The Logic Off Topic list

Hi all,

It seems as if my initial posting of last Saturday has caused a 
discussion beyond my wildest expectations.  "Seems as if", since 
there have been quite a few more provocative posts, almost coinciding 
(or even preceding) mine, but for some odd reason I seem to be 
getting all the blame.  Fine, I don't have a problem with that. 
However, now that I seem to be the Big Bad Boy in the eyes of some, I 
feel the need to try to put a few things back in perspective (also 
triggered by a private recommendation I received from a fellow LUGger 
(thanks - you know who you are)).

First of all, my initial post was meant to express genuine concern 
regarding the way Bush expressed himself in his initial public 
speeches, and the effects such utterings could have (and have had). 
For some reason many seem to feel that I thus "trod on forbidden 
ground".  As if the US president is holy, or beyond any possible 
criticism.  Anyone is allowed his or her opinion, but with this kind 
of view of the US president I just don't agree.  Which is my right, I 
suppose.

Second, this discussion now seems to be all over the place. 
Palestines and Isrealis, WWII, colonialism, slavery, muslims and 
christians, you name it and it's there.  Ranging from sensible 
exchanges of arguments to bizarre justifications for various 
attrocities.  A few more days, and we'll be discussing the medieval 
crusades I suppose, and defend our own historic mass-murders as 
"reasonable loss of lives".  I would ask you all to please reconsider 
the usefulness of such arguments and debates.
It was never my intention to start such a wide-ranging debate.  My 
concern was with the present situation, and not with centuries of 
history.  Maybe we should all indeed be focussing on present affairs 
and leave the past to itself.  After all, talking about things that 
happened, say, 50 years ago 1) won't change anything and 2) is likely 
to be largely opinionated and not grounded in undisputable fact.
Maybe I was naive in not expecting such a storm to break loose.  OK, 
then I am naive.  As the Bible says: only a child will inherit the 
kingdom of god (or whatever the translation in English is).

Third, the bare fact that my post _did_ cause such a turmoil is 
meaningful in itself.  Loosely speaking there seem to be two parties. 
Those saying America does the right thing (with a minority claiming 
America has _always_ done the right thing), and those questioning 
(our outright attacking) many aspects of America's history and 
'wisdom'.
The details of such arguments are not important: it's all too easy to 
tackle any argument with a counter-argument, and keep doing so ad 
infinitum (8 years of philosophy has at least taught me _that_).
What is important however (imo) is that the positive image of the US 
nation (as a *political entity*, which is different from the 
Americans as individuals) obviously isn't shared by all the world. 
In fact, there are millions who have a rather different view on US 
politics. (please realise that I'm not venting an opinion, but just 
making an observation).
Since not all of them can be completely unreasonable, ill-informed 
idiots, there probably is some valid reason for such a critical 
attitude.  In itself this needn't be a problem.  There surely is 
sufficient reason to be critical w.r.t. almost _any_ nation's 
political past (which western country hasn't meddled in slavery or 
colonies for example?).

My impression however is that the wide-ranging irritation with the US 
(which obviously is present, not just in this group but all over the 
world, from peaceful Western Europe to violent Afghanistan) mainly 
has to do with the (equally wide-ranging) unwillingness to 
acknowledge the validity of such a critical attitude.  The people 
making the most noise seem to be those that scream that America isn't 
to blame for anything, at best grudgingly admitting that "Vietnam 
possible wasn't such a good idea".
Probably it's this attitude of infallibility and self-righteousness 
that gets to people's nerves and makes them feel compelled to open 
wide the dusty cupboards of history.  Pointless maybe, but 
understandable.  Especially since this attitude isn't now all of a 
sudden displayed for the first time in history.

The bottomline is that we are all "sinners".  And our forefathers 
were.  We all are to blame for all the violence in the world. 
Karma...  and therefore we all are justified to warn each other as 
soon as we think the other "might lose it".  That's not a matter of 
pointing the finger and blaming the other for all the horror in the 
world -- it's a matter of genuine concern for the well-being of 
humanity.  If we don't help each other to get rid of this dead weight 
of millenia of karma, then who will?  If we don't help each other to 
finally wake up, open our eyes, and face reality, no matter how 
painful that may be (for either party), then who will?
The truth may be out there (to quote the X-files), but it's up to us 
to discover it.  And as individuals we're way too ignorant and small 
to "make it on our own".  What we need is each other.  The courage to 
face our own 'dark side' and those of others, and to acknowledge that 
we all are not _that_ different in the end.  As long as one person or 
any group of persons thinks they're in whichever way superior to 
another, our karma will contimnue to pile up, and the sorrow of 
humankind will continue.

Original sin, as the Bible describes it, was the eating of the fruit 
from "the tree of knowledge of good and evil".  That's where our 
sorrow started: when we started to distinguish one from the other, 
blaming the other for their evil, and taking pride in our own good.

All my original message intended to do was to warn for possible 
short-sightedness (something I've re-iterated several times).  To 
warn against simplistic statements, and dangerous demagogy.  To warn 
against eyes closed shut and unreceptive ears.  All I wanted was to 
check if we're awake enough...

Those accusing me of terrorist sympathies, cultural hatred or other 
such qualities, are free to have their opinion.  I'm not really hurt 
or offended.  I am however surprised at how completely people can 
misunderstand each other.
In the heat of the argument, I may have said things that were "wrong" 
-- even though I've tried at all times to stay reasonable, to not 
take the (sometimes obvious) bait that was offered on numerous 
occasions.  Maybe I failed in my attempts, and did indeed say 
unreasonable things. I don't have the time or energy to re-read all 
posts to minutely check them for anything that could be interpreted 
wrongly.  However, if I did mess up anywhere, I am genuinely sorry, 
en hereby offer my apologies to anyone offended.


Are we awake enough?



peace,
Hendrik Jan

-- 
     Hendrik Jan Veenstra
     email: mailto:h@...
     www:   http://www.ision.nl/users/h/index.html