The Logic Off Topic list

First of all, I don't like the fact that my name now is used in the 
subject-line, in such a way that it can only be considered to be an 
insulting act.  If that's mature behaviour, well...

I won't change it.  That's not for me to do.


Further:

Thoughts from the mind of GAmoore@..., 9/24/01:
>Hendrik wrote
>>The US feels its interests are being threatened, and steps
>>in to secure... whatever, oil supply, other interests.  At the onset,
>
>Where does Europe get its oil?
>[...]
>  Or did we did we do for the world, including your world Hendrik?

Will you please, please stop quoting me entirely out of context? 
Responding to arguments like the above is completely pointless, since 
you manage to quote _anything_ in such a fashion that it supports 
your case.  I don't have the will,nor the time, nor the patience to 
refute all these mis-construed arguments.

I'll try to rectify the above nonsense one final time:
I said that often the US _choose_ to intervene in whatever situation. 
I didn't say they shouldn't, I didn't talk about WW-II, I didn't say 
intervention is always wrong, I didn't say I hate the US, I didn't 
say _anything_ like that.  I ONLY stated the very obvious fact that 
rather often the US have elected, out of their own free will (and 
superior hearts, I suppose), to get mixed up in foreign affairs.
OK, simple, got it?  BUT, I continued, that means that these 
self-elected wars then automatically make the argument valid that 
"the US only killed in war-acts".  Chicken -> egg -> chicken -> ad 
infinitum.

>  >it was _not_ (NOT) their war, but they _choose_ to intervene.
>
>When the Nazi's invaded France and Belgium and the rest, we should have
>stayed out of it. THe US, Britain and Canada choose to land at Normany
>Beach on D-Day (as in "Saving Private Ryan").

Once more: I didn't say any and all intervention is bad.  Please 
quote me saying otherwise.  For the rest I refer you to the foregoing.

>Hendrik, its great you're so liberal, and I think its good for people to
>question the US because any power should be questioned. But is your
>hatred for America so great you don't have much common sense left?

It's amazing how people can read things that just aren't there.  I 
don't hate America.  I'm not particularly fond of some of it's 
viewpoints & principles either, but that *not at all* the issue. 
Besides: my personal preferences are interesting for me, and me alone.
The only thing I do, in the context of this discussion, is put 
questionmarks where many don't put them -- out of ignorance, fear, or 
whichever other motive.  Sure the US has done good things.  But: 
equally sure the US has done horrid things.

Why is it that simply "not liking the way Bush goes about his 
business" (since, as far as I'm concerned, that's all this entire 
long-winded argument initially was about) apparently makes one the 
object of hate or ridicule?
If I knew I was stupid, well, then ridicule probably was justified. 
However, I happen to be rather smart I'm afraid, there happen to be 
millions of people agreeing with me (ony counting in the western 
"civilsed" world), I receive daily mail from LUGgers thanking me for 
saying reasonable things (Americans included)...
... and what's the public reaction?  "It's good that we nuked Japan" 
and justifications for any and all kinds of attrocities that have 
been committed in the name of "freedom"...


Right...  Sick of it...  Sick of the entire "all-time american heroes 
and we did nothing wrong" attitude.

The US f*cked up, multiple times, horribly.  Period.  And so did the 
Netherlands in our own past.  I KNOW.  And I'm not afraid to admit 
it.  Dutch forces have killed gods know how many innocent civilians 
in our own colonies, and gods know where else.  Slavery.  Etc.  I 
KNOW.  And the guilt and the shame is upon us.

"Guilt" and "shame" -- two words that _any_ decent human being should 
be able to spell before being allowed to call himself "civilised".

And once we acknowledge our guilt and our shame for the horrible 
things we have done, our forefathers have done, or things we have 
witnessed or condoned or simply conveniently closed our eyes for... 
once we can do _that_, then we maybe, hopefully can finally learn the 
lessons from the past.  Then we may finally understand that we, all 
of us, have made a mess out of it.  That there's very little to be 
proud of and brag about.
And then we can maybe finally start doing things differently.  For 
once.  Dear god, for once...


HJ
-- 
     Hendrik Jan Veenstra
     email: mailto:h@...
     www:   http://www.ision.nl/users/h/index.html