
  DB> Change settings via email: Switch delivery to Daily Digest | Switch format to Traditional
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  DB> Recent Activity
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  DB> 1
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  DB> by a good cause.
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  DB> Yahoo! Groups
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  DB> in 3 easy steps.
  DB> Connect with others.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [emax] Stereo sample phase reversal?

2009-08-30 by Daniel Baum

You're right of course. Anyway, it's all set up properly now and will sample correctly in stereo or  mono.

All of the outputs are connected up and I was able to record three stereo channels simultaneously in my DAW. 

I have a 16-input sound card, of which 14 are now in use (!).

BTW., using mono samples would make a lot of sense if there were some way to configure each stereo out as two mono outs. Am I right that this is impossible?

D.



    why are you sampling this way totally useless and a waste of memmory the reason you sample stereo is to catch the stereo feild of a recording sounds that are on the left and not the right and vice versa

  from a mono source just sample it mono as it has no stereo field if you want it stereo then put it through an effects machine and sample the stereo output

  ore sample it mono then use the lfo to pan the sample in the stereo field that way you save memory and its stereo on the way out of the machine

Show quoted textHide quoted text

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Tristan 
  To: Daniel Baum 
  Sent: Sunday, August 30, 2009 12:27 AM
  Subject: Re: [emax] Stereo sample phase reversal?

  Hello Daniel,

  I would say the output of your soundcard is balanced TRS, where the
  tip and ring carry the same mono signal but with inverted polarity.
  However, the Emax II sampling input uses the tip and ring of the TRS
  plug as unbalanced left and right signals. So when you sampled in
  stereo you were not getting stereo, just normal and inverted mono
  signals. If you want to sample in stereo with your present cable then
  try plugging into a stereo TRS output like a headphone socket.
  Otherwise you will need a Y adapter plugged into the Emax II sampling
  input so you can connect it to separate left and right unbalanced mono
  signals.

  Regards,

  Tristan 

  Saturday, August 29, 2009, 6:59:19 PM, you wrote:

  DB> 
  DB> Hi all,

  DB> Something wierd happened while I was recording with the Emax II
  DB> and I'd really like to understand why.

  DB> Here is the setup I used (I suspect this is the problem)

  DB> The bass and flute parts are homemade samples. They are stereo
  DB> samples, but they were sampled from a mono source. - a single
  DB> output on my soundcard. The used a stereo cable running from a
  DB> single output of the soundcard to the stereo in of the Emax II,
  DB> and sampled in stereo. When I later recorded the bass line of the
  DB> music, I recorded it in stereo, and it came out with the phase of one channel reversed:

  DB> http://www.type34.info/temp/My%20Compositions/basswave.jpg

  DB> I would have expected the two channels to be identical. Does
  DB> anyone have any idea why this happened?

  DB> Thanks,

  DB> Daniel

  DB> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

  DB> 
  DB> Messages in this topic (1) Reply (via web post) | Start a new topic
  DB> Messages | Files | Photos | Links | Database | Polls | Members | Calendar
  DB> Emax and Emax II User's Group Website

  DB> http://www.silveriafamily.com 
  DB> 
  DB> Change settings via the Web (Yahoo! ID required) 
  DB> Change settings via email: Switch delivery to Daily Digest | Switch format to Traditional
  DB> Visit Your Group | Yahoo! Groups Terms of Use | Unsubscribe 
  DB> Recent Activity
  DB> 2
  DB> New Members
  DB> 1
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  DB> Visit Your Group 
  DB> Give Back
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  DB> Get inspired
  DB> by a good cause.
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  DB> Get it Free!
  DB> easy 1-click access
  DB> to your groups.
  DB> Yahoo! Groups
  DB> Start a group
  DB> in 3 easy steps.
  DB> Connect with others.

  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re[2]: [emax] Stereo sample phase reversal?

