The Logic Off Topic list

GAmoore - I think you're misunderstanding something here.  I'm making
neither argument.  I am indicating what some people have said on both sides
of the fence while responding to the person who posed a question that
regardless, we "could" have beaten Japan if atomic weaponry didn't exist.  I
don't think any military historian of note believes it was impossible for us
to beat Japan as of mid-1945 without atomic weaponry.  "Would" we have is
another question though almost no military historians believe we wouldn't
have, although it is very, very possible that the peace afterwards would
have been very different.  Also, you mixed up my comments with someone
else's about Truman and while I did write that below it disturbs me to have
my comments mixed with theirs, in no small part because I do not share their
opinions.  Anyway a few specific responses below.

----- Original Message -----
From: <GAmoore@...>
To: <logic-ot@yahoogroups.com>; <DCHAPSK@...>
Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2001 11:26 PM
Subject: Re: Re: [L-OT] Atomic Bomb/Japan


> >There is zero doubt that we "could" have beaten Japan without dropping
the
> >A-bomb.  The debate centers around at what cost that would have been.
Some
> >argue that we could have blockaded the island and that they were near
> >collapse and would have surrendered with "minimal" loss of life, at least
> >well under the results of the atomic weapons.
>
> If they weren't willing to surrender even AFTER two atomic bomb attacks
> an the firebombing of Tokyo, do you really think they would just
> surrender on their own?
>

Um, they were willing to surrender after two atomic bombs and the
firebombing of Tokyo - because they did - ???????  Of course you may be
right that they were unwilling to surrender after one atomic bomb and the
firebombing of Tokyo.  We will never know.

> If we had blockaded them, they would have perfected their own atomic
> bomb, they would have perfected their jet, their long range
> intercontential bomber, etc - all of which they were working on.
>

Speculative by definition.  Perhaps you should have written that they could
have done these things.

> As for bombing them, they could do like the Chinese did when bombed by
> Japan, build factories in caves under mountains - of which Japan has
> many.
>

Yes, they could do that.  Incidentally, I hope you do realize and that
others aren't ignorant that Japan was incapable of importing the raw
materials required to maintain a credible war effort.  I am by no means
stating that they couldn't have killed lots of people and may have resisted
any and all peaceful attempts.  Simply that they were at a point where they
were incapable of maintaining mass industry at a level even remotely
competitive with the West by that point.

> >Yes, but those lives would have been primarily soldiers.
>
> No, those primarily would have been Japanese women, children and elderly.
> I have spoken to older Japanese and they confirmed that they were taught
> to use spears to attack the expected American invaders. Watch the tapes
> of Japanese families jumping to their deaths in Okinawa because of the
> fear of American take over.
>
>
> >The responsibility for taking thousands of civilian lives rested on the
> >shoulders of Harry S. Truman.
>

PLEASE BE CAREFUL IN QUOTING!  I did not say this, yet it appears alongside
my other statements.

> Hirohito was reponsible for about 10,000,000 - 15,000,000 civilian deaths
> in China, Phillipines, Malaysia, Burma, etc. and a few in Pearl Harbor
> and probably some Korean comfort girls too. However, he lived quite a bit
> longer than Harry Truman. I think he just died 10 years ago at a ripe old
> age. So much for justice, huh?
>
> And what about that bastard Winston Churchill, who ordered the bombing of
> German cities? The US believed in pinpoint bombing of factories and
> military targets. But the Brits like firebombing cities like Dresden.
>

To be fair the Americans participated in Dresden and are suspected by some
people (not necessarily a significant number) of some warcrimes.  There was
a good Discovery or History documentary on this and they interviewed
American airmen.

> Yeah, there are all kinds of bastards and sons of bitches. Especially
> that choir boy Joseph Stalin. Did you hear what happened to the German
> people, when the Russian soldiers came to town?
>
> Why don't you quit trying to blame every thing on the United States.
> You're stupid fucks who don't know history.
>

I think you should refrain from using the tone of your last sentence.  And I
sure hope the prior sentence was not referring to me since I have played no
role in attempting to blame "every thing" on the United States.
Incidentally, I'm not so sure that the poster stated that Hirohito or Stalin
were innocent at all and I don't think they were making relative
distinctions, to be fair.

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