The Logic Off Topic list

It's really about the seperation of religion and state . Something which
must occur for a civilisation to move out of medieval mind sets .
Whilst I wouldn't say that prayer is not a useful response to tragedy it
must be accompanied by a reasonable course of action which may possibly
alleviate both the  situation and the circumstances that produced the
situation because prayer on it's own is unquantifiable in its effectiveness
and god told me to do it is not a reasonable defense in a court of law ,it
just gets you to a different sort of gaol with lots of drugs and so it
should .
I also think that multiculturalism is a form of social engineering that will
be shortly be discredited .Xenophobia is hard wired in ,in my opinion ,as it
is an extremely useful form of protection for an organism . When I arrived
in Australia as a boy ,back in the dawn of time , the official attitude was
assimilation and I still think it's the way to go .If a new arrival in a
country doesn't think it is wise to try to take on the social mores then
they condemn themselves to always being outsiders and when the shit hit's
the fan guess who's gonna be getting it . This is a perennial problem for
the chinese and the jews to mention just two examples  and it is the prime
cause of their self perpetuating victimhood[is that a word] in times of
social unrest .
As for zealots not speaking for their religions well I will believe that is
the case when their religious leaders constantly publicly and PRIVATELY
disown them . It is not enough to just tolerate\use them as the western
world is in the main fairly aware when someone is trying to josh us . If
Islam wants me to believe that it does not condone the use of violence
against civilians then it is going to have to mount a jihad against those of
it's own that do ,and when it catches them , which shouldn't be too hard ,
then it would even better if it was to treat them humanely because I'm sick
of being sickened by these people . If the Israeli government wants to
convince me or anyone that it really is trying to solve the problem of
Palestinian rage at their country being given away by the Brits in 1948 [The
Balfour declaration I believe]then they can start by not being so bloody
provocative . O.K ,O.K, the jews have good reason to be traumatised in their
mind set but guys ,it's getting serious ..and the current approach is NOT
working ,see N.Y. Sept 11th !
The world of international diplomacy is a world of greed and power ,in the
main greed from what I can see ,we seem to be constantly running flat out to
solve the problems we created in the past, seemed like a good idea at the
time maybe it was the only idea at the time .I guess that is the way it
always was and despite hollywoods best efforts to convince us of how strong
, brave , and good we are ,I suspect that that is the way it will always be
.Some people \corporations\nations just never seem to be able to get enough
to keep them satisfied . My answer is education .. human rights especially
the right to say no..and an understanding amongst the people of the planet
that what seems right may be very definitely wrong especially if Rupert
Murdoch\Ted Turner \Exxon \any Ayatollah,Pope ,Rabbi,Archbishop,Local
Guru\Charismatic World Leaders dont want you to think too much about it .
Always read between the lines and expose yourself to the wickedest comedy
you can find for at least one half hour a day just so you're ramped up and
ready for surprises cos we look like we gonna get some dont we .
----- Original Message -----
From: <maakbow@...>
To: <logic-ot@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2001 9:36 AM
Subject: [L-OT] Re: We are still alive...


> Zeke,and others
>  I can see what you are saying, but I think you are assuming some
> things. You are assuming that the actions of most religious zelouts,
> correctly reflects the teachings of these religions.
> I don't believe so.
> You drew a comparison with what happaned in Ireland last week, and
> this is what i will talk about as it is closer to my knowledge.
>
> I am not meaning for this to be a religeos discussion, but aim to use
> this as en example or comparison.
>
> Catholics and protestants both claim to be Christians.
> The name Christian being that used of 'one who followed Christ'in the
> period a while after the death of Christ.
>
> The best definition of what 'a follower of Christ'is, is undoubtedly
> found in the new testament section of the bible, as it it was written
> about this time.
>
> Neither the actions of the 'Catholics' or the "Protestants' in Ireland
> reflects these teachings.
>
> Nor did the actions of the crusaders in the middle age.
>
> Nor do the actions of many extreme so called fundamentalist
> Christians who's stressed teaching is often different to the
> fundamental teachings of the bible.
>
> It is my suspicion also, that extreme fundamentalist Muslims are also
> not true examples of their religions teachings.
> They talk of a Jehad or holy war, and the soldiers in the battle
> believe they are fighting a holy war, just like the crusaders  did.
>
> But the crusaders were no more than expendable pawns used in an
> effort to expand the dominion of an empire, that although they used
> the name Christian, they ruled thru fear and ignorance,..not things
> encouraged by Christ himself.
>
>
> So I come to the conclusion that real religion probably has nothing
> to do with this terrorism, as it has nothing really to do with the
> problems in Ireland. People  just take the name of a religion in a
> vain attempt to justify their actions.
>
> I have heard many first hand horror stories of what goes on in
> Ireland, that the press just doesn't hear about, and it's anything
> but Christian. Same goes for the 'Christians' and 'Muslims' fighting
> in former Yugoslavia, and the middle East.
>
>
> So it is not the religion that breeds violence, but people. People
> corrupted by power or the desire for power. The desire to force their
> will over the will of others.
> This is probably the reason behind the smallest of scables between as
> little as two people.Human pride and greed.
>  I believe many religions are misrepresented because of this.
>
>
> My own personal veiw on the terrorist situation...I know we will
> never WIN the war against terrorism but to me, [and i stress the TO
> ME here],there is no justice without punishment. I dont think it is
> an anger thing, though i would say most of us have been/are angry at
> what has happened, and even i have said 'nuke em all'..in anger. But
> to me there is something JUST about punishment.
> It doesn't seem right to me, that there should be no punishment, even
> if you can forgive those who do these things.
>
>
> Someone one on this list will know more than I about Islaam, and may
> be able to verify my suspicions,[I plan to read the Koran some day to
> find this out]
>
> I also hope no Sheite [did I spell that right?] fundamentalists read
> this, become offended, and firebomb my house.
>
> Maak Bow
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