2009-08-31 by Tristan

Hi Daniel,

If you want to use the stereo outs as mono outputs all you need to do
is go into dynamic processing and set 19 (panning) to hard left or
right for the voices you want separate. This will work with mono
samples as long as you don't have 20 (chorus) turned on. For stereo
samples, and mono samples using chorus, I believe the panning just
adjusts the stereo width i.e. centre panning is the left and right
samples sent to both left and right outputs while panning hard left
and right routes the left and right channels to opposing outputs.

As an example, if you had a drum kit consisting of kick, snare,
high-hat and cymbal you could have each of the four sounds coming out
on one of four separate mono outputs. Set the kick to output pair A
and pan hard left, set the snare to output pair A and pan hard right,
set the high-hat to output pair B and pan hard left and set the cymbal
to output pair B and pan hard right. Then when you hit the key ranges
for each sample you will get polyphonic output of each of the sounds
from the four separate mono outputs of the A and B stereo pairs. But
you will also still have two more stereo pairs to assign other sounds
to, either in mono or stereo

Regards,

Tristan

Monday, August 31, 2009, 5:23:32 AM, you wrote:

You're right of course. Anyway, it's all set up properly now and will sample correctly in stereo or mono.

All of the outputs are connected up and I was able to record three stereo channels simultaneously in my DAW.

I have a 16-input sound card, of which 14 are now in use (!).

BTW., using mono samples would make a lot of sense if there were some way to configure each stereo out as two mono outs. Am I right that this is impossible?

why are you sampling this way totally useless and a waste of memmory the reason you sample stereo is to catch the stereo feild of a recording sounds that are on the left and not the right and vice versa

from a mono source just sample it mono as it has no stereo field if you want it stereo then put it through an effects machine and sample the stereo output

ore sample it mono then use the lfo to pan the sample in the stereo field that way you save memory and its stereo on the way out of the machine

Show quoted textHide quoted text

----- Original Message ----- 
From: Tristan 
To: Daniel Baum 
Sent: Sunday, August 30, 2009 12:27 AM
Subject: Re: [emax] Stereo sample phase reversal?

Hello Daniel,

I would say the output of your soundcard is balanced TRS, where the
tip and ring carry the same mono signal but with inverted polarity.
However, the Emax II sampling input uses the tip and ring of the TRS
plug as unbalanced left and right signals. So when you sampled in
stereo you were not getting stereo, just normal and inverted mono
signals. If you want to sample in stereo with your present cable then
try plugging into a stereo TRS output like a headphone socket.
Otherwise you will need a Y adapter plugged into the Emax II sampling
input so you can connect it to separate left and right unbalanced mono
signals.

Regards,

Tristan 

Saturday, August 29, 2009, 6:59:19 PM, you wrote:

DB> 
DB> Hi all,

DB> Something wierd happened while I was recording with the Emax II
DB> and I'd really like to understand why.

DB> Here is the setup I used (I suspect this is the problem)

DB> The bass and flute parts are homemade samples. They are stereo
DB> samples, but they were sampled from a mono source. - a single
DB> output on my soundcard. The used a stereo cable running from a
DB> single output of the soundcard to the stereo in of the Emax II,
DB> and sampled in stereo. When I later recorded the bass line of the
DB> music, I recorded it in stereo, and it came out with the phase of one channel reversed:

DB> http://www.type34.info/temp/My%20Compositions/basswave.jpg

DB> I would have expected the two channels to be identical. Does
DB> anyone have any idea why this happened?

DB> Thanks,

DB> Daniel

DB> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

DB> 
DB> Messages in this topic (1) Reply (via web post) | Start a new topic
DB> Messages | Files | Photos | Links | Database | Polls | Members | Calendar
DB> Emax and Emax II User's Group Website

DB> http://www.silveriafamily.com 
DB> 
DB> Change settings via the Web (Yahoo! ID required) 
DB> Change settings via email: Switch delivery to Daily Digest | Switch format to Traditional
DB> Visit Your Group | Yahoo! Groups Terms of Use | Unsubscribe 
DB> Recent Activity
DB> 2
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DB> 1
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DB> Visit Your Group 
DB> Give Back
DB> Yahoo! for Good
DB> Get inspired
DB> by a good cause.
DB> Y! Toolbar
DB> Get it Free!
DB> easy 1-click access
DB> to your groups.
DB> Yahoo! Groups
DB> Start a group
DB> in 3 easy steps.
DB> Connect with others.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Re: Re[2]: [emax] Stereo sample phase reversal?

2009-08-31 by Daniel Baum

That works very well. Thanks!

Hi Daniel,

Regards,

Tristan

Monday, August 31, 2009, 5:23:32 AM, you wrote:

You're right of course. Anyway, it's all set up properly now and will sample correctly in stereo or mono.

All of the outputs are connected up and I was able to record three stereo channels simultaneously in my DAW.

I have a 16-input sound card, of which 14 are now in use (!).

BTW., using mono samples would make a lot of sense if there were some way to configure each stereo out as two mono outs. Am I right that this is impossible?

from a mono source just sample it mono as it has no stereo field if you want it stereo then put it through an effects machine and sample the stereo output

ore sample it mono then use the lfo to pan the sample in the stereo field that way you save memory and its stereo on the way out of the machine

Show quoted textHide quoted text

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Tristan 
  To: Daniel Baum 
  Sent: Sunday, August 30, 2009 12:27 AM
  Subject: Re: [emax] Stereo sample phase reversal?

  Hello Daniel,

  I would say the output of your soundcard is balanced TRS, where the
  tip and ring carry the same mono signal but with inverted polarity.
  However, the Emax II sampling input uses the tip and ring of the TRS
  plug as unbalanced left and right signals. So when you sampled in
  stereo you were not getting stereo, just normal and inverted mono
  signals. If you want to sample in stereo with your present cable then
  try plugging into a stereo TRS output like a headphone socket.
  Otherwise you will need a Y adapter plugged into the Emax II sampling
  input so you can connect it to separate left and right unbalanced mono
  signals.

  Regards,

  Tristan 

  Saturday, August 29, 2009, 6:59:19 PM, you wrote:

  DB> 
  DB> Hi all,

  DB> Something wierd happened while I was recording with the Emax II
  DB> and I'd really like to understand why.

  DB> Here is the setup I used (I suspect this is the problem)

  DB> The bass and flute parts are homemade samples. They are stereo
  DB> samples, but they were sampled from a mono source. - a single
  DB> output on my soundcard. The used a stereo cable running from a
  DB> single output of the soundcard to the stereo in of the Emax II,
  DB> and sampled in stereo. When I later recorded the bass line of the
  DB> music, I recorded it in stereo, and it came out with the phase of one channel reversed:

  DB> http://www.type34.info/temp/My%20Compositions/basswave.jpg

  DB> I would have expected the two channels to be identical. Does
  DB> anyone have any idea why this happened?

  DB> Thanks,

  DB> Daniel

  DB> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

  DB> 
  DB> Messages in this topic (1) Reply (via web post) | Start a new topic
  DB> Messages | Files | Photos | Links | Database | Polls | Members | Calendar
  DB> Emax and Emax II User's Group Website

  DB> http://www.silveriafamily.com 
  DB> 
  DB> Change settings via the Web (Yahoo! ID required) 
  DB> Change settings via email: Switch delivery to Daily Digest | Switch format to Traditional
  DB> Visit Your Group | Yahoo! Groups Terms of Use | Unsubscribe 
  DB> Recent Activity
  DB> 2
  DB> New Members
  DB> 1
  DB> New Files
  DB> Visit Your Group 
  DB> Give Back
  DB> Yahoo! for Good
  DB> Get inspired
  DB> by a good cause.
  DB> Y! Toolbar
  DB> Get it Free!
  DB> easy 1-click access
  DB> to your groups.
  DB> Yahoo! Groups
  DB> Start a group
  DB> in 3 easy steps.
  DB> Connect with others.

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